#19 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[penbeast0]

Interested to see how Kawhi does next year.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Interested to see how Kawhi does next year.

2017 31 PER 67% TS and was up 20 on warriors until that clumsy moron zaza.

2019 made embiid cry, punked Giannis, and dethroned warriors.

People underrate peak embiid and butler as a duo, they are pretty much a poor mans 2000 shaq kobe. 76ers win the title if Kawhi doesn't make the only game 7 buzzer beater in NBA history. Now finally Kawhi plays with another superstar in LA? its over unless another clumsy moron like zaza wants to stop greatness again.

[No-more-rings]

Interested to see how Kawhi does next year.

2017 31 PER 67% TS and was up 20 on warriors until that clumsy moron zaza.

2019 made embiid cry, punked Giannis, and dethroned warriors.

People underrate peak embiid and butler as a duo, they are pretty much a poor mans 2000 shaq kobe. 76ers win the title if Kawhi doesn't make the only game 7 buzzer beater in NBA history. Now finally Kawhi plays with another superstar in LA? its over unless another clumsy moron like zaza wants to stop greatness again.

Do you seriously believe the Spurs would’ve beaten the Warriors in 2017 if Kawhi didn’t get hurt?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Interested to see how Kawhi does next year.

2017 31 PER 67% TS and was up 20 on warriors until that clumsy moron zaza.

2019 made embiid cry, punked Giannis, and dethroned warriors.

People underrate peak embiid and butler as a duo, they are pretty much a poor mans 2000 shaq kobe. 76ers win the title if Kawhi doesn't make the only game 7 buzzer beater in NBA history. Now finally Kawhi plays with another superstar in LA? its over unless another clumsy moron like zaza wants to stop greatness again.

Do you seriously believe the Spurs would’ve beaten the Warriors in 2017 if Kawhi didn’t get hurt?

Its possible because they had the best player on the court with playoff tested veterans and the best coach, they were definitely going to steal home court.

[No-more-rings]

2017 31 PER 67% TS and was up 20 on warriors until that clumsy moron zaza.

2019 made embiid cry, punked Giannis, and dethroned warriors.

People underrate peak embiid and butler as a duo, they are pretty much a poor mans 2000 shaq kobe. 76ers win the title if Kawhi doesn't make the only game 7 buzzer beater in NBA history. Now finally Kawhi plays with another superstar in LA? its over unless another clumsy moron like zaza wants to stop greatness again.

Do you seriously believe the Spurs would’ve beaten the Warriors in 2017 if Kawhi didn’t get hurt?

Its possible because they had the best player on the court with playoff tested veterans and the best coach, they were definitely going to steal home court.

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

[E-Balla]

After reading the last two threads, I've come to the conclusion that I may have been underrating Patrick Ewing a bit. I was planning on starting to campaign for 2016 Draymond now that Robinson is off the board, but after reading the conversations about Ewing, I think I rate peak Ewing over peak Draymond, and maybe over peak Robinson(still not sure on that).

2. 1994 Ewing - definitely worse box score stats than 1990, but he was older, which generally coincides with less box score stats and more actual impact. Led the Knicks to not only the #1 defense, but arguably the best defense ever. I see peak Ewing as a +1.5-2.5 offense, +4.75-5.75 defense player.

3. 1993 Ewing - arguably better box score stats than 1994 when you look at the playoffs, but still very close. Knicks were still the number one defense this year, but not in the consideration for best all time.

What's the argument for 94 Ewing over any of 89-93? I get that his team did better but if you want to talk about his defense 92 and 93 are much better seasons with 93 being the only 60 win team Ewing was ever on despite having less talent than the 94 Knicks (who added Doc at PG).

Also the 93 Knicks are quite literally the best defense of all time. How is the team with the best relative DRTG since Bill Russell, "not in the consideration for the best all time?"

Here's the top 10 defenses since 76 by z-score:

Code: Select all

RANK   Team   Offense   Defense   Total [anchor]
#01   93 NYK   -0.64   -2.77   +2.14 [Patrick Ewing]
#02   04 SAS   -0.20   -2.49   +2.30 [Tim Duncan]
#03   08 BOS   +0.79   -2.49   +3.28 [Kevin Garnett]
#04   94 NYK   -0.17   -2.46   +2.29 [Patrick Ewing]
#05   07 CHI   -0.53   -2.36   +1.83 [Ben Wallace]
#06   14 IND   -0.81   -2.33   +1.52 [Roy Hibbert, Paul George]
#07   16 SAS   +1.23   -2.33   +3.56 [Kawhi Leonard]
#07   07 SAS   +0.95   -2.26   +3.21 [Tim Duncan]
#08   05 SAS   +0.44   -2.24   +2.68 [Tim Duncan]
#09   11 CHI   +0.33   -2.13   +2.46 [Joakim Noah, Luol Deng]
#10   11 BOS   -0.32   -2.13   +1.81 [Kevin Garnett]

Their playoff DRTG doesn't look too hot but he played Reggie Miller in round 1 (I've argued before he's a top 10ish offensive postseason player ever and his regularized scoring production in the playoffs from 92-96 is the same as Curry's regularized regular season production from 15-19) and MJ in the ECF which made their postseason DRTG look bad. Against the Hornets in round 2, the one team not featuring one of the top 10ish offensive players in postseason history, they held Zo and LJ to a -9.0 ORTG vs their regular season average a series after they tore up the Celtics defense.

1. 2015 Chris Paul - Lead the Clippers to second best SRS. Arguably the best defensive PG ever, and up there with some of the best offensive players ever, maybe a slight step down. Top tier impact metrics, consistently. Arguably the best impact player after Lebron and KG, and that includes guys like Duncan and Shaq. I actually thought he was a bit better in 2014, but oh well. On a +/- scale (not elgees total SRS scale), I see peak Chris as a +5-6 offense, +1.5-2.5 defense player. I feel like a lot of people see 2008 as his peak, but I see that more as a 2009 Lebron statistical peak, but not actually his best in terms of championship odds.

What evidence do we have that CP3 is anywhere near Jason Kidd defensively or even anywhere near a +1.5-2.5 defensive player at all because these are some insane claims. I think he's a very good defender, especially in his Clippers form, but he never really seemed like a super impactful guy on that end unlike Kidd/GP/Clyde who anchored top defenses.

Also his impact numbers lag far behind Shaq and Duncan. They're on par with Kidd and Nash which is top 5ish most years but not top tier with someone like LeBron.

Chris Paul is weird cause he seems to get injured so often. Injury in the playoffs basically ruins that season for me, otherwise I would have voted 2016 Curry as top 5, or maybe even top 3(not sure on that). Was considering 2008 Paul as that's his best year in terms of box score stats, but again, box score stats are a young mans game, and box score stats overrate young players. There's simply no way I can convince myself that a 22 year old Chris is better than a 29 year old Chris.

Why not? Personally I feel there's no way I can convince myself 29 year old CP3 is better than young CP3. He improved his midrange jumper and man to man defense as his career went on but he lost his athleticism after tearing his meniscus and was on a team he was arguably hurting with his horrible leadership if we're really going to be honest. Usually locker room issues wouldn't come up, but:

1. Chris Paul missed 20 games in 2014 and the team's SRS went up +0.9
2. Chris Paul showed no improvement from 2014 to 2015 in his game.
3. The Clippers' improvement was clearly not a fluke, but was instead a result of Blake Griffin running point when he was hurt.
4. Blake averaged 28/8/4 on 61 TS% with a 122 ORTG without CP3 and 21/10/3 on 56 TS% with a 111 ORTG with CP3 in 2014 IIRC.
5. He was clearly disliked by his most important teammate and openly beefing with his HOF bound head coach.

Then we get into the fact that with all that talent he played with in LA they never had a better team than the 08 Hornets. Teams that were about as good, but none that were better despite the fact he played with WAAAAAY more talent and a WAAAAAY better coach in Los Angeles. I'm just not seeing it here.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Do you seriously believe the Spurs would’ve beaten the Warriors in 2017 if Kawhi didn’t get hurt?

Its possible because they had the best player on the court with playoff tested veterans and the best coach, they were definitely going to steal home court.

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

They went on to go 16-1 but were getting blown out on their home court by Kawhi, that should tell you something right there. Kawhi scored 26 points 73% TS in 23 minutes! He was beating them like a rag doll.

Another thing, Aldridge finally took his head out of his ass in the closeout Rockets game and gained huge confidence. Aldridge carried that over in game 1 vs warriors as well. However, the team lost all confidence when Leonard went out.

[No-more-rings]

Its possible because they had the best player on the court with playoff tested veterans and the best coach, they were definitely going to steal home court.

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

They went on to go 16-1 but were getting blown out on their home court by Kawhi, that should tell you something right there. Kawhi scored 26 points 73% TS in 23 minutes! He was beating them like a rag doll.

Another thing, Aldridge finally took his head out of his ass in the closeout Rockets game and gained huge confidence. Aldridge carried that over in game 1 vs warriors as well. However, the team lost all confidence when Leonard went out.

I wouldn’t make much of that one game unless you think Kawhi was gonna smash them for 40 every single game. And even if he did, there was still way more talent on the Warriors, so it wouldn’t have mattered anyway.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

They went on to go 16-1 but were getting blown out on their home court by Kawhi, that should tell you something right there. Kawhi scored 26 points 73% TS in 23 minutes! He was beating them like a rag doll.

Another thing, Aldridge finally took his head out of his ass in the closeout Rockets game and gained huge confidence. Aldridge carried that over in game 1 vs warriors as well. However, the team lost all confidence when Leonard went out.

I wouldn’t make much of that one game unless you think Kawhi was gonna smash them for 40 every single game. And even if he did, there was still way more talent on the Warriors, so it wouldn’t have mattered anyway.

It could of been a 2011 heat vs mavs type situation if Leonard stayed healthy I think.

2017 Leonard 1st round vs top 7 defensive ranking team: 31 points on 71% TS with an offensive rating 142: So he was pretty much Jordan in this round.

2nd round: He averages 24 points 10 rebounds 6 assists which is basically 2013 Lebron numbers.

3rd round he is destroying Warriors with 26 points in 23 minutes 73% TS and than gets hacked!

[trex_8063]

Sorry I've been away, but I suppose I'll throw in some votes just for larger voter pool. Though tbh, I don't have terribly strong feelings at this stage (not since Robinson is in, anyway). With Wade, West, and Erving off the table too, I suppose I'll go with:

1st ballot - '14 Kevin Durant - League-leading 32 ppg on ridiculous +9.4% rTS shooting efficiency, while also emerging as a pretty good playmaker this year. Totally respectable turnover economy as he added 5.5 apg to his 32 ppg, and was [imo] beginning to be a fair/passable defender by this point, and solid SF rebounder as always. Was 1st in the league in PER, 1st in WS/48 and WS, 2nd in BPM and 1st in VORP, while also being 3rd in RAPM iirc [playing considerably more minutes than the guy in 2nd].

People rag on his playoff performance this year, though as has been noted in many prior spots, I'm not as playoff-centric as many appear to be. But it's worth touching on that he faced good-to-elite team defenses AND good-to-elite individual defenders every step of the way in the playoffs. He nonetheless averaged 29.6 ppg [again: league-leading] on +2.9% rTS in the playoffs, though his playmaking and turnovers did worsen a little. Breaking down the good defenses I'm referring to....

*1st round they faced the 7th-rated [-2.1 rDRTG] Grizzlies, with Memphis platooning Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince (+/- a little James Johnson et al at times) on Durant. Durant averaged 29.9 ppg @ +0.2 rTS%, though 4.0 topg (to 3.4 apg; though also 9.6 rpg). He still averaged a team-best 19.7 GameScore and a +4 net rating facing that defensive core.

**2nd round they faced a 9th-rated [-1.9 rDRTG] Clippers team, who had Matt Barnes (plus some Jared Dudley) to primarily cover Durant. Durant averaged 33.2 ppg @ +7.9% rTS with 5.3 apg (4.0 topg; and again 9.5 rpg); averaged a team-best 24.7 GameScore, as well as a +9 net rating.

***3rd round they faced the eventual champ Spurs team [whom they took to 6 games, one further than the Heat managed in the finals]. This had been the 3rd-rated [-4.3 rDRTG] defense during the rs, and of course had the ultimate stopper at SF: a still defensively-applied Kawhi Leonard. A "shut down" Durant was still averaging 25.8 ppg @ +2.9% rTS with 3.2 apg and 3.3 topg [Leonard, fwiw, averaged 11.8 ppg @ -5.4% rTS].

And we know Durant is just about as portable as volume-scorers come. fwiw, I actually somewhat like '17 Durant better (all the good things that come with the '14 version, but better defensively [at least with his slightly reduced minutes and offensive role]). However, I think those things might have been made possible by the aforementioned reduced offensive role and minutes; and then there's the 20 missed games to consider. Still, it's in the running for my 3rd ballot.


2nd ballot - '07 Dirk Nowitzki - Another of the greatest off-ball scorers; giant of gravity, underrated defender at this stage of his career, and certainly an excellent defensive rebounder. Flubbed the playoffs, or I'd rank this season higher.


3rd ballot - '11 Dirk Nowitzki - idk; I could see giving this one to '16 or '17 Durant, or to another player (Kobe, Moses, CP3, TMac, Barkley all feel like valid choices at this point, too). He just had an amazing playoff run, combined with an awfully good rs this year. With the playoff factored in, his impact just appears off the chart (he's +2 to the 2nd-placed player in RAPM this year). His offensive game just doesn't feel like it has any of the weaknesses that he'd had exploited in '07 (although his defense has declined, as has his rs minutes).

[Mavericksfan]

1)Dirk 2011
Misses 9 games and has a pedestrian regular season in terms of boxscore production. Has great impact stats and led the Mavs to a dominant win % when he played. Absolutely insane playoff production leading the Mavs against two championship caliber teams(almost 6 SRS Lakers, almost 7 SRS Heat). Bonus points for portability as he can fit any offense.

2)Kobe Bryant 2008
A top player according to impact, boxscore metrics and the his team results speak for themselves. Beat two championship caliber teams in the Spurs and Jazz while having an overall solid playoffs.

3) Kobe 2009
Virtually the same level as 2008. I have 08 higher because of the better competition faced in the playoffs

[DatAsh]

After reading the last two threads, I've come to the conclusion that I may have been underrating Patrick Ewing a bit. I was planning on starting to campaign for 2016 Draymond now that Robinson is off the board, but after reading the conversations about Ewing, I think I rate peak Ewing over peak Draymond, and maybe over peak Robinson(still not sure on that).

2. 1994 Ewing - definitely worse box score stats than 1990, but he was older, which generally coincides with less box score stats and more actual impact. Led the Knicks to not only the #1 defense, but arguably the best defense ever. I see peak Ewing as a +1.5-2.5 offense, +4.75-5.75 defense player.

3. 1993 Ewing - arguably better box score stats than 1994 when you look at the playoffs, but still very close. Knicks were still the number one defense this year, but not in the consideration for best all time.

What's the argument for 94 Ewing over any of 89-93? I get that his team did better but if you want to talk about his defense 92 and 93 are much better seasons with 93 being the only 60 win team Ewing was ever on despite having less talent than the 94 Knicks (who added Doc at PG).

Also the 93 Knicks are quite literally the best defense of all time. How is the team with the best relative DRTG since Bill Russell, "not in the consideration for the best all time?"

Here's the top 10 defenses since 76 by z-score:

Code: Select all

RANK   Team   Offense   Defense   Total [anchor]
#01   93 NYK   -0.64   -2.77   +2.14 [Patrick Ewing]
#02   04 SAS   -0.20   -2.49   +2.30 [Tim Duncan]
#03   08 BOS   +0.79   -2.49   +3.28 [Kevin Garnett]
#04   94 NYK   -0.17   -2.46   +2.29 [Patrick Ewing]
#05   07 CHI   -0.53   -2.36   +1.83 [Ben Wallace]
#06   14 IND   -0.81   -2.33   +1.52 [Roy Hibbert, Paul George]
#07   16 SAS   +1.23   -2.33   +3.56 [Kawhi Leonard]
#07   07 SAS   +0.95   -2.26   +3.21 [Tim Duncan]
#08   05 SAS   +0.44   -2.24   +2.68 [Tim Duncan]
#09   11 CHI   +0.33   -2.13   +2.46 [Joakim Noah, Luol Deng]
#10   11 BOS   -0.32   -2.13   +1.81 [Kevin Garnett]

Their playoff DRTG doesn't look too hot but he played Reggie Miller in round 1 (I've argued before he's a top 10ish offensive postseason player ever and his regularized scoring production in the playoffs from 92-96 is the same as Curry's regularized regular season production from 15-19) and MJ in the ECF which made their postseason DRTG look bad. Against the Hornets in round 2, the one team not featuring one of the top 10ish offensive players in postseason history, they held Zo and LJ to a -9.0 ORTG vs their regular season average a series after they tore up the Celtics defense.

1. 2015 Chris Paul - Lead the Clippers to second best SRS. Arguably the best defensive PG ever, and up there with some of the best offensive players ever, maybe a slight step down. Top tier impact metrics, consistently. Arguably the best impact player after Lebron and KG, and that includes guys like Duncan and Shaq. I actually thought he was a bit better in 2014, but oh well. On a +/- scale (not elgees total SRS scale), I see peak Chris as a +5-6 offense, +1.5-2.5 defense player. I feel like a lot of people see 2008 as his peak, but I see that more as a 2009 Lebron statistical peak, but not actually his best in terms of championship odds.

What evidence do we have that CP3 is anywhere near Jason Kidd defensively or even anywhere near a +1.5-2.5 defensive player at all because these are some insane claims. I think he's a very good defender, especially in his Clippers form, but he never really seemed like a super impactful guy on that end unlike Kidd/GP/Clyde who anchored top defenses.

Also his impact numbers lag far behind Shaq and Duncan. They're on par with Kidd and Nash which is top 5ish most years but not top tier with someone like LeBron.

Chris Paul is weird cause he seems to get injured so often. Injury in the playoffs basically ruins that season for me, otherwise I would have voted 2016 Curry as top 5, or maybe even top 3(not sure on that). Was considering 2008 Paul as that's his best year in terms of box score stats, but again, box score stats are a young mans game, and box score stats overrate young players. There's simply no way I can convince myself that a 22 year old Chris is better than a 29 year old Chris.

Why not? Personally I feel there's no way I can convince myself 29 year old CP3 is better than young CP3. He improved his midrange jumper and man to man defense as his career went on but he lost his athleticism after tearing his meniscus and was on a team he was arguably hurting with his horrible leadership if we're really going to be honest. Usually locker room issues wouldn't come up, but:

1. Chris Paul missed 20 games in 2014 and the team's SRS went up +0.9
2. Chris Paul showed no improvement from 2014 to 2015 in his game.
3. The Clippers' improvement was clearly not a fluke, but was instead a result of Blake Griffin running point when he was hurt.
4. Blake averaged 28/8/4 on 61 TS% with a 122 ORTG without CP3 and 21/10/3 on 56 TS% with a 111 ORTG with CP3 in 2014 IIRC.
5. He was clearly disliked by his most important teammate and openly beefing with his HOF bound head coach.

Then we get into the fact that with all that talent he played with in LA they never had a better team than the 08 Hornets. Teams that were about as good, but none that were better despite the fact he played with WAAAAAY more talent and a WAAAAAY better coach in Los Angeles. I'm just not seeing it here.

Great response. I was going by memory with Ewing, and I may have gotten years mixed up. Whichever year it was that they were arguably the best defense ever is my vote for peak Ewing.

Re Paul's defense: I do think there's evidence to support him being Kidd level, but I also have Kidd as slightly better than Paul.

I don't have access to my RAPM files on my current laptop, and I generally don't put much stock in single year RAPM, but looking at 4 year RAPM from 2012-2016, Paul has:

ORAPM of +6.6
DRAPM of +3.2

with ~12,000 minutes played

Total of +9.8, which is 4th best all time, behind only 12-16 Lebron, 07-11 Lebron, 02-06 Garnett, and 97-01 Jordan, and well ahead of Shaq(+7.7) and Duncan(+8.8)'s bests, though the years were different, so not really comparable.

[DatAsh]

As for 22 year old Paul vs 29 year old Paul. In general, I think players tend to peak from 27-32, though their statistical peak is probably a bit earlier(due to a better regular season motor). For me, 22 year old Paul's defense isn't on the same level as 29 year old Paul. Offense is comparable.

[freethedevil]

Do you seriously believe the Spurs would’ve beaten the Warriors in 2017 if Kawhi didn’t get hurt?

Its possible because they had the best player on the court with playoff tested veterans and the best coach, they were definitely going to steal home court.

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

There is no way to know that and it is to ridiculous to assert that.

The cavs weren't as good as the spurs either unless we only look at offense.

[LA Bird]

With 12 votes, the point totals are:

1) 11 Dirk = 17.5 points
2) 08 Kobe = 12.5 points
T3) 83 Moses = 9.0 points
T3) 14 Durant = 9.0 points
5) 49 Mikan = 7.5 points

11 Dirk wins. A total of 20 different seasons received at least one vote, the most of any round yet (I think).

[No-more-rings]

Its possible because they had the best player on the court with playoff tested veterans and the best coach, they were definitely going to steal home court.

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

There is no way to know that and it is to ridiculous to assert that.

The cavs weren't as good as the spurs either unless we only look at offense.

Which part is ridiculous?

I find it absurd that the Spurs could take more than 2 games against those Warriors.

[freethedevil]

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

There is no way to know that and it is to ridiculous to assert that.

The cavs weren't as good as the spurs either unless we only look at offense.

Which part is ridiculous?

I find it absurd that the Spurs could take more than 2 games against those Warriors.

Based on what? Haven't you heard of variance.

[No-more-rings]

There is no way to know that and it is to ridiculous to assert that.

The cavs weren't as good as the spurs either unless we only look at offense.

Which part is ridiculous?

I find it absurd that the Spurs could take more than 2 games against those Warriors.

Based on what? Haven't you heard of variance.

No..i’ve never heard of these big words you are throwing at me.

What’s your basis for assuming that the Spurs could’ve/would’ve won 3 games or possibly the series against the Warriors?

The Warriors had a comparable defense, much better offense and SRS and were again killing the competition.

There is no good reason to think they could’ve..unless there was some freak injury to Curry or Durant. It’s simply fantasy and nothing more.

[trex_8063]

With 12 votes, the point totals are:

1) 11 Dirk = 17.5 points
2) 08 Kobe = 12.5 points
T3) 83 Moses = 9.0 points
T3) 14 Durant = 9.0 points
5) 49 Mikan = 7.5 points

11 Dirk wins. A total of 20 different seasons received at least one vote, the most of any round yet (I think).

I’d expect it to get more scattered from here on. Any of about 6-7 (more??) candidates for #20 seem appropriate to me.

[cecilthesheep]

Oh please...the Warriors were firing on all cylinders and went on to obliterate a great Cavs team, and overall went 16-1 in the playoffs. The Spurs wouldn’t have taken more than 2 games from them and that’s being generous.

There is no way to know that and it is to ridiculous to assert that.

The cavs weren't as good as the spurs either unless we only look at offense.

Which part is ridiculous?

I find it absurd that the Spurs could take more than 2 games against those Warriors.

call me a homer but I'm actually totally in on the idea that the Spurs could have beat the warriors that year. That spurs team was REALLY good. Way better than people remember. It's easy to say the Warriors were just unbeatable looking back on it but the reality is they were very close to losing every single year. Once it was the Thunder, once it was the Rockets, once the Cavs did beat them, and in 2017 it could have been the Spurs.