RealGM Top 25 Player Poll-#25 2019-20

[Ballerhogger]

Voted Kd

[lobosloboslobos]

After Pascal and Lowry I'm assuming Gasol will get this #25 spot.

Or maybe it's possible that a championship team had multiple players in the top 25. Crazy thing I know.

Or maybe they had a top 3 guy and two 25-40 guys as well as a deep well fitting roster? Maybe they were a buzzer beater in a game 7 away from losing in the 2nd round? Maybe they would have lost to GSW even without KD if Klay didn't get hurt?

so apparently the era of the superteam is over? for all the talk about superstars joining forces what you're saying is that a team with 1 superstar and a handful of other good but not elite players can now win a title? good to know. or maybe...Siakim and Lowry are elite and easily belong in the top 25?

[Roddy B for 3]

Or maybe it's possible that a championship team had multiple players in the top 25. Crazy thing I know.

Or maybe they had a top 3 guy and two 25-40 guys as well as a deep well fitting roster? Maybe they were a buzzer beater in a game 7 away from losing in the 2nd round? Maybe they would have lost to GSW even without KD if Klay didn't get hurt?

so apparently the era of the superteam is over? for all the talk about superstars joining forces what you're saying is that a team with 1 superstar and a handful of other good but not elite players can now win a title? good to know. or maybe...Siakim and Lowry are elite and easily belong in the top 25?

Haven't you noticed people comparing last year's Raptors to the '11 Mavs and '04 Pistons more than the '12-'13 Heat or the GSW/Cleveland teams that have been winning lately?

Because they weren't considered a superteam.

Most people don't even think they should have won the title if not for injuries to GSW and they WERE a buzzer beater away from OT in a game 7 in the second round. It's not like they dominated the field.

[KyRo23]

Or maybe it's possible that a championship team had multiple players in the top 25. Crazy thing I know.

Or maybe they had a top 3 guy and two 25-40 guys as well as a deep well fitting roster? Maybe they were a buzzer beater in a game 7 away from losing in the 2nd round? Maybe they would have lost to GSW even without KD if Klay didn't get hurt?

so apparently the era of the superteam is over? for all the talk about superstars joining forces what you're saying is that a team with 1 superstar and a handful of other good but not elite players can now win a title? good to know. or maybe...Siakim and Lowry are elite and easily belong in the top 25?

Either that or the Warriors were injured.

[LoveMyRaps]

I think people like yourself are confused about what we are doing here. We aren’t ranking what they did last year, we are projecting what they will do next year. So there’s no ‘objective data’ we can point to for a season that hasn’t happened yet. Mitchell is rising and Lowry is declining. Mitchell has real weapons around him now that will help him improve. Lowry lost his best weapon and didn’t replace him.

I fail to see this ''rise'' you're referring to. You can even argue he declined last year... But rise?





Duff said it best:

Honestly, people are just talking out of their ass.

Are you saying he peaked at 21? That he won't get any better? 22 years old and he's already washed?
Ridiculous.

When did I say any of that? lool you're making yourself look foolish.

[Effigy]

I fail to see this ''rise'' you're referring to. You can even argue he declined last year... But rise?





Duff said it best:

Are you saying he peaked at 21? That he won't get any better? 22 years old and he's already washed?
Ridiculous.

When did I say any of that? lool you're making yourself look foolish.

Well I said he is going to get better and your response to that was to show me a chart of stats with an argument that you don’t believe he improved last season. So you seem to be arguing that he isn’t. So will he improve or won’t he? Pick a side if you want people to stop laughing at you.

[LoveMyRaps]

Are you saying he peaked at 21? That he won't get any better? 22 years old and he's already washed?
Ridiculous.

When did I say any of that? lool you're making yourself look foolish.

Well I said he is going to get better and you seem to be arguing that he isn’t. So will he or won’t he? Pick a side if you want people to stop laughing at you.

lolol again when did i say that or imply any of that? all i said was he didn't experience any sort of rise last year which is what you were claiming by saying ''Mitchell is rising''.
Like mademan said in a post above ''players stagnate as much as they improve''.
I like Mitchell, and am fairly confident he'll eventually become the all-star he's destined to be. But you can't claim he's rising based on nothing. Could be another couple of years before he takes the next step.

[TheBoi10]

Dallas has the better top two but 3-15 favors Raptors pretty handily.

No they don't , your guys aren't that good hence why the Mavericks are projected to be mediocre. Porzingis is highly overrated.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Whoa.

Been away, just saw the last two results. Recency bias? Huge contingent of Raptors fans?

Obviously, there aren't (m)any Lamarcus Aldridge fans. Yikes.

[Asif16]

Whoa.

Been away, just saw the last two results. Recency bias? Huge contingent of Raptors fans?

Obviously, there aren't (m)any Lamarcus Aldridge fans. Yikes.

Kyle Lowry is debatable, I get it. He's 33yrs old and could be going for a decline year. Lowry could easily not be a top 25 player next season I agree.

But the amount of people who are bashing Siakam being in the top 25...is ludicrous and just plain ignorant. If you really think the Raptors won the whole goddamn title with just one top 25 player...who happened to be out of practically half the regular season last year, I just dont know what to say to ya'll

[AbeVigodaLive]

Whoa.

Been away, just saw the last two results. Recency bias? Huge contingent of Raptors fans?

Obviously, there aren't (m)any Lamarcus Aldridge fans. Yikes.

Kyle Lowry is debatable, I get it. He's 33yrs old and could be going for a decline year. Lowry could easily not be a top 25 player next season I agree.

But the amount of people who are bashing Siakam being in the top 25...is ludicrous and just plain ignorant. If you really think the Raptors won the whole goddamn title with just one top 25 player...who happened to be out of practically half the regular season last year, I just dont know what to say to ya'll

I dig Siakam and assume he'll keep getting better. I'm actually fine with him being anywhere in this range if the exercise is to project the 2020 season.

The Lowry one seems a bit mind-boggling to me... even if I acknowldge that the guy does so many cool little things to win games on both ends of the court.

[Asif16]

Whoa.

Been away, just saw the last two results. Recency bias? Huge contingent of Raptors fans?

Obviously, there aren't (m)any Lamarcus Aldridge fans. Yikes.

Kyle Lowry is debatable, I get it. He's 33yrs old and could be going for a decline year. Lowry could easily not be a top 25 player next season I agree.

But the amount of people who are bashing Siakam being in the top 25...is ludicrous and just plain ignorant. If you really think the Raptors won the whole goddamn title with just one top 25 player...who happened to be out of practically half the regular season last year, I just dont know what to say to ya'll

I dig Siakam and assume he'll keep getting better. I'm actually fine with him being anywhere in this range if the exercise is to project the 2020 season.

The Lowry one seems a bit mind-boggling to me... even if I acknowldge that the guy does so many cool little things to win games on both ends of the court.

Thats fair and I think most raps fans will agree with you on that. Like I said, Lowry not being a top 25 player next season is defintely probable.

I guess we're biased because he constantly gets hated on but somehow continues to plays solid basketball, even on the days he cant seem to score. And the underlying stats speak for themselves. People look at the scoring and figure thats all you need for basketball

[AbeVigodaLive]

Kyle Lowry is debatable, I get it. He's 33yrs old and could be going for a decline year. Lowry could easily not be a top 25 player next season I agree.

But the amount of people who are bashing Siakam being in the top 25...is ludicrous and just plain ignorant. If you really think the Raptors won the whole goddamn title with just one top 25 player...who happened to be out of practically half the regular season last year, I just dont know what to say to ya'll

I dig Siakam and assume he'll keep getting better. I'm actually fine with him being anywhere in this range if the exercise is to project the 2020 season.

The Lowry one seems a bit mind-boggling to me... even if I acknowldge that the guy does so many cool little things to win games on both ends of the court.

Thats fair and I think most raps fans will agree with you on that. Like I said, Lowry not being a top 25 player next season is defintely probable.

I guess we're biased because he constantly gets hated on but somehow continues to plays solid basketball, even on the days he cant seem to score. And the underlying stats speak for themselves. People look at the scoring and figure thats all you need for basketball

Definitely probable... indeed.

Couldn't it be argued he'd have been hard-pressed to make the top 25 in all but the 2016/17 seasons?

So to see him rebound to that level multiple seasons later seems like more than a reach and more than debatable.

[mademan]

I dig Siakam and assume he'll keep getting better. I'm actually fine with him being anywhere in this range if the exercise is to project the 2020 season.

The Lowry one seems a bit mind-boggling to me... even if I acknowldge that the guy does so many cool little things to win games on both ends of the court.

Thats fair and I think most raps fans will agree with you on that. Like I said, Lowry not being a top 25 player next season is defintely probable.

I guess we're biased because he constantly gets hated on but somehow continues to plays solid basketball, even on the days he cant seem to score. And the underlying stats speak for themselves. People look at the scoring and figure thats all you need for basketball

Definitely probable... indeed.

Couldn't it be argued he'd have been hard-pressed to make the top 25 in all but the 2016/17 seasons?

So to see him rebound to that level multiple seasons later seems like more than a reach and more than debatable.

I think this is the first year that there's a solid argument that Lowry wasnt top 25. Besides the 2019 season, keeping him out of the top 25 (top 15 some seasons) would be absolutely ridiculous. Like a guy like Kyrie is univerally considered top 25, but this is legit the first year he's been better, 2016 as well, depending on how you weigh playoffs vs missed games

[Effigy]

When did I say any of that? lool you're making yourself look foolish.

Well I said he is going to get better and you seem to be arguing that he isn’t. So will he or won’t he? Pick a side if you want people to stop laughing at you.

lolol again when did i say that or imply any of that? all i said was he didn't experience any sort of rise last year which is what you were claiming by saying ''Mitchell is rising''.
Like mademan said in a post above ''players stagnate as much as they improve''.
I like Mitchell, and am fairly confident he'll eventually become the all-star he's destined to be. But you can't claim he's rising based on nothing. Could be another couple of years before he takes the next step.

I fail to see this ''rise'' you're referring to. You can even argue he declined last year

So for the record, you disagree with me that he’s rising, but you also think he will improve into an all-star. Ok. I guess to you there’s a difference. To me there’s not. If you expect a guy to improve and become an all-star then he’s rising.

It appears you’ve painted yourself into a corner and can’t admit it. That’s fine, but there’s no point in arguing about it. Best of luck to you.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Thats fair and I think most raps fans will agree with you on that. Like I said, Lowry not being a top 25 player next season is defintely probable.

I guess we're biased because he constantly gets hated on but somehow continues to plays solid basketball, even on the days he cant seem to score. And the underlying stats speak for themselves. People look at the scoring and figure thats all you need for basketball

Definitely probable... indeed.

Couldn't it be argued he'd have been hard-pressed to make the top 25 in all but the 2016/17 seasons?

So to see him rebound to that level multiple seasons later seems like more than a reach and more than debatable.

I think this is the first year that there's a solid argument that Lowry wasnt top 25. Besides the 2019 season, keeping him out of the top 25 (top 15 some seasons) would be absolutely ridiculous. Like a guy like Kyrie is univerally considered top 25, but this is legit the first year he's been better, 2016 as well, depending on how you weigh playoffs vs missed games

Since when? The seasons he'd be considered is actually relatively small.

We're discounting all seasons before he got to Toronto in 2013... and that season, too... considering he averaged 11.6 ppg. He was essentially an 18/7 guy for a couple of seasons... then had a couple of aforementioned breakout seasons before dropping regressing statistically in each of the past two seasons.

The one cool thing about Lowry is that he's been pretty solid to good on both sides of the ball during his Raptors tenure.

[mademan]

Definitely probable... indeed.

Couldn't it be argued he'd have been hard-pressed to make the top 25 in all but the 2016/17 seasons?

So to see him rebound to that level multiple seasons later seems like more than a reach and more than debatable.

I think this is the first year that there's a solid argument that Lowry wasnt top 25. Besides the 2019 season, keeping him out of the top 25 (top 15 some seasons) would be absolutely ridiculous. Like a guy like Kyrie is univerally considered top 25, but this is legit the first year he's been better, 2016 as well, depending on how you weigh playoffs vs missed games

Since when? The seasons he'd be considered is actually relatively small.

We're discounting all seasons before he got to Toronto in 2013... and that season, too... considering he averaged 11.6 ppg. He was essentially an 18/7 guy for a couple of seasons... then had a couple of aforementioned breakout seasons before dropping regressing statistically in each of the past two seasons.

The one cool thing about Lowry is that he's been pretty solid to good on both sides of the ball during his Raptors tenure.

18/7 as well as probably the best defensive pg in the NBA (overall, some are better man2man). There's a reason impact stats rate him so highly. RPM by year starting in 2019 and going back

15
9
10
7
26

It's not a 'be-all' stat, but it does a good job capturing impact of teams featured players. Like i said before, there's a reason Lowry has been at the helm of a perennial 50 win team. Thats not an easy thing to do at all

[AbeVigodaLive]

I think this is the first year that there's a solid argument that Lowry wasnt top 25. Besides the 2019 season, keeping him out of the top 25 (top 15 some seasons) would be absolutely ridiculous. Like a guy like Kyrie is univerally considered top 25, but this is legit the first year he's been better, 2016 as well, depending on how you weigh playoffs vs missed games

Since when? The seasons he'd be considered is actually relatively small.

We're discounting all seasons before he got to Toronto in 2013... and that season, too... considering he averaged 11.6 ppg. He was essentially an 18/7 guy for a couple of seasons... then had a couple of aforementioned breakout seasons before dropping regressing statistically in each of the past two seasons.

The one cool thing about Lowry is that he's been pretty solid to good on both sides of the ball during his Raptors tenure.

18/7 as well as probably the best defensive pg in the NBA (overall, some are better man2man). There's a reason impact stats rate him so highly. RPM by year starting in 2019 and going back

15
9
10
7
26

It's not a 'be-all' stat, but it does a good job capturing impact of teams featured players. Like i said before, there's a reason Lowry has been at the helm of a perennial 50 win team. Thats not an easy thing to do at all

Sure.

But my bias shows with the RPM stats. I'm simply not a fan (for better or worse).

The outliers/anomalies are so obvious that I tend to largely dismiss them en masse (unless it's to support my argument in some way).

Last season, Danny Green > Kyle Lowry and Kevan Looney > Draymond Green.





[Note: Heck, Kawhi Leonard was 5th on his own team for RPM. That stat does love some Raptors though... 5 in the top 31.]

[mademan]

Since when? The seasons he'd be considered is actually relatively small.

We're discounting all seasons before he got to Toronto in 2013... and that season, too... considering he averaged 11.6 ppg. He was essentially an 18/7 guy for a couple of seasons... then had a couple of aforementioned breakout seasons before dropping regressing statistically in each of the past two seasons.

The one cool thing about Lowry is that he's been pretty solid to good on both sides of the ball during his Raptors tenure.

18/7 as well as probably the best defensive pg in the NBA (overall, some are better man2man). There's a reason impact stats rate him so highly. RPM by year starting in 2019 and going back

15
9
10
7
26

It's not a 'be-all' stat, but it does a good job capturing impact of teams featured players. Like i said before, there's a reason Lowry has been at the helm of a perennial 50 win team. Thats not an easy thing to do at all

Sure.

But my bias shows with the RPM stats. I'm simply not a fan (for better or worse).

The outliers/anomalies are so obvious that I tend to largely dismiss them en masse (unless it's to support my argument in some way).

Last season, Danny Green > Kyle Lowry and Kevan Looney > Draymond Green.





[Note: Heck, Kawhi Leonard was 5th on his own team for RPM. That stat does love some Raptors though... 5 in the top 31.]

1. There's very few Raps fans who will tell you Kawhi was the best player on the raps during the RS. Lowry was very much still the engine of the team. Kawhi went Lebron-esque in the playoffs, and thats all anybody remembers, but he was very underwhelming during the RS. Ditto for D.Green who was not even a top 30 player during the RS last year

2. RPM usually tells you how someone does in their role. Lowry, as the best player of his team, having a high RPM year over year is incredibly telling. A role player who consistently plays his limited role very well will always score well on impact stats. Shouldnt be a reason to dismiss the stats at all.

[AbeVigodaLive]

18/7 as well as probably the best defensive pg in the NBA (overall, some are better man2man). There's a reason impact stats rate him so highly. RPM by year starting in 2019 and going back

15
9
10
7
26

It's not a 'be-all' stat, but it does a good job capturing impact of teams featured players. Like i said before, there's a reason Lowry has been at the helm of a perennial 50 win team. Thats not an easy thing to do at all

Sure.

But my bias shows with the RPM stats. I'm simply not a fan (for better or worse).

The outliers/anomalies are so obvious that I tend to largely dismiss them en masse (unless it's to support my argument in some way).

Last season, Danny Green > Kyle Lowry and Kevan Looney > Draymond Green.





[Note: Heck, Kawhi Leonard was 5th on his own team for RPM. That stat does love some Raptors though... 5 in the top 31.]

1. There's very few Raps fans who will tell you Kawhi was the best player on the raps during the RS. Lowry was very much still the engine of the team. Kawhi went Lebron-esque in the playoffs, and thats all anybody remembers, but he was very underwhelming during the RS. Ditto for D.Green who was not even a top 30 player during the RS last year

2. RPM usually tells you how someone does in their role. Lowry, as the best player of his team, having a high RPM year over year is incredibly telling. A role player who consistently plays his limited role very well will always score well on impact stats. Shouldnt be a reason to dismiss the stats at all.

I was clear in not saying the stat should be dismissed entirely.

But you strike why that stat can sometimes cause issues in discussions. For example, if a guy's ranking is being used to put him in the top 25 of the entire league... just because he does his role well... especially when that role is much more limited...