The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[The_Hater]

If fans fall for Pillar or Cowgill they won't have any problems finding a new favorite.

In his defense, in all my years I haven't seen very many average MLB ball players who were more exciting to watch than Kevin Pillar. His becoming a fan favourite was no fluke.

He was a hot dog who would intentionally take bad routes to balls so he could dive.

It got to the point where pat tabler was calling him for it during telecasts.

He was the anti devon white.

But kudos to pillar for making a career out of it. Talk about maxing out!

Pillar’s advanced defensive stats point to an elite CF in Toronto. 2nd best defensive CF in MLB for a couple of seasons. So there’s a strong likelihood that your bias is dead wrong.

But we dont want facts to interfere with such a well thought out opinion now do we? Your head might explode.

[BigLeagueChew]

Devon White was an average to above mlb hitter though posting wrc+ of 100 or more and three consecutive years of 5 fwar or more while comfortably being a table setting leadoff switch hitter.

You would likely be better off with an average mlb hitters wrc+ in centre field than the DRS from a defensive one.

[Black Watch]

If fans fall for Pillar or Cowgill they won't have any problems finding a new favorite.

In his defense, in all my years I haven't seen very many average MLB ball players who were more exciting to watch than Kevin Pillar. His becoming a fan favourite was no fluke.

He was a hot dog who would intentionally take bad routes to balls so he could dive.

It got to the point where pat tabler was calling him for it during telecasts.

He was the anti devon white.

But kudos to pillar for making a career out of it. Talk about maxing out!

This, 100%

The guys at Statcast spent the better part of a podcast episode pointing this out a couple years ago, when his Fangraphs RngR dropped from 21.8 in 2016 to 1.6 in 2017.

[Black Watch]

In his defense, in all my years I haven't seen very many average MLB ball players who were more exciting to watch than Kevin Pillar. His becoming a fan favourite was no fluke.

He was a hot dog who would intentionally take bad routes to balls so he could dive.

It got to the point where pat tabler was calling him for it during telecasts.

He was the anti devon white.

But kudos to pillar for making a career out of it. Talk about maxing out!

Pillar’s advanced defensive stats point to an elite CF in Toronto. 2nd best defensive CF in MLB for a couple of seasons. So there’s a strong likelihood that your bias is dead wrong.

But we dont want facts to interfere with such a well thought out opinion now do we? Your head might explode.

In 2017 he was diving just to catch up.

https://www.mlb.com/video/share/statcast-pillar-owings/c-1381347483?tid=6479266

[The_Hater]

He was a hot dog who would intentionally take bad routes to balls so he could dive.

It got to the point where pat tabler was calling him for it during telecasts.

He was the anti devon white.

But kudos to pillar for making a career out of it. Talk about maxing out!

Pillar’s advanced defensive stats point to an elite CF in Toronto. 2nd best defensive CF in MLB for a couple of seasons. So there’s a strong likelihood that your bias is dead wrong.

But we dont want facts to interfere with such a well thought out opinion now do we? Your head might explode.

In 2017 he was diving just to catch up.

https://www.mlb.com/video/share/statcast-pillar-owings/c-1381347483?tid=6479266

Just because you want to focus on 2017 doesn’t mean that 2015-16 didn’t ever happen, he was one of the best in MLB those 2 seasons and the stats do support this.

[Schad]

Pillar was an excellent defensive CF. Then he lost a step, and became a good defensive CF. Then he lost another step, as tends to happen to CFs around that age, and now he's a very average CF. Soon he won't be worth playing in CF at all.

The sometimes-questionable routes were always a component of his game, but he had the recovery speed (and aerial ability) to overcome that and still get to a lot of balls that most outfielders would not. But those days ain't coming back.

[Black Watch]

Pillar’s advanced defensive stats point to an elite CF in Toronto. 2nd best defensive CF in MLB for a couple of seasons. So there’s a strong likelihood that your bias is dead wrong.

But we dont want facts to interfere with such a well thought out opinion now do we? Your head might explode.

In 2017 he was diving just to catch up.

https://www.mlb.com/video/share/statcast-pillar-owings/c-1381347483?tid=6479266

Just because you want to focus on 2017 doesn’t mean that 2015-16 didn’t ever happen, he was one of the best in MLB those 2 seasons and the stats do support this.

We can focus on 2018, too, if that helps (because he was even worse than in 2017).

Yes, he was excellent defensively for two seasons, and the stats do support this, and then for the two subsequent seasons he was not, and the stats do support this.

But diving to make high-probability catches is what had him passing the eye test for so many fans. And it's also what made Pike Petriello call him out:

Read on Twitter

He wrote up a good article on it:

It's undeniably one of the most exciting plays of the year. So why wasn't the Catch Probability elite? Because it was pretty easy to find similar plays where the outfielder didn't need to dive. As we've heard ex-Major Leaguers tell us, some diving catches -- though not all, most certainly -- are for effect.

... the data shows Pillar actually slowed somewhat approximately two seconds before the ball got there before turning the jets on to make the dive. We found similar catches (slightly harder, actually) by Ben Revere and Jacoby Ellsbury from last year, too. Pillar gets credit for the catch made. He just doesn't get extra credit for the dive.

He even went on MLB Network to talk about this and other outfield dives and what value they bring (often none):

https://www.mlb.com/unified-player/embed/petriello-on-outfield-defense-c1392490383?t=mlb-default-atp&siteSection=mlb_articles&playerContext=MLB%20News&autoPlay=true&playerId=embed_player_petriello-on-outfield-defense-c1392490383&clickToPlay=true

[The_Hater]

In 2017 he was diving just to catch up.

https://www.mlb.com/video/share/statcast-pillar-owings/c-1381347483?tid=6479266

Just because you want to focus on 2017 doesn’t mean that 2015-16 didn’t ever happen, he was one of the best in MLB those 2 seasons and the stats do support this.

We can focus on 2018, too, if that helps (because he was even worse than in 2017).

Yes, he was excellent defensively for two seasons, and the stats do support this, and then for the two subsequent seasons he was not, and the stats do support this.

But diving to make high-probability catches is what had him passing the eye test for so many fans. And it's also what made Pike Petriello call him out:

Read on Twitter

He wrote up a good article on it:

It's undeniably one of the most exciting plays of the year. So why wasn't the Catch Probability elite? Because it was pretty easy to find similar plays where the outfielder didn't need to dive. As we've heard ex-Major Leaguers tell us, some diving catches -- though not all, most certainly -- are for effect.

... the data shows Pillar actually slowed somewhat approximately two seconds before the ball got there before turning the jets on to make the dive. We found similar catches (slightly harder, actually) by Ben Revere and Jacoby Ellsbury from last year, too. Pillar gets credit for the catch made. He just doesn't get extra credit for the dive.

He even went on MLB Network to talk about this and other outfield dives and what value they bring (often none):

https://www.mlb.com/unified-player/embed/petriello-on-outfield-defense-c1392490383?t=mlb-default-atp&siteSection=mlb_articles&playerContext=MLB%20News&autoPlay=true&playerId=embed_player_petriello-on-outfield-defense-c1392490383&clickToPlay=true

He obviously fell off after 2016 season so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove here? Please refer back to the original post I made which specifically said he was elite for 2 seasons and the stats support that.

And lucky for Jays fans, it was the 2 seasons that mattered and not the 2 disastrous years that followed.

[Black Watch]

He obviously fell off after 2016 season so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove here? Please refer back to the original post I made which specifically said he was elite for 2 seasons and the stats support that.

Here is your original post:

In his defense, in all my years I haven't seen very many average MLB ball players who were more exciting to watch than Kevin Pillar. His becoming a fan favourite was no fluke.

And my point was that his being exciting and a fan favourite is all well and good, but it didn't mean he was particularly valuable.

And then when someone else said he took bad routes and sometimes made dives on purpose just to get some grit points from the normie fans out there, you doubled down that he was elite during his time here, saying there are stats without every actually providing them, while never acknowledging how far removed (3 years!) he was from those days.

All I'm doing is pointing out that he did in fact dive for effect, proven by Statcast's high-speed cameras and radar.

Pretty simple.

[The_Hater]

He obviously fell off after 2016 season so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to prove here? Please refer back to the original post I made which specifically said he was elite for 2 seasons and the stats support that.

Here is your original post:

In his defense, in all my years I haven't seen very many average MLB ball players who were more exciting to watch than Kevin Pillar. His becoming a fan favourite was no fluke.

And my point was that his being exciting and a fan favourite is all well and good, but it didn't mean he was particularly valuable.

And then when someone else said he took bad routes and sometimes made dives on purpose just to get some grit points from the normie fans out there, you doubled down that he was elite during his time here, saying there are stats without every actually providing them, while never acknowledging how far removed (3 years!) he was from those days.

All I'm doing is pointing out that he did in fact dive for effect, proven by Statcast's high-speed cameras and radar.

Pretty simple.

You looked at the wrong post bud. It’s there. You’ve even quoted that post once already.

I’m not sure why but you’re trying way to hard here to prove I said something I never did. Time to let it go.

[Black Watch]

I love every poster here

[polo007]

https://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-5/Mark-Shapiro-with-Jeff-Blair-and-Kevin-Barker-bc-20190904-Interview.mp3

The Toronto Blue Jays president discusses his club's tough September schedule, his measurements for success when it comes to the 2019 campaign, prospects in the system, the impressive seasons by the team's new core, what will spark investment in free agent pitching, the development of Teoscar Hernandez, how this squad compares to his Cleveland side in the mid 2000s, potential long-term extensions for certain pre-arbitration players, the job done by his coaching staff, and openers.

Mark Shapiro says: "Winning is what will tell us that the rebuild is over."

[ratul]

https://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_demand-5/Mark-Shapiro-with-Jeff-Blair-and-Kevin-Barker-bc-20190904-Interview.mp3

The Toronto Blue Jays president discusses his club's tough September schedule, his measurements for success when it comes to the 2019 campaign, prospects in the system, the impressive seasons by the team's new core, what will spark investment in free agent pitching, the development of Teoscar Hernandez, how this squad compares to his Cleveland side in the mid 2000s, potential long-term extensions for certain pre-arbitration players, the job done by his coaching staff, and openers.

Mark Shapiro says: "Winning is what will tell us that the rebuild is over."

Lol, what a non-answer from Shats- we are 34 games under 0.500 with no pitching or defense, four years into this ass-clown's tenure. Fire this fool

[vaff87]

How long until ratool says we should fire Shapiro and hire Dave Dombrowski? Seems like his dream GM.

[dagger]

How long until ratool says we should fire Shapiro and hire Dave Dombrowski? Seems like his dream GM.

Dombrowski and Cherington before him did ownership's bidding to build champions, but whereas Cherington might have gotten back on top eventually with his approach of mainly organic rebuilding, we all knew Dombrowski had made some dubious signings - short term gain for long-term pain - his successor is going to have some really difficult choices to make. The payroll is bloated, and the only way out of that in the short term would be to let someone like JD Martinez walk if he opts out, which will push the Sox further away from the top of the AL East. They can dangle one of their overpaid underperforming pitchers as trade bait, but seem unlikely to get significant returns, and they don't have the prospect depth to add into a deal to either get veteran help for the current roster or to serve as carrots for taking on one of those pitchers. They have too much young talent on the roster to really suck, but with Mookie Betts coming upon for a big pay day after the 2020 season, its hard to see what their path forward will be.

[ratul]

How long until ratool says we should fire Shapiro and hire Dave Dombrowski? Seems like his dream GM.

Not sure how I feel about Dombrowski, but considering we might lose 100 games this year, it's worth giving anyone a look to get rid of this car crash of a front office

Dombrowski career stats the last 19 seasons with Detroit and Boston
Career Win percentage with Detroit and Boston: 0.510
Seasons: 19
Division titles: 7
Playoff appearances: 8
Percentage of years in the playoffs: 42%


By comparision, Shats
Career Win percentage as a GM in Cleveland and Toronto: .485
Seasons: 19
Division titles: 1 (2 if you include 2001 as he was handed a perennial contender in Cleveland)
Playoff appearances: 2 (4 if you include the 2001 and 2016 playoff teams shats inherited)
Percentage of years in the playoffs: 10%; 20% including 2001 and 2016


Don't know much else about Dombrowski and some of his big contract signings are very worrying (Price, Sale, Cabrera) but he did bring back Leyland and made the tigers relevant. And he's 10 months removed from winning the chip so obviously we should take a look. He's prob not my first choice GM, but that guy is leading Atlanta to a second straight division title. Nonetheless, would be much happier with Dombrowski compared to shats any day of the week.

[polo007]

How Dave Dombrowski's firing might impact the Toronto Blue Jays - Sportsnet.ca

The relevance to the Toronto Blue Jays, beyond the sudden flux to hit one of the AL East’s behemoths, is in how Red Sox ownership acted decisively with a Hall of Fame-bound executive, even though Dombrowski’s contract as president of baseball operations ran through 2020.

Fair or not, right or wrong, principal owner John Henry, chairman Tom Werner along with president and CEO Sam Kennedy didn’t risk letting any dissonance within the front office linger, opting instead to reset. Their next hire will operate with the stability of contractual term and a mandate clear to the wider baseball industry, and there’s significant value in that.

All of which brings us to Toronto Blue Jays president and CEO Mark Shapiro, who was named Paul Beeston’s replacement two weeks after Dombrowski was hired by the Red Sox in the summer of 2015 and received the same five-year term as his counterpart.

Like Dombrowski, Shapiro’s deal expires at the end of 2020 and like the Red Sox, his team is approaching an operational crossroads.

With one year left on his deal, the same as GM Ross Atkins, a question the representatives of free agents will be asking is whether the person they sign the deal with will be around to see the contract through. The same goes when the Blue Jays broach the possibility of long-term extensions with Guerrero, Bichette and others – what exactly, they’re sure to wonder, would they be signing up for?

A front office’s grand, long-term vision, after all, doesn’t carry much weight if its top executives lack the contractual term to back it up.

Which is why the Red Sox did the right thing in parting with Dombrowski if they saw things differently, and why the Blue Jays shouldn’t simply leave Shapiro’s fate to be settled next year.

The clock on their grander plan, the chess game rather than simply the checkers match, is already ticking since the service time clocks on their young core are off and running. While there’s lots of development to come, the time to start adding pieces, even mid-tier dudes, not just finishing-touch impact stars, has to start this off-season for 2021 to have a chance.

Clarity moving forward is important after Shapiro rode out the competitive window he inherited, tore the roster down when it capsized and set an entirely new foundation.

If the Blue Jays believe he’s the person to see things through, his contract should be extended and announced publicly out of respect to a fan-base that deserves transparency. If not, they’ll only be breeding the type of industry uncertainty the Red Sox acted decisively to stamp out.

[Ado05]

I would let Shapiro try to finish what he's started.

I'd give him a 2 year extension. I think by 2022 the team on paper should at least look like a playoff team.

[Schad]

We hired them to do a job, and to date they have done it fairly well. It would be a bit mad to can them now...I agree, extend through 2022, and reevaluate after 2021.

[ratul]

An Extension???!!

We have no pitching, awful at defense and a suspect offense. Our attendance has been decimated and we might lose 100 games this year. We have little to show for it other than Bo. Literally one player.

Dombrowski is available Rogers - salvage this car crash.