Is It "un-Nets-ian" to Root Against the Clippers?

[ecuhus1981]

I've been pondering this for a while. Is it poor form of me as a Nets fan, to dislike our counterpart little brother on the Left coast?

We heard the narrative leading up to free agency, how the four main teams vying for premier free agents were located in the NBA's two largest markets. It was a tug of war between the underdogs and their richer, more popular rivals. Somehow, both the Nets and the Clippers shocked the world, and left the Lakers and Knicks holding second place for the first time in a long time.

Let me be clear, I have no personal beef with any of the Clippers players or staff. I just feel that they are being overrated, for the same reasons we are being underrated. I also not a huge fan of how that team is built. Their big man rotation is weird, inexperienced and shallow. Plus, the 2 best players on that team are best suited to play the same position. One of the things that I love so much about Kyrie and Kevin is that they balance each other so well. One of Kawhi or Paul is going to have to log heavy minutes at the 4, and that still doesn't solve it all.

Also, the pundits that claim that we won't be a good team because of KD's injury status gloss over the fact that Paul George had surgery on BOTH of his shoulders this summer. He's expected to return way sooner than Durant, but I would be more worried about bounce-back from shoulder surgery than an Achilles on your non-dominant leg.

Finally, am I crazy to think that we have a way, way, waaaaaaaay better supporting cast than them? LeVert versus Shamet, Dinwiddie versus Williams, Jordan versus Zubac, Allen versus Harrell, Harris versus Beverly? We slaughter each comparison. So why are we being projected 20 wins under them this season?????

It's not the Clippers' fault that they are media darlings. Honestly, we don't need the circus. I'm just ready for this season to begin. I will enjoy it very much on our own merit, but it will be 1% sweeter knowing that we've proved all of the doubters wrong. Those same doubters are going to have to eat crow about some of their predicted favorites.

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[Prokorov]

I've been pondering this for a while. Is it poor form of me as a Nets fan, to dislike our counterpart little brother on the Left coast?

We heard the narrative leading up to free agency, how the four main teams vying for premier free agents were located in the NBA's two largest markets. It was a tug of war between the underdogs and their richer, more popular rivals. Somehow, both the Nets and the Clippers shocked the world, and left the Lakers and Knicks holding second place for the first time in a long time.

Let me be clear, I have no personal beef with any of the Clippers players or staff. I just feel that they are being overrated, for the same reasons we are being underrated. I also not a huge fan of how that team is built. Their big man rotation is weird, inexperienced and shallow. Plus, the 2 best players on that team are best suited to play the same position. One of the things that I love so much about Kyrie and Kevin is that they balance each other so well. One of Kawhi or Paul is going to have to log heavy minutes at the 4, and that still doesn't solve it all.

Also, the pundits that claim that we won't be a good team because of KD's injury status gloss over the fact that Paul George had surgery on BOTH of his shoulders this summer. He's expected to return way sooner than Durant, but I would be more worried about bounce-back from shoulder surgery than an Achilles on your non-dominant leg.

Finally, am I crazy to think that we have a way, way, waaaaaaaay better supporting cast than them? LeVert versus Shamet, Dinwiddie versus Williams, Jordan versus Zubac, Allen versus Harrell, Harris versus Beverly? We slaughter each comparison. So why are we being projected 20 wins under them this season?????

It's not the Clippers' fault that they are media darlings. Honestly, we don't need the circus. I'm just ready for this season to begin. I will enjoy it very much on our own merit, but it will be 1% sweeter knowing that we've proved all of the doubters wrong. Those same doubters are going to have to eat crow about some of their predicted favorites.

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Nothing wrong with rooting for any teams thats not the Nets... especially a team with a D-bag like george on it.

Also, the knicks are the only one who was left in the Dust. the laker landed Anthony Davis. he is as good/better then any of Kyrie, KD, Kawhi/George. And f course they already had lebron from last offseason. People are sleeping on the Lakers cause they werent good last year. it was a vacation for lebron as he waited for another star. but Lebron/AD is going to be beyond lethal. Every time lebron played with another all-star its been championships. I think they are better then the clippers and lebron is rested and set to ether the entire league.

The knicks have 10 power forwards and their best player is probably bobby portis or randle. yikes

[Prokorov]

Finally, am I crazy to think that we have a way, way, waaaaaaaay better supporting cast than them? LeVert versus Shamet, Dinwiddie versus Williams, Jordan versus Zubac, Allen versus Harrell, Harris versus Beverly? We slaughter each comparison. So why are we being projected 20 wins under them this season?????

I do think you are crazy... we might have a better supporting cast... but certainly not "Waaaaaay" better.

-I dont know that dinwiddie is better then lou williams. statistically he certainly isnt.

-Landry Shamet is more Joe Harris counterpart. and while joe led the league in three point shooting, Shamet actually shot it better then he did 945% on 6 sttemps a game) he just didnt qualify because he didnt play enough games. Harris is better/more proven, but shamet is right there and may be as good or better in the future. he is certainly not "waaaaaaaay worse"

-Harrell i think is better then Allen but im also biased because i have a mancrush on harrell. again if it is allen who is better its not "waaaaaay better"

-Levert and Beverly i guess you'd match up here even thoguht different positions/roles but their importance to their teams is similar on on different ends. Levert gets the nod. is he "waaaaaaaay" better? i dont know, but he is better and its probably a bigger gap then the above 3 matchups.

I think the only place we really have the nod with some margin over the clippers is overall depth. we run deeper with role guys then they do. we havent mentioned kurucs, Prince, Temple, Nwamba, Jordan....

but Shamet/Lou Will/Harrell/Beverly are certainl as good (better?) as a of core role guys then spencer/levert/harris/allen

[ecuhus1981]

Prok, I can always count on you for a dissenting opinion.

Louis Williams is toast. Last year he declined defensively, where he was already poor. His offensive efficiency took a hit as well, and this is how it happens with role players that have very stratified skill sets. On the surface, the first year of the decline looks very similar, because we typically look at the box score and nothing deeper. Trust, this season, you'll see what a carcass he is.

Montrezl is a positive contributor overall due to his awesome efficiency around the rim, but his defense is subpar. Zubac is a bit better on defense, but nothing to write home about offensively. Neither one can hold a candle to either of our centers.

Shamet has a more diverse skill set than Joe, and is really a secondary playmaker. But whatever, if you want to pair the two of them I'll go along. He hits 3's at an excellent rate (not a high as Joe), but we'll see how he develops once defenses key on him.

You just finished saying in another thread that 75% of Durant is a top three player in the league. Now, you say he's not as good as Anthony Davis? We're getting off on a tangent, but sometimes I just can't reach you.

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[Prokorov]

Prok, I can always count on you for a dissenting opinion.

Louis Williams is toast. Last year he declined defensively, where he was already poor. His offensive efficiency took a hit as well, and this is how it happens with role players that have very stratified skill sets. On the surface, the first year of the decline looks very similar, because we typically look at the box score and nothing deeper. Trust, this season, you'll see what a carcass he is.

your points on defense and efficiency are true. the problem is his declined efficiency is still good (56 TS%) and his poor defense would matter more if we werent comparing him with our worst defender. maybe he is on a decline, in either event your goal post wasnt "who is better" between the two but that spencer is "waaaaaay" better. certainly not the case, even with a declining/declined williams

Montrezl is a positive contributor overall due to his awesome efficiency around the rim, but his defense is subpar. Zubac is a bit better on defense, but nothing to write home about offensively. Neither one can hold a candle to either of our centers.

Allen is not great defensively either and it is VERY homerish to say he "cant hold a candle" to allen. objectively he is probably better and unobjectively he is at least not "cant hold a candle to" levels of worse

You just finished saying in another thread that 75% of Durant is a top three player in the league. Now, you say he's not as good as Anthony Davis? We're getting off on a tangent, but sometimes I just can't reach you.

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KD is as good/better then davis. id put davis ahead of kyrie and george. the point was AD is as good/better then the guys in that group. its not liek LA struck out. Lebron/AD might be the best duo of NY/LA teams

[ecuhus1981]

OK, I at least understand you more now.

Yes, Spencer might the worst defender among our rotation, although it's super close between him and Joe. To your point though, we're comparing him to Louis, and Spencer is clearly a better defender. he's better on offense as well, Lou got a pass last year but his decline is going to be un-ignorable this season.

I think you are overreacting to statements. "Can't hold a candle" doesn't mean that Montrezl doesn't belong on an NBA court. No one is saying that. There is a clear delineation between dark-horse future All-Stars like Jarrett, and excellent role-players like Harrell.

Similarly, waaaaaaay is cumulative. Each comparison on its own is not an enormous matchup gap in our favor. But we do win each matchup I described, that's not homerism. If you aggregate all of the complementary advantages we have with 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-, 6th-, and 7th-best players, altogether it's a landslide.

[Prokorov]

OK, I at least understand you more now.

Yes, Spencer might the worst defender among our rotation, although it's super close between him and Joe. To your point though, we're comparing him to Louis, and Spencer is clearly a better defender. he's better on offense as well, Lou got a pass last year but his decline is going to be un-ignorable this season.

spencer isnt a clearly better defender. maybe he is better, if he is, its negligble and by the numbers he is worse. in any event, even if williams is declining. spencer still is not WAY better, if he even is.

I think you are overreacting to statements. "Can't hold a candle" doesn't mean that Montrezl doesn't belong on an NBA court. No one is saying that. There is a clear delineation between dark-horse future All-Stars like Jarrett, and excellent role-players like Harrell.

Harrell is closer to being an all-star then allen is. Harrell is better offensivly and better defensively. Allen is the better rebounder. Harrell also abused allen head to head when we played them. Maybe allen wil be better then harrell next year, if he is, it is still very close

Similarly, waaaaaaay is cumulative. Each comparison on its own is not an enormous matchup gap in our favor. But we do win each matchup I described, that's not homerism. If you aggregate all of the complementary advantages we have with 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-, 6th-, and 7th-best players, altogether it's a landslide.

we definetly dont win on each matchup and you definitley are overrating our guys. if you go 3 through 15 the nets support cast is better. if you go 3 through 6 its probably the clippers

[50CalClips]

I've been pondering this for a while. Is it poor form of me as a Nets fan, to dislike our counterpart little brother on the Left coast?

We heard the narrative leading up to free agency, how the four main teams vying for premier free agents were located in the NBA's two largest markets. It was a tug of war between the underdogs and their richer, more popular rivals. Somehow, both the Nets and the Clippers shocked the world, and left the Lakers and Knicks holding second place for the first time in a long time.

Let me be clear, I have no personal beef with any of the Clippers players or staff. I just feel that they are being overrated, for the same reasons we are being underrated. I also not a huge fan of how that team is built. Their big man rotation is weird, inexperienced and shallow. Plus, the 2 best players on that team are best suited to play the same position. One of the things that I love so much about Kyrie and Kevin is that they balance each other so well. One of Kawhi or Paul is going to have to log heavy minutes at the 4, and that still doesn't solve it all.

Also, the pundits that claim that we won't be a good team because of KD's injury status gloss over the fact that Paul George had surgery on BOTH of his shoulders this summer. He's expected to return way sooner than Durant, but I would be more worried about bounce-back from shoulder surgery than an Achilles on your non-dominant leg.

Finally, am I crazy to think that we have a way, way, waaaaaaaay better supporting cast than them? LeVert versus Shamet, Dinwiddie versus Williams, Jordan versus Zubac, Allen versus Harrell, Harris versus Beverly? We slaughter each comparison. So why are we being projected 20 wins under them this season?????

It's not the Clippers' fault that they are media darlings. Honestly, we don't need the circus. I'm just ready for this season to begin. I will enjoy it very much on our own merit, but it will be 1% sweeter knowing that we've proved all of the doubters wrong. Those same doubters are going to have to eat crow about some of their predicted favorites.

It's one thing to "dislike" the Clippers... it's another thing to think that the media/fans are over-hyping them. It sounds like you just think people are over-hyping them. As long as you're being objective, have at it.

As far as L.A. being "projected 20 wins" ahead of the Nets...
The Nets will be missing Durant for the entire season. That's mostly it.

But it's still interesting to compare the rest of the team:
WS = WinShare (and WS/48mins)
includes stats from entire reg.season

PG - Dinwiddle - 4.8 WS (.121), 25.6 Ast% <--- 16.8 ppg
PG - Lou Will - 5.1 WS (.123), 33.0 Ast% <------ 20 ppg, "go-to" scorer
PG - Pat Bev - 4.8 WS (.108), 18.4 Ast%

SG - Joe Harris - 5.5 WS (.116), .474 3FG%, .645 TS%
SG - Garrett Temple - 2.2 WS (.052), .341 3FG%, .543 TS%
SG - Landry Shamet - 3.6 WS (.095), .433 3FG%, .604 TS%

SF - Caris LeVert - 1.7 WS (.077), 14.0 PER <---------- 23.2 Ast%
SF - Moe Harkless - 3.4 WS (.114), 13.2 PER

SF/PF- Wilson Chandler - 1.5 WS (.062), 112 DefRating
PF - JaMychal Green - 2.9 WS (.101), 107 DefRating <---- .403 3FG%

C - Jarrett Allen - 7.6 WS (.175), 106 DefRating
C - DeAndre - 7.1 WS (.167), 106 DefRating
PF/C - Montrezl - 8.7 WS (.193), 109 DefRating <------ 16.6 ppg
C - Ivica Zubac - 3.2 WS (.148), 108 DefRating

[MrDollarBills]

Why would we dislike the Clippers? They're our brethren, big city franchise who is in the shadow of the Lakers, sound familar?

The goal is to get good enough to meet them in the NBA Finals to do battle. Leonard and George vs. Durant and Irving. The story writes itself.

[50CalClips]

Prok, I can always count on you for a dissenting opinion.

Louis Williams is toast. Last year he declined defensively, where he was already poor. His offensive efficiency took a hit as well, and this is how it happens with role players that have very stratified skill sets. On the surface, the first year of the decline looks very similar, because we typically look at the box score and nothing deeper. Trust, this season, you'll see what a carcass he is...

No one beats father-time, Lou Will is on his physical decline. I don't expect his defense to improve, but as far as efficiency... with more "go-to" options on the team, Lou Wills' efficiency will likely increase next year. His eFG% was indeed below his Career Average in 2019, but his FG% and TrueShooting% were both right around the same as his Career Average (.425 vs .421 FG% and .554 vs .555 TS%); not on a big decline.

Matter of fact, Lou Williams had more than a few Career High's in 2019, and above Career Avg:

32.4 Usage% = Career High (26.3 Career Avg)
33.0 Ast% = Career High (22.3)
5.4 ast = Career High (3.3)
3.0 reb = Career High (2.3)
11.3 2PTa = Career High (7.0)
5.1 2PTm = Career High (3.2)
6.5 FTa = Career High (4.5)
5.7 FTm = Career High (3.8)
-----
26.6 Mins = Above Avg (24.6)
15.2 FGa = Above Avg (10.8)
.361 3PT% = Above Avg (.349)
21.2 PER = Above Avg (18.5)
5.9 Reb% = Above Avg (5.1)

[50CalClips]

OK, I at least understand you more now.

Yes, Spencer might the worst defender among our rotation, although it's super close between him and Joe. To your point though, we're comparing him to Louis, and Spencer is clearly a better defender. he's better on offense as well, Lou got a pass last year but his decline is going to be un-ignorable this season.

I think you are overreacting to statements. "Can't hold a candle" doesn't mean that Montrezl doesn't belong on an NBA court. No one is saying that. There is a clear delineation between dark-horse future All-Stars like Jarrett, and excellent role-players like Harrell.

Similarly, waaaaaaay is cumulative. Each comparison on its own is not an enormous matchup gap in our favor. But we do win each matchup I described, that's not homerism. If you aggregate all of the complementary advantages we have with 3rd-, 4th-, 5th-, 6th-, and 7th-best players, altogether it's a landslide.

Ha! Lou Will "got a pass" last year? Okay.
Lou Will won't be expected to carry the team (in scoring) like he did the past two years. So then he'll definitely be getting "a pass" this coming season.

2019 Usage Percentage Leaders:
1. James Harden, HOU - 40.5
2. Joel Embiid, PHI - 33.3
3. Devin Booker, PHO - 32.9
4. Lou Williams, LAC - 32.4
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo, MIL - 32.3
6. D'Angelo Russell, BRK - 31.9
7. Donovan Mitchell, UTA - 31.6
8. LeBron James, LAL - 31.6
9. Kemba Walker, CHO - 31.5
10. Russell Westbrook, OKC - 30.9

2019 4th Qtr Scoring Leaders (41 game-min):
1. LeBron James - 8.6
2. James Harden - 8.3
3. Kemba Walker - 8.0
4. Giannis Ant - 7.7
5. Lou Williams - 7.6
6. Paul George - 7.1
...

Watch on YouTube

[MrDollarBills]

Sweet Lou is a **** ing beast

[ecuhus1981]

Welcome, 50CC.

I don't want this thread to devolve into merely a Lou Williams '19-'20 predictions debate. For now, we'll agree to disagree that he'll be worse than last year.

To you point about KD's recovery, 50CalClips, Durant will not miss the season. It's early September, and Kevin is already wearing basketball shoes on the foot and exploding lightly off of it. His full structural recovery will finish in late December 2019, 6.5 months from the date of his surgery. I imagine he'll then have at least a month of slowly building up to 5-on-5, and then further time acclimating to practices and new teammates. Hell be raring to go February 1, 2020, but I imagine he'll debut right after the All-Star break, on February 20th.

Some Nets fan have prescribed holding him out the entire season even when he is healthy. I don't think our FO is of the same mindset, and KD would probably revolt if we restricted him months after he's fully ready.

Perhaps you are correct that this is the reason folks are bearish on BRK. But that perspective is errant.

[gigantes]

Hmm, this is a fun thread premise. So, I can certainly appreciate the Clips being analogs of the Nets, but I also see some major differences:

The team paid through the nose to bring in their duo, while the Nets only had to exchange the redundant DLo for a first rounder. The Clips are therefore in hardcore win-now mode, while the Nets can fairly patiently continue to acquire & develop assets, knowing that if Kyrie and Durant don't work out so well, it won't rock the boat too much. The Clips are also in a borderline terrifying situation of only having their two guys nailed down for two years as a certainty. These same two guys are pretty much the current NBA poster boys for mercenary self-interest, of course. That's a bit of a "yikes" from me.

...People are sleeping on the Lakers cause they werent good last year. it was a vacation for lebron as he waited for another star. but Lebron/AD is going to be beyond lethal. Every time lebron played with another all-star its been championships. I think they are better then the clippers and lebron is rested and set to ether the entire league.

There again I see some big, chonky differences between this season's Lakers and LeBron's eight years of East ownership. For one thing, those Cavs and Heat teams had significantly deeper supporting casts, with far more mutual playing time. The Heat in particular were already a solid playoff team before LeBron joined them. Now, it seems like Pelinka actually did a pretty good job filling out the new Lakers roster, but it was also a bit like buying a last-minute Xmas gift at CVS with only a fiver in your pocket.

Besides that, there's the huge wildcard of their three best players' health. Two of those guys will need to carry huge loads and play loads of minutes to make this thing work. Either of them going out for any length of time would place that much more pressure on the other to carry a pretty mundane roster. LeBron turning 35 two months in to the season just makes it all the more tricky. He's been historically resilient and consistent of course, but at some point, that's going to turn south. Even if only by degrees. But given his workload and age, I'm thinking it's more likely not to be a smooth decline.

So yeah, I could definitely see LeBron having a wondrously buoyant effect on everyone, having arguably his best running mate ever, and perhaps struggling all the way to a close finals win, ala CLE '15-16. But I could also see them falling apart from an almost unlimited number of directions. There again, that's a pretty well gutted team in to the future if this experiment doesn't quite work.

Maybe the Nets immediate ceiling probably isn't as high as these other two teams, but I'm liking our far more stable outlook.

[50CalClips]

Welcome, 50CC.

I don't want this thread to devolve into merely a Lou Williams '19-'20 predictions debate. For now, we'll agree to disagree that he'll be worse than last year.

To you point about KD's recovery, 50CalClips, Durant will not miss the season. It's early September, and Kevin is already wearing basketball shoes on the foot and exploding lightly off of it. His full structural recovery will finish in late December 2019, 6.5 months from the date of his surgery. I imagine he'll then have at least a month of slowly building up to 5-on-5, and then further time acclimating to practices and new teammates. Hell be raring to go February 1, 2020, but I imagine he'll debut right after the All-Star break, on February 20th.

Some Nets fan have prescribed holding him out the entire season even when he is healthy. I don't think our FO is of the same mindset, and KD would probably revolt if we restricted him months after he's fully ready.

Perhaps you are correct that this is the reason folks are bearish on BRK. But that perspective is errant.

We can't even agree on what we're disagreeing on... ha. I'm expecting Lou Williams to have a smaller role this coming year, we'll see less production (so we actually agree in that respect)... but his efficiency will increase. Opposing defenses won't be focused on him the way they were last year with the treats from Kawhi, George, Shamet.

Durant is actually planning on playing this season?!? That sounds crazy. I think most are expecting that he doesn't return til the year after. Either way, even if he returns by March, the Nets' record is going to reflect his absence.

[DarkXaero]

Welcome, 50CC.

I don't want this thread to devolve into merely a Lou Williams '19-'20 predictions debate. For now, we'll agree to disagree that he'll be worse than last year.

To you point about KD's recovery, 50CalClips, Durant will not miss the season. It's early September, and Kevin is already wearing basketball shoes on the foot and exploding lightly off of it. His full structural recovery will finish in late December 2019, 6.5 months from the date of his surgery. I imagine he'll then have at least a month of slowly building up to 5-on-5, and then further time acclimating to practices and new teammates. Hell be raring to go February 1, 2020, but I imagine he'll debut right after the All-Star break, on February 20th.

Some Nets fan have prescribed holding him out the entire season even when he is healthy. I don't think our FO is of the same mindset, and KD would probably revolt if we restricted him months after he's fully ready.

Perhaps you are correct that this is the reason folks are bearish on BRK. But that perspective is errant.

We can't even agree on what we're disagreeing on... ha. I'm expecting Lou Williams to have a smaller role this coming year, we'll see less production (so we actually agree in that respect)... but his efficiency will increase. Opposing defenses won't be focused on him the way they were last year with the treats from Kawhi, George, Shamet.

Durant is actually planning on playing this season?!? That sounds crazy. I think most are expecting that he doesn't return til the year after. Either way, even if he returns by March, the Nets' record is going to reflect his absence.

It's way too early, but early indications are that KD will be back by end of season. Obviously a lot has to go right for that to happen, but that's how it seems at the moment.

To address the topic, I don't have any ill will towards the Clippers, if anything, we should feel mutual sympathy towards them. They're the Nets of West, playing under the shadow of a far more popular & successful organization. Obviously, I would never put the Knicks on the same pedestal as the Lakers, as Knicks are probably the worst franchise in American sports, all things considered. But unfortunately, we still have a lot to do to establish ourselves in NYC as New York's team. For the Clippers, its much harder to do that because Lakers have the legacy & history, but I hope they can be that team in LA. Ultimately, obviously, Clippers are our competition, and I hope we get to see them in the NBA finals in the next few years. I do think that Clippers have a stronger roster than us for now (even with KD), but we'll see if that changes after this next season. We have more upside on our players, but they have more depth, defense. That can change.