RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#24 2019-20

[Roddy B for 3]

Based on last year? Absolutely not. Not by any measure. You would have to have to have a space jam level stretch of logic to make that statement.

Any idea of Mitchell being better than Lowry is based on a projection. Are people seriously upset that others are projecting something different than them?

It seems like Mitchell was going to get in the top 25 but a bunch of Raptors fans decided to change that and vote THEIR guy in.

Do you think the Jazz would have been as good last year with Lowry instead of Mitchell?

I don't.

Honestly, I don't think Toronto would have been as good with Mitchell instead of Lowry.

I think Mitchell is a better #1 and Lowry is a better #3 or #4

Lowry has spent years as the best player of a perennial 50 win team. He was just the 2nd best player on a championship team. Raw stats dont favour Mitchell. Impact stats absolutely dont favour mitchell. The idea that Mitchell was better last year than Lowry is the idea that scoring is more important than everything else in basketball (at average efficiency, no less), which is ridiculous. Lowry is a much better playmaker, defender, leader and is more efficient. Mitchell scores more at league average efficiency.

Lowry was better. Without question. If you want to point to age and say Mitchell will be better because he's younger and Lowry will hit the wall soon, so be it. Others dont project the same.

Way to dodge my question.

[Roddy B for 3]

Based on last year? Absolutely not. Not by any measure. You would have to have to have a space jam level stretch of logic to make that statement.

Any idea of Mitchell being better than Lowry is based on a projection. Are people seriously upset that others are projecting something different than them?

It seems like Mitchell was going to get in the top 25 but a bunch of Raptors fans decided to change that and vote THEIR guy in.

Do you think the Jazz would have been as good last year with Lowry instead of Mitchell?

I don't.

Honestly, I don't think Toronto would have been as good with Mitchell instead of Lowry.

I think Mitchell is a better #1 and Lowry is a better #3 or #4

Seems a little dismissive to talk about Lowry as a #3 or #4 when he just won a championship as a #2 and was probably better in that role than anyone in the league except Draymond Green.

Yeah Pascal was the #2

[iggymcfrack]

It seems like Mitchell was going to get in the top 25 but a bunch of Raptors fans decided to change that and vote THEIR guy in.

Do you think the Jazz would have been as good last year with Lowry instead of Mitchell?

I don't.

Honestly, I don't think Toronto would have been as good with Mitchell instead of Lowry.

I think Mitchell is a better #1 and Lowry is a better #3 or #4

Seems a little dismissive to talk about Lowry as a #3 or #4 when he just won a championship as a #2 and was probably better in that role than anyone in the league except Draymond Green.

Yeah Pascal was the #2

If you want to look solely in terms of PPG, then yeah Lowry was the #3 the same way that Magic Johnson was the #3 behind Jamal Wilkes for his second ring with the Lakers. In terms of his importance to the offense, it's not remotely accurate.

[Roddy B for 3]

Seems a little dismissive to talk about Lowry as a #3 or #4 when he just won a championship as a #2 and was probably better in that role than anyone in the league except Draymond Green.

Yeah Pascal was the #2

If you want to look solely in terms of PPG, then yeah Lowry was the #3 the same way that Magic Johnson was the #3 behind Jamal Wilkes for his second ring with the Lakers. In terms of his importance to the offense, it's not remotely accurate.

And now defense dosen't matter? Didn't Pascal just come in at #23 while Lowry came in at #24?

A great, switchy post defender, rim protector is a better defender than a great 6'1" PG defender.

Pascal also scored more and was the #2 option to put the ball in the basket.

Lowry was great at getting the ball to the scorers though. That is true.

Rebounds matter too btw.

Seriously build a team around Kyle Lowry and they will be crap.

[mademan]

It seems like Mitchell was going to get in the top 25 but a bunch of Raptors fans decided to change that and vote THEIR guy in.

Do you think the Jazz would have been as good last year with Lowry instead of Mitchell?

I don't.

Honestly, I don't think Toronto would have been as good with Mitchell instead of Lowry.

I think Mitchell is a better #1 and Lowry is a better #3 or #4

Lowry has spent years as the best player of a perennial 50 win team. He was just the 2nd best player on a championship team. Raw stats dont favour Mitchell. Impact stats absolutely dont favour mitchell. The idea that Mitchell was better last year than Lowry is the idea that scoring is more important than everything else in basketball (at average efficiency, no less), which is ridiculous. Lowry is a much better playmaker, defender, leader and is more efficient. Mitchell scores more at league average efficiency.

Lowry was better. Without question. If you want to point to age and say Mitchell will be better because he's younger and Lowry will hit the wall soon, so be it. Others dont project the same.

Way to dodge my question.

Do i think Lowry, who has been the engine of a perennial 50 win team, can be the 2nd best player on a 50 win team in place of Mitchell last year? Without freakin question. lol. Thats not a serious question, so i dismissed it

[Roddy B for 3]

PG has the most replacement level players in the league. It is the most deep position. To be an outstanding PG you have to separate yourself from a stacked field. Lowry is not separated from that.

Don is closer to the top of the SG list than Lowry is to the top of the PG list. Would you rather have the #4 SG and #10 PG or #10 SG and #4PG?

Of course the first option because 4-10 on the PG list is much closer than 4-10 on the SG list.

SG is more important because it is more rare.

Donovan is a much better scorer and he can play with a PG. Whereas Lowry is better at "PG things" but now you need a scorer. Which is harder to find.

A complete team has a guy like Lowry and a #1 scorer.

Guys like Lowry are easier to find than guys like Mitchell

[iggymcfrack]

PG has the most replacement level players in the league. It is the most deep position. To be an outstanding PG you have to separate yourself from a stacked field. Lowry is not separated from that.

Don is closer to the top of the SG list than Lowry is to the top of the PG list. Would you rather have the #4 SG and #10 PG or #10 SG and #4PG?

Of course the first option because 4-10 on the PG list is much closer than 4-10 on the SG list.

SG is more important because it is more rare.

Donovan is a much better scorer and he can play with a PG. Whereas Lowry is better at "PG things" but now you need a scorer. Which is harder to find.

A complete team has a guy like Lowry and a #1 scorer.

Guys like Lowry are easier to find than guys like Mitchell

Like this matters at all in the modern NBA. In all but the most extreme cases (Harden and Westbrook this season which people still think is going to work somehow), it doesn't matter at all which position you play as long as you have at least one player to handle the ball and at least one player to protect the rim. I'd definitely rather play Lowry or Paul with a mediocre PG than play Mitchell with a mediocre PG.

[Roddy B for 3]

PG has the most replacement level players in the league. It is the most deep position. To be an outstanding PG you have to separate yourself from a stacked field. Lowry is not separated from that.

Don is closer to the top of the SG list than Lowry is to the top of the PG list. Would you rather have the #4 SG and #10 PG or #10 SG and #4PG?

Of course the first option because 4-10 on the PG list is much closer than 4-10 on the SG list.

SG is more important because it is more rare.

Donovan is a much better scorer and he can play with a PG. Whereas Lowry is better at "PG things" but now you need a scorer. Which is harder to find.

A complete team has a guy like Lowry and a #1 scorer.

Guys like Lowry are easier to find than guys like Mitchell

Like this matters at all in the modern NBA. In all but the most extreme cases (Harden and Westbrook this season which people still think is going to work somehow), it doesn't matter at all which position you play as long as you have at least one player to handle the ball and at least one player to protect the rim. I'd definitely rather play Lowry or Paul with a mediocre PG than play Mitchell with a mediocre PG.

You try to get into a deep argument with me about RPM and OBN etc. Now all that matters is one ball handler and one rim protected. Ok.

[gh123]

I see you have never watched Draymond Green play basketball. Stick to box-scores.

I did, he was horrible offensively and not elite defensively last season.

How do you get "not elite defensively"? He was the best defensive player in the entire league once the playoffs started and the only one who was even close was Embiid. Like if Draymond's not elite defensively, who is? Just 1964 Bill Russell?

Gobert was elite, PG was, playoff Kawhi was, Biid was. Donkey wasn't the same he was in previous year. He had a very bad regular season overall, in absolutely no way a top15, top 30, I'll give you that.

[iggymcfrack]

I did, he was horrible offensively and not elite defensively last season.

How do you get "not elite defensively"? He was the best defensive player in the entire league once the playoffs started and the only one who was even close was Embiid. Like if Draymond's not elite defensively, who is? Just 1964 Bill Russell?

Gobert was elite, PG was, playoff Kawhi was, Biid was. Donkey wasn't the same he was in previous year. He had a very bad regular season overall, in absolutely no way a top15, top 30, I'll give you that.

Gobert was awful in the postseason yet again. Draymond’s had 5 playoffs in a row where he was miles better defensively than Gobert’s ever been any playoffs in his career. I’ll give you that Draymond wasn’t a top 30 player during the regular season, but he was still one of the 10 best players in the postseason and with his track record there over the last 5 years I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

[gh123]

How do you get "not elite defensively"? He was the best defensive player in the entire league once the playoffs started and the only one who was even close was Embiid. Like if Draymond's not elite defensively, who is? Just 1964 Bill Russell?

Gobert was elite, PG was, playoff Kawhi was, Biid was. Donkey wasn't the same he was in previous year. He had a very bad regular season overall, in absolutely no way a top15, top 30, I'll give you that.

Gobert was awful in the postseason yet again. Draymond’s had 5 playoffs in a row where he was miles better defensively than Gobert’s ever been any playoffs in his career. I’ll give you that Draymond wasn’t a top 30 player during the regular season, but he was still one of the 10 best players in the postseason and with his track record there over the last 5 years I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

We'll see. He'll have a good load to carry next season without Klay and KD and I don't think he's up to the task, especially that he got paid already.

[babyjax13]

How do you get "not elite defensively"? He was the best defensive player in the entire league once the playoffs started and the only one who was even close was Embiid. Like if Draymond's not elite defensively, who is? Just 1964 Bill Russell?

Gobert was elite, PG was, playoff Kawhi was, Biid was. Donkey wasn't the same he was in previous year. He had a very bad regular season overall, in absolutely no way a top15, top 30, I'll give you that.

Gobert was awful in the postseason yet again. Draymond’s had 5 playoffs in a row where he was miles better defensively than Gobert’s ever been any playoffs in his career. I’ll give you that Draymond wasn’t a top 30 player during the regular season, but he was still one of the 10 best players in the postseason and with his track record there over the last 5 years I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Gobert was - by far - Utah's best player in the playoffs. It's a pretty big stretch to say he was awful when he executed his role perfectly, and we were able to figure out how to defend Houston over the last three games (just not able to execute offensively). Sure, his scoring went down, but he was at least efficient (and otherwise just as impactful). Everyone else on the team but Favors dropped off a cliff, it was bizarre. Rudy's stats also got drug down due to being in one game for only 23 minutes (fouls). He was still doing 13/12/3.1b per 36 (obviously per 36 isn't a good metric, RS he was at 18/15/2.6b per 36, by far his best year).

[KrazyP]

Lowry was tied for 5th with 11 votes the last poll, and suddenly leads the next one with 99 votes (and counting). It's no coincident that the moment a Raptors player is chosen, the other Raps player gets an unbelievable jump in votes.
If you pay attention to the voting pattern in this project, the #2 voted player in a vote always gets picked in the next poll (exceptions: the injured Durant, and Jrue Holiday after a very close poll).
This is no co-incident and it's a little sad to see how a fanbase manipulates a very intriguing project.

Its a little sad to see fans get blinded by brands over substance.

Lowry wasn't a high draft pick, he doesnt have a major shoe deal and theres no flash to his game. That said, he makes a huge impact every time he's on the floor and clearly makes his team play better.

Lowry has finished #15, #9, #10, #7 and #25 overall in ESPN RPM the last 5 years and he's pretty much been consistently in the top 20 range of every advanced stat that measures actual impact.....that kind of stuff doesnt happen by fluke.

Lowry being voted #24 in this poll is perfectly inline with his actual impact.

This isn't about Lowry or any other player. This is about a fanbase that used their number advantage to get their own player voted.
And if you're really gonna use ESPN RPM to justify Lowry being picked, what would you say about CP3 being 12th, 1st, 2nd 3rd, 7th and 2nd in the years this stat is available?
Again. This isn't about Lowry. There's just no way to deny the fact that he was picked because Raps have the largest fanbase in here, as evidenced by previous votes he recieved and the circumstances with Siakam having just been voted.

Lowry ranked 24th is perfectly in line with his advanced impact stats. He was also the 2nd best player on an NBA championship team this year. I dont understand why you are so hurt over it.

Instead of being jealous of the size of the Raps fanbase, why dont you take a step back and try to assess whether or not Lowry is actually deserving of a 24th overall ranking based on his actual impact on the floor and not his brand value.

[iggymcfrack]

Gobert was elite, PG was, playoff Kawhi was, Biid was. Donkey wasn't the same he was in previous year. He had a very bad regular season overall, in absolutely no way a top15, top 30, I'll give you that.

Gobert was awful in the postseason yet again. Draymond’s had 5 playoffs in a row where he was miles better defensively than Gobert’s ever been any playoffs in his career. I’ll give you that Draymond wasn’t a top 30 player during the regular season, but he was still one of the 10 best players in the postseason and with his track record there over the last 5 years I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Gobert was - by far - Utah's best player in the playoffs. It's a pretty big stretch to say he was awful when he executed his role perfectly, and we were able to figure out how to defend Houston over the last three games (just not able to execute offensively). Sure, his scoring went down, but he was at least efficient (and otherwise just as impactful). Everyone else on the team but Favors dropped off a cliff, it was bizarre. Rudy's stats also got drug down due to being in one game for only 23 minutes (fouls). He was still doing 13/12/3.1b per 36 (obviously per 36 isn't a good metric, RS he was at 18/15/2.6b per 36, by far his best year).

Favors was the best player for the Jazz by far in the playoffs, not Gobert. He’s much more switchable and was better on both ends of the floor.

[babyjax13]

Gobert was awful in the postseason yet again. Draymond’s had 5 playoffs in a row where he was miles better defensively than Gobert’s ever been any playoffs in his career. I’ll give you that Draymond wasn’t a top 30 player during the regular season, but he was still one of the 10 best players in the postseason and with his track record there over the last 5 years I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Gobert was - by far - Utah's best player in the playoffs. It's a pretty big stretch to say he was awful when he executed his role perfectly, and we were able to figure out how to defend Houston over the last three games (just not able to execute offensively). Sure, his scoring went down, but he was at least efficient (and otherwise just as impactful). Everyone else on the team but Favors dropped off a cliff, it was bizarre. Rudy's stats also got drug down due to being in one game for only 23 minutes (fouls). He was still doing 13/12/3.1b per 36 (obviously per 36 isn't a good metric, RS he was at 18/15/2.6b per 36, by far his best year).

Favors was the best player for the Jazz by far in the playoffs, not Gobert. He’s much more switchable and was better on both ends of the floor.

Favors did excellent in his role, but Rudy was also amazing in his (a much larger role). We built our entire defensive scheme around forcing Harden and Paul into Gobert, and it worked once people bought in (and there were interviews w/players corroborating this, people weren't buying into the scheme and once they did, it worked ... game 3).

Favors playoff stats: 12p 7r 1a 1s 2b 66% TS 20mpg
Gobert playoff stats: 11p 10r 1a .6s 2.6b 67%TS 30mpg

Favors advanced: 1.9OBPM 6.9DBPM .3VORP 27.9PER
Gobert advanced: -.7OWS 7.5DPM .3VORP 20.5PER

Replace Gobert with Favors in game 3, and we don't win. Impact stats favor Rudy's defense (contra your assertion) in a larger role that Favors just can't fill (and I say this while also claiming that Favors is a top 10 to 12 center...so really, really good). This "Rudy can't switch" and "Rudy gets exploited in the playoffs" narritive is lazy and wrong.

[Roddy B for 3]

Lowry has spent years as the best player of a perennial 50 win team. He was just the 2nd best player on a championship team. Raw stats dont favour Mitchell. Impact stats absolutely dont favour mitchell. The idea that Mitchell was better last year than Lowry is the idea that scoring is more important than everything else in basketball (at average efficiency, no less), which is ridiculous. Lowry is a much better playmaker, defender, leader and is more efficient. Mitchell scores more at league average efficiency.

Lowry was better. Without question. If you want to point to age and say Mitchell will be better because he's younger and Lowry will hit the wall soon, so be it. Others dont project the same.

Way to dodge my question.

Do i think Lowry, who has been the engine of a perennial 50 win team, can be the 2nd best player on a 50 win team in place of Mitchell last year? Without freakin question. lol. Thats not a serious question, so i dismissed it

Take 10ppg away from Utah last year and they don't make the playoffs. Ok. So Lowry dgives assists to make up the difference that does matter. But not was much.

Who is Lowry giving the ball to to make. Up that 10ppg? Ingles?

Utah played at a slow pace very half court centric. They played ezcellent defeense and excellent defense slows opponents offenses. So the pace is slow.

Utah relied on fast break opportunities comming from their great defense. If that didn't work they tried to get Gobert the ball near the basket and if that didn't work Donovan Mitchell would usually get the ball and either iso, drive and kick or PnR with Gobert.

Lowry insn't the drive and kick guy or iso guy Don is.

Now we are rellying on Ingles to be our offense.

Where do those extra 10ppg come from on a already offense hungry team?

[mademan]

Way to dodge my question.

Do i think Lowry, who has been the engine of a perennial 50 win team, can be the 2nd best player on a 50 win team in place of Mitchell last year? Without freakin question. lol. Thats not a serious question, so i dismissed it

Take 10ppg away from Utah last year and they don't make the playoffs. Ok. So Lowry dgives assists to make up the difference that does matter. But not was much.

Who is Lowry giving the ball to to make. Up that 10ppg? Ingles?

Utah played at a slow pace very half court centric. They played ezcellent defeense and excellent defense slows opponents offenses. So the pace is slow.

Utah relied on fast break opportunities comming from their great defense. If that didn't work they tried to get Gobert the ball near the basket and if that didn't work Donovan Mitchell would usually get the ball and either iso, drive and kick or PnR with Gobert.

Lowry insn't the drive and kick guy or iso guy Don is.

Now we are rellying on Ingles to be our offense.

Where do those extra 10ppg come from on a already offense hungry team?

Kyle Lowry/FVV
Demar derozan
Og Anonuby
Serge Ibaka/Siakam
Jonas Val

Was a top 5 offense in the NBA not 2 years ago. Objectively, player by player, how much less offensive talent is on this Raps team than the current Jazz? And do you honestly believe that Donovan Mitchell can lead this team to 59 wins?

[Roddy B for 3]

Do i think Lowry, who has been the engine of a perennial 50 win team, can be the 2nd best player on a 50 win team in place of Mitchell last year? Without freakin question. lol. Thats not a serious question, so i dismissed it

Take 10ppg away from Utah last year and they don't make the playoffs. Ok. So Lowry dgives assists to make up the difference that does matter. But not was much.

Who is Lowry giving the ball to to make. Up that 10ppg? Ingles?

Utah played at a slow pace very half court centric. They played ezcellent defeense and excellent defense slows opponents offenses. So the pace is slow.

Utah relied on fast break opportunities comming from their great defense. If that didn't work they tried to get Gobert the ball near the basket and if that didn't work Donovan Mitchell would usually get the ball and either iso, drive and kick or PnR with Gobert.

Lowry insn't the drive and kick guy or iso guy Don is.

Now we are rellying on Ingles to be our offense.

Where do those extra 10ppg come from on a already offense hungry team?

Kyle Lowry/FVV
Demar derozan
Og Anonuby
Serge Ibaka/Siakam
Jonas Val

Was a top 5 offense in the NBA not 2 years ago. Objectively, player by player, how much less offensive talent is on this Raps team than the current Jazz? And do you honestly believe that Donovan Mitchell can lead this team to 59 wins?

Ok. So again you didn't answer my question.

DeRozen was allNBA that year. Valancunias is a very good offense 5. All the other players fill important roles.

Lowry was the oil of that offense. DeRozen was the power from the perimeter and in the post they had a great slasher in Pascal and a great iso guy in Val.

Pascal and Val needed the ball in certain spots to maximize their efficiency which is what Lowry did and is a reason I have him as a top 40 player. That team has a lot of offensive talent

Offensively,
Gobert and Val are similar
Ibaka and Pascal>Crowder and Favors
OG<Ingles
DeRozen>>Rubio

That team is clearly more offensively talented than Utah.

Who was Utahs backup PG last season? Exum? And fresh off a fantastic finals performance Raptors fans are already belittling FVV... Shameful.

Best non Lowry or Mitchell players from those two teams are
-Derozen
-Gobert
-Val
-Ingles/FVV
-Pascal

All the others are average or worse imo.

That list has two Jazz and 4 raps.

[In2ition]

Still another game on team USA where Mitchell shoots under 50% from the field with more turnovers than assists against a team that would struggle greatly with any NBA team. Sounds like a clear MVP candidate this season to me. Is this just a small sample size or a trend?

[NZB2323]

Kyle Lowry will be 33 next year and Mitchell will be 23. Mitchell is killing it with Team USA and will have more spacing with Conley and Bojan. Lowry has been drinking champagne and will have less spacing with Kawhi gone.

Okay? Those are all speculative in nature. While I appreciate the hot take, you really can't back any of this up.

It's not really a hot take to say a 33 year old point guard will be worse at age 34 and a 22 year old shooting guard will be better at 23.

Mitchell was the only player on team USA that scored double digits against France, and he put up 29, 6, and 4 on 52/50/100% shooting splits. He's primed for a monster season.

We've seen this before with Derrick Rose, Westbrook, Durant, Harden, ect. killing it with team USA and then having a monster season. We've also seen point guards be worse at age 33 and 34. Chris Paul and Lowry being voted above Mitchell is a joke.