The Next Official All things Frank Ntilikina Thread

[TheScout31]

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

Funny thing is that Frank's worst lineup (-9) had Axel Toupane in it, who ended the game with a 167 dRTG and 0oRTG. De Colo was in Frank's two worst lineups and he ended the game with a 109 dRTG and 74 oRTG. De Colo played like crap on the whole. The -4 lineup was Gobert, De Colo (crap game), Labeyrie, and Batum (poor game)...so two bigs and two wings who played badly.

It's not even like Frank being -16 was his fault - complete victim of circumstance here.

[Deeeez Knicks]

+/- isnt a good stat to use especially in small sample sizes (per game).

Frank definitely looks better, but thats not hard to say compared to last year. There are some encouraging signs for sure though.

Hes still someone i would want to keep and develop. His defensive ceiling is still pretty high and he can disrupt a game without having the ball. That has value a lot if value.

He really needs as many minutes as possible and time on the court. Unfortunately, not sure if that will happen next year here.

[VECTORMAN]

Handle is better, more aggressive on offense, using his body better, passing is better (those live action passes weren’t there even last year), footwork and burst is better...

He still needs to continue to improve, but, again, to say he’s stagnated in terms of development is false.

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

Hey... here's a couple guys who get it.

I'm in my 30s now. The older I get, the more I realize just how young 21 is. Frank came from France to the Big Apple at the ripe age of 19. He was a damn child. He's only had 2 years in the Knicks' system, which hasn't been the perfect picture of health. If you're a big Knicks fan and don't have the patience to at least wait out Frank's 3rd season in the NBA, then I don't know what to tell ya.

I'm pretty excited to see him this year. I don't need Frank to be the scorer I expect RJ to be. Everyone is different. RJ has the potential to be an offensive machine. Frank has the potential to be the ultimate glue guy, and a local star in his own right if the team can develop into a playoff contender.

[br7knicks]

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

[DOT]

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

[VECTORMAN]

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

I don't think it's very practical to speculate either way. Just gotta let the season play out.

[MadGrinch]

Handle is better, more aggressive on offense, using his body better, passing is better (those live action passes weren’t there even last year), footwork and burst is better...

He still needs to continue to improve, but, again, to say he’s stagnated in terms of development is false.

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

Hey... here's a couple guys who get it.

I'm in my 30s now. The older I get, the more I realize just how young 21 is. Frank came from France to the Big Apple at the ripe age of 19. He was a damn child. He's only had 2 years in the Knicks' system, which hasn't been the perfect picture of health. If you're a big Knicks fan and don't have the patience to at least wait out Frank's 3rd season in the NBA, then I don't know what to tell ya.

I'm pretty excited to see him this year. I don't need Frank to be the scorer I expect RJ to be. Everyone is different. RJ has the potential to be an offensive machine. Frank has the potential to be the ultimate glue guy, and a local star in his own right if the team can develop into a playoff contender.

I'll go even further I think Frank starts alongside RJ because he's the best fit and RJ is the future provided Frank can just be a passable 3 point shooter(34%)

the same people who complain about the young players and want them gone are the reason the knicks haven't believed they can rebuild through the draft

[god shammgod]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

[VECTORMAN]

Handle is better, more aggressive on offense, using his body better, passing is better (those live action passes weren’t there even last year), footwork and burst is better...

He still needs to continue to improve, but, again, to say he’s stagnated in terms of development is false.

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

Hey... here's a couple guys who get it.

I'm in my 30s now. The older I get, the more I realize just how young 21 is. Frank came from France to the Big Apple at the ripe age of 19. He was a damn child. He's only had 2 years in the Knicks' system, which hasn't been the perfect picture of health. If you're a big Knicks fan and don't have the patience to at least wait out Frank's 3rd season in the NBA, then I don't know what to tell ya.

I'm pretty excited to see him this year. I don't need Frank to be the scorer I expect RJ to be. Everyone is different. RJ has the potential to be an offensive machine. Frank has the potential to be the ultimate glue guy, and a local star in his own right if the team can develop into a playoff contender.

I'll go even further I think Frank starts alongside RJ because he's the best fit and RJ is the future provided Frank can just be a passable 3 point shooter(34%)

the same people who complain about the young players and want them gone are the reason the knicks haven't believed they can rebuild through the draft

Agreed. But be careful, the pitch forks will come out if you start criticizing the fan base here. We're only allowed to dump all over players and coaches and Dolan, who makes decisions to appease those same fans you speak of. No time for self reflection.

[br7knicks]

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

you're right about green being more valuable than roberson.

but roberson is so good at defense, and so important to the success that OKC had (before he got hurt), that they kept playing him 26-30 mpg, despite being the absolute worst shooter, for anyone under 7 foot, in the NBA.

i'm not saying frank is AS good as roberson on defense. but frank makes up for it, on offense, with his high IQ. he is a step behind, but at 21 years old, he has room to grow.

correct, he does have only a month or two where he sucks ass at 3s, which brings his overall 3PT shooting percentage down.


i see it as the opposite. i see absolutely no reason to get rid of him - unless he keeps getting hurt, and shows no desire to be on the floor. not everyone needs to be westbrook level of emotions, as that'd actually be bad, but frank makes up for his deficiencies in other ways. you want to keep guys like that around.

plus, having a better team around him, especially someone with low post scoring ability, and a PG that can actually run an offense (payton) will help someone like frank.

[MadGrinch]

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

that is mostly true tony allen never became a consistent threat from 3 and under Fizdale actually played his most minutes ,coaches will always make allowances for the elite , if you are a dotson level defender you better hit some jumpshots .

frank actually has all defensive team talent on defense, even when he's struggling he's going to be given chances.

but i dont see ntilikina as a defensive specialist , he can run an offense , and hit shots , thats different than being a guy who just stands in a corner ala bruce bowen , he's more kirk hinrich than andre roberson imo.

[VECTORMAN]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

[god shammgod]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

[DOT]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Think a lot of it is, with Frank you can clearly say we missed on Mitchell. Knox has that same quality of, he sucks hard but has potential, but there wasn't a clear star taken after him. Even SGA, who I think most of us would take in a redraft, isn't seen as that big of a miss. And with RJ, as far as we know he was BPA, and there's no controversy yet. Guys like Mitchell, Trier, and Dot all overperformed draft expectations, and DSJ was a trade and the best package we could get for KP (as far as we know), so there's not much to talk about there. So there's a lot more feeling of regret of drafting Frank and not them guys, at least not yet

And everyone else is an expiring contract or Julius Randle. We're just bored and there's not much to talk about

[VECTORMAN]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Makes sense to me. He's a lotto pick who hasn't turned into Jordan yet.

We did it with Gallo and KP. Already patience is thin for Knox. And RJ will get it too if he doesn't win MVP this year.

[MadGrinch]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

but he is the biggest deal on the team right now .

he's the only one still playing

at a position that is contested both in the world cup and on the knicks.

unlike the rest of the team there is actually stuff to talk about when it comes to him.

[god shammgod]

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Think a lot of it is, with Frank you can clearly say we missed on Mitchell. Knox has that same quality of, he sucks hard but has potential, but there wasn't a clear star taken after him. Even SGA, who I think most of us would take in a redraft, isn't seen as that big of a miss. And with RJ, as far as we know he was BPA, and there's no controversy yet. Guys like Mitchell, Trier, and Dot all overperformed draft expectations, and DSJ was a trade and the best package we could get for KP (as far as we know), so there's not much to talk about there

And everyone else is an expiring contract or Julius Randle. We're just bored and there's not much to talk about

it's not a new debate though, this has been going on for while. maybe it's the mitchell thing or something else you said. i just think for me, once a guy is clearly in the "not going to be great" category of prospects, it just doesn't matter that much to me. if frank improves his jumper and becomes a solid role player or not isn't all that meaningful for the knicks future.

[MaseInYourFace]

to me its funny

frank has some games where he shoots poorly but his team is like +15 when he's out there and people complain say it doesn't matter if he cant make shots

he has a game where he scores 8 points on 5 shots in 13 minutes while making both his 3's...and people complain because his team didn't do well when he was out there.

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

What’s the cheapest we can keep him at realistically? Let’s say he only improves a little and teams aren’t that interested.

[HarthorneWingo]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

When you look at the team's defensive stats when Frank's on the court, as GONYK has posted many time, it appears that the discussion of his improvement and ability to get more minutes is important.

Also, have you taken your Metamucil yet today?

[MaseInYourFace]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

A lot of people here are so caught up in the ideal vision of Ntilikina they don’t see the reality.