Was Shaq underrated?

[dhsilv2]

Shaq wasn't self-motivated.
If he never had those teammates with the killer-instinct, he may not have won anything.
MJ, Kobe, Wade = killers
Shaq = horse that needs a rider

Shaq was the main man. Fact that he wasn't self motivated doesn't mean that he wasn't the main reason they won.

Okay.
Fact that Shaq was not driven like the MJ's and the Kobe's, makes him an underachiever.
That's the premise.

So you are saying that Shaq carried Kobe. Got it.

This aint a Kobe vs Shaq debate, BTW.

Kobe is overrated
Shaq underachieved.

As I mentioned in the other Shaq thread, I think Shaq would have broke if he worked out like Kobe. His laziness likely kept him from wearing out his huge body too fast. I do think a better diet would have helped more than intense workouts for him.

Or it could have kept him from getting the huge body (all be it, some of that was intentional, and stupid). If you look at some of the basketball focused gyms, a lot of them use "zero gravity" tredmills, effectively under water workouts for the very reason of avoiding breaking down the joints.

[The_Hater]

From 1996-2007 Shaq only played in 70 or more regular season games 3 seasons, which is part of the reason why he has so few MVP awards. You can argue he should have won it all 3 years, as he was more deserving than AI in 01 or Steve Nash in 05.

Shaq was one hell of a player but he fueded with teammates, left a lot of teams on bad terms, and showed up to training camp out of shape, which I think has to be factored into his all time ranking. He's very similar to Wilt, but Shaq tends to get more hate for it. Wilt refused to practice before noon while he played for the 76ers but lived in New York. Shaq rigged the exercise bikes so they would say players had high heart rates when they were coasting.

Shaq won 4 championships and Wilt won 2. I think Wilt was worse in terms of chasing stats and fueding with teammates and coaches.

I would rank Shaq ahead of Wilt, Kobe, West, the Big O, and Hakeem, but have Lebron, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Duncan ahead of Shaq. So I have Shaq at #8 all time.

Good post.

I think Shaq’s peak was clearly better than that of Duncan but TD gets points for a longer peak and making huge contributions to contending teams for longer.

This will always be the main factor in the debate but I have Shaq ahead of TD.

Also, I wonder is it isn’t time to move West down. Durant for one should be higher IMO, and Robertson’s triple doubles seem to have less impact in the RWB era don’t they? I think both of them probably get a little too much credit playing back in an 8 team league.

[Myth]

Okay.
Fact that Shaq was not driven like the MJ's and the Kobe's, makes him an underachiever.
That's the premise.

This aint a Kobe vs Shaq debate, BTW.

Kobe is overrated
Shaq underachieved.

As I mentioned in the other Shaq thread, I think Shaq would have broke if he worked out like Kobe. His laziness likely kept him from wearing out his huge body too fast. I do think a better diet would have helped more than intense workouts for him.

Or it could have kept him from getting the huge body (all be it, some of that was intentional, and stupid). If you look at some of the basketball focused gyms, a lot of them use "zero gravity" tredmills, effectively under water workouts for the very reason of avoiding breaking down the joints.

How common were those in the 90s? Shaq was huge even when he was in shape. And when people talk about Kobe and MJ's work ethic, they were talking about court work too, and I don't believe his body would have lasted. If he had access to zero gravity treadmills though, that may have been useful.

[dhsilv2]

As I mentioned in the other Shaq thread, I think Shaq would have broke if he worked out like Kobe. His laziness likely kept him from wearing out his huge body too fast. I do think a better diet would have helped more than intense workouts for him.

Or it could have kept him from getting the huge body (all be it, some of that was intentional, and stupid). If you look at some of the basketball focused gyms, a lot of them use "zero gravity" tredmills, effectively under water workouts for the very reason of avoiding breaking down the joints.

How common were those in the 90s? Shaq was huge even when he was in shape. And when people talk about Kobe and MJ's work ethic, they were talking about court work too, and I don't believe his body would have lasted. If he had access to zero gravity treadmills though, that may have been useful.

very true, training was most certainly dated, but we're also talking the 00's because it was really the summer after 2000 that Shaq ballooned up. I'm however pretty sure people knew what pools were at the time. There have always been low impact training methods.

Shaq at 290-295 would have had a much longer, healthier, and could have maintained far more fitness without nearly the strain that his 360+ self put on his joints.

[NZB2323]

From 1996-2007 Shaq only played in 70 or more regular season games 3 seasons, which is part of the reason why he has so few MVP awards. You can argue he should have won it all 3 years, as he was more deserving than AI in 01 or Steve Nash in 05.

Shaq was one hell of a player but he fueded with teammates, left a lot of teams on bad terms, and showed up to training camp out of shape, which I think has to be factored into his all time ranking. He's very similar to Wilt, but Shaq tends to get more hate for it. Wilt refused to practice before noon while he played for the 76ers but lived in New York. Shaq rigged the exercise bikes so they would say players had high heart rates when they were coasting.

Shaq won 4 championships and Wilt won 2. I think Wilt was worse in terms of chasing stats and fueding with teammates and coaches.

I would rank Shaq ahead of Wilt, Kobe, West, the Big O, and Hakeem, but have Lebron, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Duncan ahead of Shaq. So I have Shaq at #8 all time.

Good post.

I think Shaq’s peak was clearly better than that of Duncan but TD gets points for a longer peak and making huge contributions to contending teams for longer.

This will always be the main factor in the debate but I have Shaq ahead of TD.

Also, I wonder is it isn’t time to move West down. Durant for one should be higher IMO, and Robertson’s triple doubles seem to have less impact in the RWB era don’t they? I think both of them probably get a little too much credit playing back in an 8 team league.

Jerry West made the all-star team all 14 years that he played, made the All-NBA 1st team 10 times, and made it to the NBA finals 9 times.

Kevin Durant may pass West, but he's only made 10 all-star teams, the All-NBA 1st team 6 times, and made it to the NBA finals 3 times. He does have 2 rings but he joined one hell of a stacked team.

[The_Hater]

From 1996-2007 Shaq only played in 70 or more regular season games 3 seasons, which is part of the reason why he has so few MVP awards. You can argue he should have won it all 3 years, as he was more deserving than AI in 01 or Steve Nash in 05.

Shaq was one hell of a player but he fueded with teammates, left a lot of teams on bad terms, and showed up to training camp out of shape, which I think has to be factored into his all time ranking. He's very similar to Wilt, but Shaq tends to get more hate for it. Wilt refused to practice before noon while he played for the 76ers but lived in New York. Shaq rigged the exercise bikes so they would say players had high heart rates when they were coasting.

Shaq won 4 championships and Wilt won 2. I think Wilt was worse in terms of chasing stats and fueding with teammates and coaches.

I would rank Shaq ahead of Wilt, Kobe, West, the Big O, and Hakeem, but have Lebron, Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, and Duncan ahead of Shaq. So I have Shaq at #8 all time.

Good post.

I think Shaq’s peak was clearly better than that of Duncan but TD gets points for a longer peak and making huge contributions to contending teams for longer.

This will always be the main factor in the debate but I have Shaq ahead of TD.

Also, I wonder is it isn’t time to move West down. Durant for one should be higher IMO, and Robertson’s triple doubles seem to have less impact in the RWB era don’t they? I think both of them probably get a little too much credit playing back in an 8 team league.

Jerry West made the all-star team all 14 years that he played, made the All-NBA 1st team 10 times, and made it to the NBA finals 9 times.

Kevin Durant may pass West, but he's only made 10 all-star teams, the All-NBA 1st team 6 times, and made it to the NBA finals 3 times. He does have 2 rings but he joined one hell of a stacked team.

You’re missing the key point here though, one of these players played in an 8 team league. 20-24 allstars selected from an 8 team league really waters down that accolade. Being 1st team allstar in an 8 team league is also watered down.

I’m not denying that West and Oscar and Baylor and others from the 60’s weren’t great players, but we need to recognize the huge advantages they had in achieving awards and accolades in such a small league compared to the players from the post ABA era.

[batmana]

.....

And shocked anyone here hasn't read bills book, not that I'd say it's a must read, but it's likely the most important basketball book of the last decade or two. Not seeing his list is crazy, it's everywhere.

I've certainly seen his list, I just don't know it by heart. By participating in this forum, I've seen so many top 10 lists that I think it's perfectly normal to not know any of them off the top of my head.

[NPZ]

That is NOT underrated, OP. Sorry. Try another one. Shaq donks on you like you're Ostertag. Good thing Orlando and LA both had Porter brand stanchions which he never folded, but all the teams that had Hydra-Ribs, those babies shook. He broke that Hydra-Rib in Jersey at the center point. Sheared metal. Not underrated. No one would believe that unless there was footage. That's Paul Bunyon type stuff.

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