RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#25 2019-20

[mademan]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

[Duffman100]

Or maybe the real championship team had multiple season ending injuries to its best players.

Im starting to hate that your team won the championship.

Ya'll really upset that Lowry and Siakam can be considered top 25 players? You honestly think thats ridiculous? The poster Duff replied to said that Porzingis is better than both Lowry and Siakam. Considering Dallas will have 2 players better than the Raps best, there's no reason for them to be a worse team (even when accounting for conference), and i'd imagine the smart bet is that they will be. How do you reconcile that?

And you realize even with the injuries, the Raps beat the next 2 best teams in the NBA with Philly post trades and Milwaukee. Impressove, especially when very few 'experts' had them coming out of the East

Whaaa whaaa people don't agree with me that Siakim and Lowry are too 25 players whaa whaa

What kind of silly argument is it that the team with the best two players is automatically the better team?

If your going to ask questions put thought into them.

Dallas has the better top two but 3-15 favors Raptors pretty handily. The Raptors also have chemistry from playing together. The Raptors are also in the easier conference.

What annoys me about Lowry and Siakam getting into the top 25 is they weren't looking like they would make it into the top 25 and then Raptors fans make a concerted effort to change the results.

Like if a bunch of Lakers fans used their numbers to have Kobe put onto the top 5 list.

I wouldn't say I'm upset. I'm just going to tell y'all y'all are wrong.

And you can come at me with weak questions like "if Dallas has the better top two players how come people expect them to be worse?????".

But that's a weak question. Because uhmm uhmm basketball isn't 2 vs 2

Or that other guy who disagreed with 1 of the 11 players I said play PG as well as Lowry or better.

He highlights ONE name and dismisses everything. So he agreed their are 10other PGs of similar ability to Lowry?

You guys are cry babies

Look how I get into with one Raptor fan and then I ended up getting quotes by about 5 different of you.

Y'all were a 50+ win team for about half a decade. Then traded one of your franchises most loyal and products players ever, for come year rental of an MVP contender.

Your team almost lost in the second round and then beat the regular season win leaders and the actual MVP in the ECF. In the finals your team played against the best dynasty since MJ but that team was missing it's (arguably) best and third best players. Their starting 5 missed most of the series and their backup 5 played through a broken collar bone.

Toronto won the series.

Toronto had:
Above average starting 5/great backup 5
Above average starting 4/???
MVP contender starting 3/???
Average to above average starting 2/???
Top 10 PG/great backup PG

And that's how you squeaked by Phiillly, beat Milwaukee, and beat injured Warriors

Congratulations bon beating Orlando too. Only about 14 teams could've done that last year.

Kind of sounds like you're crying now...

[LoveMyRaps]

Or maybe it's possible that a championship team had multiple players in the top 25. Crazy thing I know.

Or maybe the real championship team had multiple season ending injuries to its best players.

Im starting to hate that your team won the championship.

Sure. Many teams have won titles because of favorable events.

We will went through Orlando, Philly and Milwaukee. Had the hardest playoff path. It isn't all about the GS series.

People love to talk about the bruised up Warriors, while ignoring the fact that the Raptors had the hardest path to the finals in recent memory (easily the hardest path since the 2011 Mavs).

Oh and they also tend to forget that Kawhi played the entire playoffs injured. Then there's Siakam who suffered a major injury (game 3 vs Philly - Calf Contusion) and was hindered significantly because of it. Then there's Kyle who pretty much had a broken thumb (torn ligaments) throughout the entire playoffs and had to undergo surgery right after the championship. THOSE ARE THE RAPTORS 3 BEST PLAYERS.
Then there's OG, the teams 3rd best defender, who had to miss the entire postseason because he underwent an emergency appendectomy.

But sure lets just talk about the Warriors and completely ignore the fact that the Raptors went through 6 bonafide all-stars + the league MVP (Giannis, Embiid, Simmons, Butler, Middleton, Vucevic) + a borderline all-star (Tobias Harris) to get to the finals with only 2 all-stars (Kawhi + a 32 year old Lowry who most people believe shouldn't have been an all-star).
And once they got to the finals they only had to play against 3 more bonafide all-stars (Curry, Klay, Green).

Also I forgot to mention that the Raptors were down in every Eastern Conference series. (1-0 vs Magic, 2-1 vs Philly, 2-0 vs Bucks).

People are still sooooo salty over a Canadian team winning the championship and I absolutely love it.
All these tears should be enough to put an end to the Amazon rain-forest fires.

[Roddy B for 3]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

Since so many Raptor fans are comming at me idk whoni told what. I think I already told you this so in case I didn't I'll say it again.

I look at these types of lists the same way I do a NBA reset draft in NBA 2K.

Who ever had the first pick picked Kwahi, whoever had the second pick picked Gianni's, etc.

Now we are at pick #23 and Pascal, Mitchell, Paul and Lowry on the board. I would pick Mitchell because he's the best building block imo.

Lowry, Pascal or Paul might be better fits for teams that already have a Kwahi or a Gianni's but since they were already picked and we have noone else on our team who would I want? A guy who can carry the load or a guy who is really good at helping others carry the load.

Lowry/Pascal/Paul might be better as role players but as the primary guy (the hardest role) Mitchell is better than them.

[KqWIN]

Here's my thoughts on #25

Nikola Vucevic - IMO, he has the best argument as a "current value" candidate. He had a monster 18/19 season that had him at near the very top of all the +/- numbers. While I don't expect that to be his new norm, I expect to him to continue to play at very high level as a two way play at age 29. Steve Clifford is a great big man coach and Vuc is reaping the benefits.

Chris Paul - He's an all time great, but age is catching up to him. Perhaps the most important thing to consider with Paul is that he's playing for OKC. I highly doubt CP3 is going to pour his all into this franchise as he waits for his next destination. There's no reason for him to do so. It benefits no one. He's not playing for a new contract, and with his status he is not auditioning for a new team. If another team becomes interested, they would prefer him to go hard either.

I've also seen his w/o Harden numbers cited as a reference point for his new norm...but that is so misleading because those minutes come in a small sample against bench units. Derrick Favors, for example, averaged 21/14/2/1/2 per36 with 67% TS w/o Gobert. Nobody is expecting that to be Favs new norm, and for good reason. These are bench units that he's crushing at C.

Donovan Mitchell - He's the only "breakout" candidate on the board, and he's a good one. He has strong indicators for development. He's entering his 3rd year after a sophomore slump, which is a typical time to breakout. He's been reported as the breakout star of team USA camp. He's healthy and not coming off a major injury like last season. The team around him is now much more well constructed for him to succeed. Simmons and Doncic have already been selected. Donovan Mitchell already has a stronger current value profile based on the +/- statistics and IMO has a better case for development based on his experience and room for growth within his game.

Victor Oladipo - The man I have admittedly overlooked due to injury. Somebody in the other thread cited his targeted return date as Dec 1. That would put him at about 20 missed games by default, plus whatever load management they put on top of that. I'm not quite sure the best way to factor these injuries into the top players for 19/20...I understand if you include him or if you rule him out because of the injuries.

[mademan]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

Since so many Raptor fans are comming at me idk whoni told what. I think I already told you this so in case I didn't I'll say it again.

I look at these types of lists the same way I do a NBA reset draft in NBA 2K.

Who ever had the first pick picked Kwahi, whoever had the second pick picked Gianni's, etc.

Now we are at pick #23 and Pascal, Mitchell, Paul and Lowry on the board. I would pick Mitchell because he's the best building block imo.

Lowry, Pascal or Paul might be better fits for teams that already have a Kwahi or a Gianni's but since they were already picked and we have noone else on our team who would I want? A guy who can carry the load or a guy who is really good at helping others carry the load.

Lowry/Pascal/Paul might be better as role players but as the primary guy (the hardest role) Mitchell is better than them.

Thats fine. People can have whatever opinions they want. Just realize that there is very little objective data that backs up Mitchell being better than any of those 3. You can make a discussion with Paul because of missed games (but Kawhi was voted 1, so i dunno how much that counts), but all 3 guys have better or similar basic stats while holding a big lead in impact statistics.

And the whole "who's better to lead a team" doesnt really matter unless that guy is actually good enough to lead a team to a title. I dont think any of those guys are good enough to be the best player on teams. At least guys like Pascal and Lowry have shown that theyre good enough to be big ancillary stars on a title team

[Effigy]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

I think people like yourself are confused about what we are doing here. We aren’t ranking what they did last year, we are projecting what they will do next year. So there’s no ‘objective data’ we can point to for a season that hasn’t happened yet. Mitchell is rising and Lowry is declining. Mitchell has real weapons around him now that will help him improve. Lowry lost his best weapon and didn’t replace him.

[Roddy B for 3]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

Since so many Raptor fans are comming at me idk whoni told what. I think I already told you this so in case I didn't I'll say it again.

I look at these types of lists the same way I do a NBA reset draft in NBA 2K.

Who ever had the first pick picked Kwahi, whoever had the second pick picked Gianni's, etc.

Now we are at pick #23 and Pascal, Mitchell, Paul and Lowry on the board. I would pick Mitchell because he's the best building block imo.

Lowry, Pascal or Paul might be better fits for teams that already have a Kwahi or a Gianni's but since they were already picked and we have noone else on our team who would I want? A guy who can carry the load or a guy who is really good at helping others carry the load.

Lowry/Pascal/Paul might be better as role players but as the primary guy (the hardest role) Mitchell is better than them.

Thats fine. People can have whatever opinions they want. Just realize that there is very little objective data that backs up Mitchell being better than any of those 3. You can make a discussion with Paul because of missed games (but Kawhi was voted 1, so i dunno how much that counts), but all 3 guys have better or similar basic stats while holding a big lead in impact statistics.

And the whole "who's better to lead a team" doesnt really matter unless that guy is actually good enough to lead a team to a title. I dont think any of those guys are good enough to be the best player on teams. At least guys like Pascal and Lowry have shown that theyre good enough to be big ancillary stars on a title team

This will be my last comment to you.

I believe we just value players differently on these "best player" types of lists.

I look for the guy who will give me the best chance at winning the most games as my primary star out of the players left

You look for a guy who will fit with others (none will be better than him so idk why you wouldn't look for the pieces that fit around the guy secondly instead of primarily.)

You like super role players to be your featured player better than low end #1 options.

[spicy6]

Either mitchell or mccollum.

[TheNG]

Let's continue with these polls until we reach the player ranked 1000th.

[mdonnelly1989]

It's a shame people think CP3 and Lowry are better than Spida. He will prove people wrong now that he actually has offensive talent around him for once.

He's comfortably better than both who are clearly washed up at this point.

[mdonnelly1989]

Let's continue with these polls until we reach the player ranked 1000th.

I wish we didn't stop at 25. At least go to 30 IMO.

[Kampuchea]

CP3 and Mitchell still not voted in? Lowry and Siakim over them is a shame, these results are completely tarnished.

[Duffman100]

It's a shame people think CP3 and Lowry are better than Spida. He will prove people wrong now that he actually has offensive talent around him for once.

He's comfortably better than both who are clearly washed up at this point.

How are Lowry and Paul washed up? Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

[mdonnelly1989]

It's a shame people think CP3 and Lowry are better than Spida. He will prove people wrong now that he actually has offensive talent around him for once.

He's comfortably better than both who are clearly washed up at this point.

How are Lowry and Paul washed up? Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

Way past prime at this point.

[mademan]

It's a shame people think CP3 and Lowry are better than Spida. He will prove people wrong now that he actually has offensive talent around him for once.

He's comfortably better than both who are clearly washed up at this point.

How are Lowry and Paul washed up? Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

Way past prime at this point.

past prime and washed are 2 different things. Melo is washed. Paul is past prime

[Waylanderz]

It's a shame people think CP3 and Lowry are better than Spida. He will prove people wrong now that he actually has offensive talent around him for once.

He's comfortably better than both who are clearly washed up at this point.

Did we not watched game 6 of the NBA finals? Lowry's epic performance in game 6 is hardly an indication of someone who is washed.

[LoveMyRaps]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

I think people like yourself are confused about what we are doing here. We aren’t ranking what they did last year, we are projecting what they will do next year. So there’s no ‘objective data’ we can point to for a season that hasn’t happened yet. Mitchell is rising and Lowry is declining. Mitchell has real weapons around him now that will help him improve. Lowry lost his best weapon and didn’t replace him.

I fail to see this ''rise'' you're referring to. You can even argue he declined last year... But rise?





Duff said it best:

Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

[Effigy]

I dont care where you rank the Raps guys. I have no idea what top 10 point guard list you had, but i have zero issues with Lowry being in the back end of the top 10. I just dont like bad arguments. Mitchell has a bad argument over either Raptor. Booker has a terrible argument over either Raptor. As does Drummond. When youre argument has no objective data behind it (it doesnt) and you cant even point to the ol' Kobe fan team defense, all youre saying is "I know better, Mitchell>Lowry". And youre surprised youre getting push back.

Defend your position with objective data, or just say "this is what i think" and move on.

I think people like yourself are confused about what we are doing here. We aren’t ranking what they did last year, we are projecting what they will do next year. So there’s no ‘objective data’ we can point to for a season that hasn’t happened yet. Mitchell is rising and Lowry is declining. Mitchell has real weapons around him now that will help him improve. Lowry lost his best weapon and didn’t replace him.

I fail to see this ''rise'' you're referring to. You can even argue he declined last year... But rise?





Duff said it best:

Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

Are you saying he peaked at 21? That he won't get any better? 22 years old and he's already washed?
Ridiculous.

[mademan]

I think people like yourself are confused about what we are doing here. We aren’t ranking what they did last year, we are projecting what they will do next year. So there’s no ‘objective data’ we can point to for a season that hasn’t happened yet. Mitchell is rising and Lowry is declining. Mitchell has real weapons around him now that will help him improve. Lowry lost his best weapon and didn’t replace him.

I fail to see this ''rise'' you're referring to. You can even argue he declined last year... But rise?





Duff said it best:

Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

Are you saying he peaked at 21? That he won't get any better? 22 years old and he's already washed?
Ridiculous.

No, but improvement isnt linear (as seen by his 1st and 2nd year numbers). I was telling people this about the Tatum hype last year; we all hope for improvement, but the truth is, players stagnate as much as they improve in this game. Theres a laundry list of promising young players who never took that next step