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Political Roundtable Part XXVI

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dobrojim
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1101 » by dobrojim » Tue Sep 3, 2019 5:54 pm

this is a frequently posted meme on FB. I've never posted it on my personal page but
I've seen it more than a few times. I suggest if you (DA1) are going to regurgitate
right wing talking points about how libs are all a bunch of freeloaders wanting
everything given to them and expect us to read it, read this. Also remember that
in terms of return on tax dollars paid, red states are arguably the biggest freeloaders
of all.

I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for. Spoiler alert: Not every liberal is the same, though the majority of liberals I know think along roughly these same lines:

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it's because I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion-dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally). I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be *****, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc. -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your blessed guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is the enforcement of present laws and enacting new, common sense gun regulations. Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1102 » by Pointgod » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:00 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
Pointgod wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
It's more the constant chatter on here on how people are intentionally held down, some have the audacity to blame it on race. yet as I mentioned, 97% of the Indians I've seen came here with nothing, and made it to the middle class through sheer grit and God's grace. Last time I checked, poverty in Indian is far worse than anything America will ever know, so coming poor from india is true poverty, and Indians are minorities and colored folk too.


I mean this is absolute bull. The vast majority of immigrants from all countries are usually have the financial resources and are more educated than native born Americans. It’s not like you’re seeing the majority of Indians coming to America are from the untouchables caste. Structural racism in America has hit historical affected blacks and native Americans far worse than any other race.


Financial resource? Stories of people coming to this country with 25, 40, 60, 200 dollars whatever have you aren't just some BS painted picture to make it look rosy, it's fact.

And even then, many of those people whatever little they were making at the time still sent a good chunk of it back home to their families.


Lol actually it is. The whole idea of the American dream is fabricated bull to keep the working class from holding their government more accountable to the people they serve. The most likely place to achieve the American dream are places in Europe. People who come over are more educated than the average American and have some resources to get there. You won’t see a homeless person from another country head to America only to even become middle class. Hence why I’m going to wager there’s a minimal percentage of untouchables coming from India.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1103 » by daoneandonly » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:16 pm

dobrojim wrote:this is a frequently posted meme on FB. I've never posted it on my personal page but
I've seen it more than a few times. I suggest if you (DA1) are going to regurgitate
right wing talking points about how libs are all a bunch of freeloaders wanting
everything given to them and expect us to read it, read this. Also remember that
in terms of return on tax dollars paid, red states are arguably the biggest freeloaders
of all.

I'm a liberal, but that doesn't mean what a lot of you apparently think it does. Let's break it down, shall we? Because quite frankly, I'm getting a little tired of being told what I believe and what I stand for. Spoiler alert: Not every liberal is the same, though the majority of liberals I know think along roughly these same lines:

1. I believe a country should take care of its weakest members. A country cannot call itself civilized when its children, disabled, sick, and elderly are neglected. Period.

2. I believe healthcare is a right, not a privilege. Somehow that's interpreted as "I believe Obamacare is the end-all, be-all." This is not the case. I'm fully aware that the ACA has problems, that a national healthcare system would require everyone to chip in, and that it's impossible to create one that is devoid of flaws, but I have yet to hear an argument against it that makes "let people die because they can't afford healthcare" a better alternative. I believe healthcare should be far cheaper than it is, and that everyone should have access to it. And no, I'm not opposed to paying higher taxes in the name of making that happen.

3. I believe education should be affordable. It doesn't necessarily have to be free (though it works in other countries so I'm mystified as to why it can't work in the US), but at the end of the day, there is no excuse for students graduating college saddled with five- or six-figure debt.

4. I don't believe your money should be taken from you and given to people who don't want to work. I have literally never encountered anyone who believes this. Ever. I just have a massive moral problem with a society where a handful of people can possess the majority of the wealth while there are people literally starving to death, freezing to death, or dying because they can't afford to go to the doctor. Fair wages, lower housing costs, universal healthcare, affordable education, and the wealthy actually paying their share would go a long way toward alleviating this. Somehow believing that makes me a communist.

5. I don't throw around "I'm willing to pay higher taxes" lightly. If I'm suggesting something that involves paying more, well, it's because I'm fine with paying my share as long as it's actually going to something besides lining corporate pockets or bombing other countries while Americans die without healthcare.

6. I believe companies should be required to pay their employees a decent, livable wage. Somehow this is always interpreted as me wanting burger flippers to be able to afford a penthouse apartment and a Mercedes. What it actually means is that no one should have to work three full-time jobs just to keep their head above water. Restaurant servers should not have to rely on tips, multibillion-dollar companies should not have employees on food stamps, workers shouldn't have to work themselves into the ground just to barely make ends meet, and minimum wage should be enough for someone to work 40 hours and live.

7. I am not anti-Christian. I have no desire to stop Christians from being Christians, to close churches, to ban the Bible, to forbid prayer in school, etc. (BTW, prayer in school is NOT illegal; *compulsory* prayer in school is - and should be - illegal). All I ask is that Christians recognize *my* right to live according to *my* beliefs. When I get pissed off that a politician is trying to legislate Scripture into law, I'm not "offended by Christianity" -- I'm offended that you're trying to force me to live by your religion's rules. You know how you get really upset at the thought of Muslims imposing Sharia law on you? That's how I feel about Christians trying to impose biblical law on me. Be a Christian. Do your thing. Just don't force it on me or mine.

8. I don't believe LGBT people should have more rights than you. I just believe they should have the *same* rights as you.

9. I don't believe illegal immigrants should come to America and have the world at their feet, especially since THIS ISN'T WHAT THEY DO (spoiler: undocumented immigrants are ineligible for all those programs they're supposed to be abusing, and if they're "stealing" your job it's because your employer is hiring illegally). I believe there are far more humane ways to handle undocumented immigration than our current practices (i.e., detaining children, splitting up families, ending DACA, etc).

10. I don't believe the government should regulate everything, but since greed is such a driving force in our country, we NEED regulations to prevent cut corners, environmental destruction, tainted food/water, unsafe materials in consumable goods or medical equipment, etc. It's not that I want the government's hands in everything -- I just don't trust people trying to make money to ensure that their products/practices/etc. are actually SAFE. Is the government devoid of shadiness? Of course not. But with those regulations in place, consumers have recourse if they're harmed and companies are liable for medical bills, environmental cleanup, etc. Just kind of seems like common sense when the alternative to government regulation is letting companies bring their bottom line into the equation.

11. I believe our current administration is fascist. Not because I dislike them or because I can’t get over an election, but because I've spent too many years reading and learning about the Third Reich to miss the similarities. Not because any administration I dislike must be *****, but because things are actually mirroring authoritarian and fascist regimes of the past.

12. I believe the systemic racism and misogyny in our society is much worse than many people think, and desperately needs to be addressed. Which means those with privilege -- white, straight, male, economic, etc. -- need to start listening, even if you don't like what you're hearing, so we can start dismantling everything that's causing people to be marginalized.

13. I am not interested in coming after your blessed guns, nor is anyone serving in government. What I am interested in is the enforcement of present laws and enacting new, common sense gun regulations. Got another opinion? Put it on your page, not mine.

14. I believe in so-called political correctness. I prefer to think it’s social politeness. If I call you Chuck and you say you prefer to be called Charles I’ll call you Charles. It’s the polite thing to do. Not because everyone is a delicate snowflake, but because as Maya Angelou put it, when we know better, we do better. When someone tells you that a term or phrase is more accurate/less hurtful than the one you're using, you now know better. So why not do better? How does it hurt you to NOT hurt another person?

15. I believe in funding sustainable energy, including offering education to people currently working in coal or oil so they can change jobs. There are too many sustainable options available for us to continue with coal and oil. Sorry, billionaires. Maybe try investing in something else.

16. I believe that women should not be treated as a separate class of human. They should be paid the same as men who do the same work, should have the same rights as men and should be free from abuse. Why on earth shouldn’t they be?

I think that about covers it. Bottom line is that I'm a liberal because I think we should take care of each other. That doesn't mean you should work 80 hours a week so your lazy neighbor can get all your money. It just means I don't believe there is any scenario in which preventable suffering is an acceptable outcome as long as money is saved.


It's an interesting read, allow me to chime in on each point:

1. Already BS. There's nothing more defenseless than a baby, so he/she starts off pretty poorly with conjuring up this emotion and believing what most libs believe on the subject.

2. Agree for the most part, healthcare should absolutely be a right. Every Tom, John, Tracy, Linda, and Trung should have it. Raising taxes are obviously the way to do so, but the problem again is the progressive tax system. There are people who will as a result end up having to pay far more than others. Paying more in dollar amount sis expected, but having to pay so much more % wise is not right.

3. Agreed, the price of a college education is a complete joke

4. As I said previously, yes everyone should pay their share. The wealthy who hide behind loopholes should not be able to do so, and fair to me is everyone having to allot the same % of their income to taxes and the betterment of the community we live in.

5. Sure, good points, but again, the progressive tax system does not accomplish or address this

6. In said scenario, do we eliminate tips all together? Because an increase of this magnitude has to be paid by someone right? So wouldn't ti make sense to eliminate tips so the consumer isn't hit even harder?

7. As mentioned prior, there are things that fall in line with Christian beliefs that the Dems are professing and supporting, but just refuse to identify it as Christian though it is.

8. Agree, no caveats here

9. Agree

10. Pretty much agree

11. What a ridiculous reach with that comparison.

12. Exactly what I was trying to allude to that Zonk said no body believes or thinks, this is just simply not true.

13. Speak truth, agree.

14. Cool, well said

15. Agree for the most part

16. Agreed, in the 3 jobs I've had, all working with payroll system data I have yet to see this practice, but it does exist and shouldnt.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1104 » by dobrojim » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:27 pm

You continue to argue in bad faith that babies and fetuses are the same.
They're not. If you believe they are, I think it's fine for you to live according
to those beliefs. What's not fine is your insistence that everyone else adhere
to those same beliefs.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1105 » by daoneandonly » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:45 pm

dobrojim wrote:You continue to argue in bad faith that babies and fetuses are the same.
They're not. If you believe they are, I think it's fine for you to live according
to those beliefs. What's not fine is your insistence that everyone else adhere
to those same beliefs.


But same can be said about much is given, much is expected and people having some sort an obligation to help others. Why is it okay for the left to try and instill that belief and practice on others, yet abortion can't fall in the same category?

An argument can be made that no one owes anything to anyone in this world. Except I'd argue, parents owe their children a chance at life and an upbringing.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1106 » by dobrojim » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:04 pm

There is another party involved that you are completely ignoring, the would be mother.
Your position is that she should have no say in the matter, that the govt can, following your
beliefs, impose your will on them, whether that is what they believe or not.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1108 » by daoneandonly » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:15 pm

dobrojim wrote:There is another party involved that you are completely ignoring, the would be mother.
Your position is that she should have no say in the matter, that the govt can, following your
beliefs, impose your will on them, whether that is what they believe or not.


Well its a matter of who you feel should get the say I suppose. The baby who did not do anything to be in the predicament, or the mother who did, should have been well aware that getting pregnant was a possibility. People who support funding PP have no issue with said mother using government money to take care of her body, that way shouldn't be okay either then under this premise.

Again, I've constantly only brought up abortion in the case of an accidental pregnancy, not rape, or the life is in danger.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1109 » by doclinkin » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:31 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
It's nice how you read only what goes in line with supposed progressive positivity There have been several on this board that counter the flat tax argument with how unfair things are already are to some and how its impossible to go from the "rags to riches" argument. I say it's been proven otherwise, it doesn't have to be riches, rags to middle class is just fine.


Oh, so I confront you with a lie so you pretend to have said something else? Pathetic! May I remind you of what you wrote above?

"people are intentionally held down, some have the audacity to blame it on race" Note that there is NOTHING in that text about flat taxes. LIAR!


You're a former mod, fix the search functionality on here and I'll be happy to provide proof.



Too busy to chime in, but: google works on realgm threads.

AND

from a quick google search

In 2003, only 1.5 percent of Indian immigrants in the United States were Dalits or members of lower castes, according to the Center for the Advanced Study of India at the University of Pennsylvania. More than 90 percent were from high or dominant castes.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1110 » by dobrojim » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:36 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
dobrojim wrote:There is another party involved that you are completely ignoring, the would be mother.
Your position is that she should have no say in the matter, that the govt can, following your
beliefs, impose your will on them, whether that is what they believe or not.


Well its a matter of who you feel should get the say I suppose. The baby who did not do anything to be in the predicament, or the mother who did, should have been well aware that getting pregnant was a possibility. People who support funding PP have no issue with said mother using government money to take care of her body, that way shouldn't be okay either then under this premise.

Again, I've constantly only brought up abortion in the case of an accidental pregnancy, not rape, or the life is in danger.


The govt hasn't funded abortions since at least the 1980s. Henry Hyde, the "Hyde" amendment.

Your position is still a completely black and white one where life's complications don't matter and who
should have more power in making decisions falls to the govt, as directed by zealots like yourself.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1111 » by pancakes3 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:51 pm

biologically, a fetus is different from an infant. you can quibble about the line of when a fetus becomes viable, but in persisting on equating all wombed entities with all born entities is just factually incorrect. moreover, nobody is advocating for the absolute right to terminate all pregnancies without restriction. take a state like Alaska, that has no restrictions on how late an abortion could take place - there was only 1 reported case of post-20-week abortion in 2015. week 20 out of 40. and a 20-week old fetus as a 0% chance of viability. nationally, only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks, and virtually all of them due to medical complications - not elective birth control. 91.1% of all abortions occur within the first trimester. if you're trying to equate a 12-week-old fetus with a human baby, you're devaluing the worth of a human baby. if you're trying to say that the 1.3% is still murder, you're saying that given the choice to save a mother vs. saving a fetus, the mother's life has no value.

historically, abortion is a non-issue, designed by the evangelical right in the 80's to be an emotional trigger, clouding actual issues, to win over working class votes. even amongst deeply religious and misogynistic 19th and early 20th century Americans, abortion was an accepted practice. keep in mind, this is in an era of our puritanical history where women couldn't even vote.

practically speaking, abortion rates have gone down every single year since 1990, and is currently at its lowest numbers since Roe was passed. thanks to the services provided by organizations such as planned parenthood - be it education, or contraceptives, the decision to abort is becoming less and less frequent. teen pregnancy is down. birth rate is down.

legally, Roe and Casey are such deeply entrenched, well reasoned precedents, that no Court, no matter how right wing, would be able to find legal footing to overturn.

the best that a conservative Court can hope to do is chip away at Roe and Casey, preserving the right to abort on a federal level, but allowing states to restrict it. this would lead to a bifucation of states between places like Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi and abortion-tolerant states. The Alabamas and Georgias of the world would be able to push the law as far as they can push it (if i had to guess, setting the viability limits prior to 20 weeks would difficult to implement because of Roe, but states would be allowed to tax abortion providers, indirectly banning abortions, and abortion providers would be subject to the whims of federal grant money and charitable funding - gets fuzzy with universal health care; probably cannot criminalize providers, seeing as how abortion is still protected under Roe).

and i know this is a lot to slog through, but even in recognizing that there's a slog highlights the sh*tshow nonsense the "abortion debate" really is. it's a ruse. a distraction. it's a way for republicans to vilify democrats without dems having to actually do anything actually evil - just convince that Dem platforms aren't just wrong, but intrinsically evil. abortion isn't just sad, it's EVIL. welfare isn't just sad, it's a MORAL FAILING of a LAZY POPULOUS. socialism isn't just a check on late-stage capitalism, setting floors and ceilings, in an effort to prevent too much money funneling into too few people, but an UNARTICULATED COMMUNIST ATTACK ON AMERICAN VALUES.

and when Dems cry foul on policy disagreements such as military spending or crony capitalism, the cognitive dissonance within the intellectually lazy doesn't allow for them to change parties because the moral stakes of MURDER outweigh any viable counterarguments on the other side.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1112 » by doclinkin » Tue Sep 3, 2019 10:23 pm

pancakes3 wrote:biologically, a fetus is different from an infant. you can quibble about the line of when a fetus becomes viable, but in persisting on equating all wombed entities with all born entities is just factually incorrect. moreover, nobody is advocating for the absolute right to terminate all pregnancies without restriction. take a state like Alaska, that has no restrictions on how late an abortion could take place - there was only 1 reported case of post-20-week abortion in 2015. week 20 out of 40. and a 20-week old fetus as a 0% chance of viability. nationally, only 1.3% of abortions occur after 20 weeks, and virtually all of them due to medical complications - not elective birth control. 91.1% of all abortions occur within the first trimester. if you're trying to equate a 12-week-old fetus with a human baby, you're devaluing the worth of a human baby. if you're trying to say that the 1.3% is still murder, you're saying that given the choice to save a mother vs. saving a fetus, the mother's life has no value.

historically, abortion is a non-issue, designed by the evangelical right in the 80's to be an emotional trigger, clouding actual issues, to win over working class votes. even amongst deeply religious and misogynistic 19th and early 20th century Americans, abortion was an accepted practice. keep in mind, this is in an era of our puritanical history where women couldn't even vote.

practically speaking, abortion rates have gone down every single year since 1990, and is currently at its lowest numbers since Roe was passed. thanks to the services provided by organizations such as planned parenthood - be it education, or contraceptives, the decision to abort is becoming less and less frequent. teen pregnancy is down. birth rate is down.

legally, Roe and Casey are such deeply entrenched, well reasoned precedents, that no Court, no matter how right wing, would be able to find legal footing to overturn.

the best that a conservative Court can hope to do is chip away at Roe and Casey, preserving the right to abort on a federal level, but allowing states to restrict it. this would lead to a bifucation of states between places like Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi and abortion-tolerant states. The Alabamas and Georgias of the world would be able to push the law as far as they can push it (if i had to guess, setting the viability limits prior to 20 weeks would difficult to implement because of Roe, but states would be allowed to tax abortion providers, indirectly banning abortions, and abortion providers would be subject to the whims of federal grant money and charitable funding - gets fuzzy with universal health care; probably cannot criminalize providers, seeing as how abortion is still protected under Roe).

and i know this is a lot to slog through, but even in recognizing that there's a slog highlights the sh*tshow nonsense the "abortion debate" really is. it's a ruse. a distraction. it's a way for republicans to vilify democrats without dems having to actually do anything actually evil - just convince that Dem platforms aren't just wrong, but intrinsically evil. abortion isn't just sad, it's EVIL. welfare isn't just sad, it's a MORAL FAILING of a LAZY POPULOUS. socialism isn't just a check on late-stage capitalism, setting floors and ceilings, in an effort to prevent too much money funneling into too few people, but an UNARTICULATED COMMUNIST ATTACK ON AMERICAN VALUES.

and when Dems cry foul on policy disagreements such as military spending or crony capitalism, the cognitive dissonance within the intellectually lazy doesn't allow for them to change parties because the moral stakes of MURDER outweigh any viable counterarguments on the other side.


I'm making this HOF so I don't have to search for it later. A well written encapsulation of the argument.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1113 » by verbal8 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 11:35 pm

Pointgod wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:It disturbs me that only someone who is the target of a worldwide social media hurricane can get an idiotic decision like this reversed, but yay, good news:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/03/palestinian-student-originally-denied-entry-us-now-allowed-attend-harvard/


Where are all the war on religion people to speak up for this intelligent young man that was banned from the country because of his religion?


But they don't care about real religious freedom - only the ability to impose their views on others.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1114 » by pancakes3 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 12:34 am

inspired by true events

Pence: Ok, well I think I'm about to head out. Have a good weekend, boss.
Trump: Got any labor day plans?
Pence: Well... I'm going to Poland, because you decided literally 8 hours ago to cancel your trip there and instead spend the weekend playing two separate rounds of golf, and tweet 122 times about Dorian.
Trump: Sounds good. Tell Poland "Congrats" for me.
Pence: Well... it's the 80 year anniversary of the German blitzkrieg. It's not really a celebration.
Trump: You know we've got like, maybe 8 million Polish people in America. Maybe more. Fantastic people.
Pence: I'll be sure to tell them. I'm also going to Ireland for a meeting.
Trump: Ya know, I've got a place in Ireland. You should stay there.
Pence: Well, it's kind of last second. Again, you just cancelled a couple hours ago.
Trump: No, it's fine. I'm sure there are vacancies.
Pence: ::googles:: Um, it says here your hotel's in Doonbeg?
Trump: Yeah. Doonbeg. Beautiful place. Right by the ocean. Had to put in a retaining wall to fight globa... to fight possible rising sea levels.
Pence: I'm sure it's great but it's literally on the diametrically opposite side of the country. It's like, 180 miles from Dublin.
Trump: Yeah. Well, stay there, don't stay there, you're your own man. I'm just saying I have a property there.
Pence: That's as far as Annapolis to NYC. It just doesn't make logistical sense.
Trump: Well, we say potato, and the irish say potato. What makes logical sense to us, might not make sense to others. Look Mike, again. I'm not telling you to stay there. But there's been something like 300 high level terminations/resignations in my cabinet over the last 2 years, and I've got another 6 years coming.
Pence: Ya know what, I think my great grandmother is from Doonbeg. It'd be good to see the family.
Trump: Terrific.

true story: Doonbeg sells knock-off michael kors handbags in its gift shop.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/459781-trump-ahead-of-world-war-ii-anniversary-i-just-want-to-congratulate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump_administration_dismissals_and_resignations
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/a-night-in-doonbeg-trump-s-world-of-fake-designer-bags-nescaf%C3%A9-and-knickers-1.2896978
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1115 » by daoneandonly » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:37 am

doclinkin wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
Oh, so I confront you with a lie so you pretend to have said something else? Pathetic! May I remind you of what you wrote above?

"people are intentionally held down, some have the audacity to blame it on race" Note that there is NOTHING in that text about flat taxes. LIAR!


You're a former mod, fix the search functionality on here and I'll be happy to provide proof.



Too busy to chime in, but: google works on realgm threads.

AND

from a quick google search

In 2003, only 1.5 percent of Indian immigrants in the United States were Dalits or members of lower castes, according to the Center for the Advanced Study of India at the University of Pennsylvania. More than 90 percent were from high or dominant castes.


So let's go with this theory. Dalitis are what's considered the lowest class, street sweepers and cleaners. There are classes that are also low on this disgusting caste totem poll, Shrudas who are defined as laborers, and Vaishyas, who are grouped as merchants and farmers. Do you seriously think those two are so well off? That laborers and merchants form a 3rd world India have it made and hence did not have to struggle to make it in the US?

Not to mention, your focus is on the Hindu world, not all Indians are Hindu. Many are Christians And Muslim who are actually held down because of their belief, and yet still, somehow, someway manage to come to another country and grab that proverbial brass ring.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1116 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 4, 2019 2:33 pm

Jeebus, he really congratulated Poland for the 80th anniversary of them getting invaded by Germany? My grandparents - like so many others - had so many family members killed there in concentration camps... millions of people were killed horrifically, and he's treating this as a celebration... I'd say I'm done if I wasn't already done. He said it was a day of remembrance more than a celebration, and that's true, but... it's implying there's some celebration. It's important to remember, but there's NO celebration. You celebrate the end of a war; not the horrible beginning.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1117 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Sep 4, 2019 3:16 pm

dobrojim wrote:You continue to argue in bad faith that babies and fetuses are the same.
They're not. If you believe they are, I think it's fine for you to live according
to those beliefs. What's not fine is your insistence that everyone else adhere
to those same beliefs.


Look at his list of responses, though. Other than on this singular point, he's either agreeing or his disagreement only goes so far as to disagree with an analogy while admitting that the issues identified are still a problem even if he disagrees with the analogy. He has this one singular argument to hold on to. That's it. It's either that or he has to start admitting that all those other issues that he claims to be more liberal about aren't actually issues he's more liberal about.

And his argument isn't even a logically sound one. He's suggesting that liberals don't want to prevent abortions when they're the ones arguing for universal health care and access to health care that will, if done properly, actually reduce abortions while sacrificing that side of the equation in an attempt to ban abortions. There's more to his argument that he's saying but he won't say it because he hasn't found a logical means to say it that doesn't make him look bad, and he's definitely concerned about that.

As for extreme cases of what happens when abortions are banned and how the true issue is the state's ability to care for its people and not actually abortions, weirdly enough you can look no further than former communist states. Here's an article that only goes into some of the superficial aspects of what happened in Romania. The realities were much, much worse and abortions weren't actually prevented.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/16/what-actually-happens-when-a-country-bans-abortion-romania-alabama/
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1118 » by doclinkin » Wed Sep 4, 2019 3:42 pm

Ruzious wrote:Jeebus, he really congratulated Poland for the 80th anniversary of them getting invaded by Germany? My grandparents - like so many others - had so many family members killed there in concentration camps... millions of people were killed horrifically, and he's treating this as a celebration... I'd say I'm done if I wasn't already done. He said it was a day of remembrance more than a celebration, and that's true, but... it's implying there's some celebration. It's important to remember, but there's NO celebration. You celebrate the end of a war; not the horrible beginning.


Unless you think you are German, and a Nazi sympathizer, and thought of that as a victory. His Grandfather emigrated from Germany to the US, then attempted to repatriate to Germany but was kicked out because he had not completed military service. As Trump recalls it, it was his father who came over from Germany (nope, born in the US).

While declaring his love for Germany, Trump said he’s proud that his father was born in the country. “Born in a very wonderful place in Germany, so I have a great feeling for Germany,” Trump said. Fred Trump was born in the Bronx.


He has made that claim three times. He has claimed many ties that he is genetically superior and that his why he is successful. He honestly must think he is a scion of that Aryan superrace and that there's is likely an argument even in WW2 that there were good people on both sides. For all that he cozies up to strongmen and dictators, you don't think he admires Hitler?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1119 » by I_Like_Dirt » Wed Sep 4, 2019 3:48 pm

pancakes3 wrote:inspired by true events

Pence: Ok, well I think I'm about to head out. Have a good weekend, boss.
Trump: Got any labor day plans?
Pence: Well... I'm going to Poland, because you decided literally 8 hours ago to cancel your trip there and instead spend the weekend playing two separate rounds of golf, and tweet 122 times about Dorian.
Trump: Sounds good. Tell Poland "Congrats" for me.
Pence: Well... it's the 80 year anniversary of the German blitzkrieg. It's not really a celebration.
Trump: You know we've got like, maybe 8 million Polish people in America. Maybe more. Fantastic people.
Pence: I'll be sure to tell them. I'm also going to Ireland for a meeting.
Trump: Ya know, I've got a place in Ireland. You should stay there.
Pence: Well, it's kind of last second. Again, you just cancelled a couple hours ago.
Trump: No, it's fine. I'm sure there are vacancies.
Pence: ::googles:: Um, it says here your hotel's in Doonbeg?
Trump: Yeah. Doonbeg. Beautiful place. Right by the ocean. Had to put in a retaining wall to fight globa... to fight possible rising sea levels.
Pence: I'm sure it's great but it's literally on the diametrically opposite side of the country. It's like, 180 miles from Dublin.
Trump: Yeah. Well, stay there, don't stay there, you're your own man. I'm just saying I have a property there.
Pence: That's as far as Annapolis to NYC. It just doesn't make logistical sense.
Trump: Well, we say potato, and the irish say potato. What makes logical sense to us, might not make sense to others. Look Mike, again. I'm not telling you to stay there. But there's been something like 300 high level terminations/resignations in my cabinet over the last 2 years, and I've got another 6 years coming.
Pence: Ya know what, I think my great grandmother is from Doonbeg. It'd be good to see the family.
Trump: Terrific.

true story: Doonbeg sells knock-off michael kors handbags in its gift shop.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/459781-trump-ahead-of-world-war-ii-anniversary-i-just-want-to-congratulate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trump_administration_dismissals_and_resignations
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/a-night-in-doonbeg-trump-s-world-of-fake-designer-bags-nescaf%C3%A9-and-knickers-1.2896978


For what it's worth, your take on Pence seems woefully inaccurate to me until his very last line.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXVI 

Post#1120 » by Ruzious » Wed Sep 4, 2019 3:55 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Jeebus, he really congratulated Poland for the 80th anniversary of them getting invaded by Germany? My grandparents - like so many others - had so many family members killed there in concentration camps... millions of people were killed horrifically, and he's treating this as a celebration... I'd say I'm done if I wasn't already done. He said it was a day of remembrance more than a celebration, and that's true, but... it's implying there's some celebration. It's important to remember, but there's NO celebration. You celebrate the end of a war; not the horrible beginning.


Unless you think you are German, and a Nazi sympathizer, and thought of that as a victory. His Grandfather emigrated from Germany to the US, then attempted to repatriate to Germany but was kicked out because he had not completed military service. As Trump recalls it, it was his father who came over from Germany (nope, born in the US).

While declaring his love for Germany, Trump said he’s proud that his father was born in the country. “Born in a very wonderful place in Germany, so I have a great feeling for Germany,” Trump said. Fred Trump was born in the Bronx.


He has made that claim three times. He has claimed many ties that he is genetically superior and that his why he is successful. He honestly must think he is a scion of that Aryan superrace and that there's is likely an argument even in WW2 that there were good people on both sides. For all that he cozies up to strongmen and dictators, you don't think he admires Hitler?

It's literally unbelievable that the President of the US lies about something so basic and verifiable as where his father was born. Is it trying to pander to the white nationalists? Is it because he has a real passion for Nazis? Is it that he's just plain nuts?

Not only do I think he admires Hitler, but I think he would be Hitler if it was politically expedient to do so. It used to be unimaginable to have such thoughts about a US President, but this is where we are. To quote Sinclair Lews, It can't happen here.
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