#21 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[liamliam1234]

I am spending time arguing why you specifically are wrong because you are the only one here who wants to pretend Demar Derozan is a more valuable offensive piece than Kawhi Leonard. I am spending time focusing on you because other people have not tricked themselves into thinking that the Raptors as a whole were only useless against the “mediocre” 76ers defence because Kawhi does not pass enough.

[E-Balla]

My point is that no one is arguing those earlier years as his peak, so maybe there is more to this analysis than just glancing at relative offensive rating and saying, “Oh, Tim Duncan’s absence probably did not matter and is the only thing worth considering.”

Maybe the Raptors suffered on offence because they basically never had Valanciunas. Anyone can pick and choose like this.

In 2018 the Raps had a 111.1 ORTG with Val on the floor and a 109.2 ORTG without him. Again, gish gallop. Look something up before you say it for once.

Wait, hold up. Surely -1.9 without JV on the floor means their offense fell off a cliff when he sat, right? [ducks]

If that was how on/off worked, sure? With how it really works JV's on/off was being elevated by being in lineups with players that were important to that offense. The Raps had a 114.6 ORTG after trading him for Marc Gasol. What a great offensive player I guess obviously he's the reason their ORTG dropped and liamliam wasn't just looking for an excuse to write off pretty damning evidence.

[DatAsh]

I am spending time arguing why you specifically are wrong because you are the only one here who wants to pretend Demar Derozan is a more valuable offensive piece than Kawhi Leonard. I am spending time focusing on you because other people have not tricked themselves into thinking that the Raptors as a whole were only useless against the “mediocre” 76ers defence because Kawhi does not pass enough.

I might be misreading him, but i don’t think he’s saying that Derozan is better than Kawhi. I think he’s more just using Kawhi replacing Derozan(noting the fact that it lowered their ceiling, but raised raised their floor) as an argument for why 2016 Kawhi is better than 2019 Kawhi.

I don’t think I agree with the conclusion, but I need to look into it more when I get home. First thing that comes to my mind is you(E-balla) may be underestimating the scoring improvements Kawhi has made, and maybe also underestimating how much that improves his ability to carry an offense(floor raising), but you’ve provided quite a bit of good evidence to support your point, and I can’t (in good faith) try to counter those points while I’m here at work.

[E-Balla]

I might be misreading him, but i don’t think he’s saying that Derozan is better than Kawhi. I think he’s more just using Kawhi replacing Derozan(noting the fact that it lowered their ceiling, but raised raised their floor) as an argument for why 2016 Kawhi is better than 2019 Kawhi.

He knows that, he's just not attempting to address my point nor was he ever addressing my point.

I don’t think I agree with the conclusion, but I need to look into it more when I get home. First thing that comes to my mind is you(E-balla) may be underestimating the scoring improvements Kawhi has made, and maybe also underestimating how much that improves his ability to carry an offense(floor raising), but you’ve provided quite a bit of good evidence to support your point, and I can’t (in good faith) try to counter those points while I’m here at work.

I asked for what he improved in previously and was told PNR ball handling and his handles which improved his isolation skills. I already posted his PPP in PNR ball handling and isolation from 2016 to now and his volume is up considerably, but his efficiency is also down because in 2016 Kawhi was basically in the 90th percentile or higher across the board offensively. Both regular and post season. I get that you think he improved but he was always just as effective, just doing those things less in Pop's system. And it makes sense, PNR ball handling and isolation aren't the most efficient plays all the time and they're long developing. While running the Spurs system correctly you don't have a lot of time to do either of those things since the ball is always supposed to be moving, it's also why Tony Parker saw a drop in production around 2011ish (iirc) when they first started running the system.

Now the natural counter to that, which we've seen multiple times in this discussion already, is that if Kawhi could do those things in 2016 as well as in 2017 and 2019 he'd do them more, but my counter to that is that the team suffered with his increased usage and Pop is a great enough coach to know you can have too much of a good thing on the basketball court as long as we're talking about single players. Dennis Rodman got too many rebounds. Hell many think Moses did too. Wilt scored too many points. Rondo gets too many assists. Kawhi had too many isolations in 2017 and especially 2019. I think next year we'll see but the Raptors outside of Kawhi are still a very great team. If they still had Danny I'd put them 2nd in the conference headed into the season.

[cecilthesheep]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Ewing, CP3, and yes, Karl Malone

[E-Balla]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Wade, Ewing, and yes, Karl Malone

Either Wade is in or I have the memory of an elephant.

And I get that's not an extensive list but Chris Paul is a glaring omission, any reason he's not up next with those other guys?

[cecilthesheep]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Wade, Ewing, and yes, Karl Malone

Either Wade is in or I have the memory of an elephant.

And I get that's not an extensive list but Chris Paul is a glaring omission, any reason he's not up next with those other guys?

My bad, I don't know why I typed Wade lol.

I'm kind of down on Chris Paul. He's right on the edge of that tier for me. I'll put him in though, he does deserve a mention

[70sFan]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Wade, Ewing, and yes, Karl Malone

That couldn't be further from the truth:

Watch on YouTube

0:03 High Post Scoring
8:34 Right Block Scoring
15:14 Left Block Scoring

His iso game was extremely good for a center. He could beat you off the dribble, he could shoot from midrange, he could make simple dribble moves, he had outstanding footwork in the post, he had quick first step and his fadeaway was just as deadly as Hakeem's, Not to mention his agressive inside game.

That's what I don't get about Moses - everybody simply assume that he was very good garbage points player. He was much more than that, he was basically an iso scorer like Hakeem but without Olajuwon passing skills and with better off-ball game due to offensive rebounds and more strength.

[E-Balla]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Wade, Ewing, and yes, Karl Malone

That couldn't be further from the truth:

Watch on YouTube

0:03 High Post Scoring
8:34 Right Block Scoring
15:14 Left Block Scoring

His iso game was extremely good for a center. He could beat you off the dribble, he could shoot from midrange, he could make simple dribble moves, he had outstanding footwork in the post, he had quick first step and his fadeaway was just as deadly as Hakeem's, Not to mention his agressive inside game.

That's what I don't get about Moses - everybody simply assume that he was very good garbage points player. He was much more than that, he was basically an iso scorer like Hakeem but without Olajuwon passing skills and with better off-ball game due to offensive rebounds and more strength.

Yep I mentioned this in my first post about him. Also he's not just an iso scorer like Hakeem, he's the iso scorer that mentored Hakeem. Before Hakeem ever took a single step onto a court for a team on any level (he never played organized basketball before going to Houston) he was working with Moses during his redshirt season. Hakeem openly credits Moses with helping him develop.

“I would never have accomplished what I did if I did not play against Moses at Fonde,” Olajuwon said before his own Hall of Fame induction in 2008. “I knew the rules. I knew the basics of the game and what you were supposed to do. But he is the one that taught me how to do it.

With Moses there were no rests, no breaks. He was working every time down the court — scoring, rebounding or just making you feel his body. He would laugh when he slammed into you. If you tried to take a breath, he went by you or over you. There was no stop…."

“I usually couldn’t go through Moses, because he was just so strong,” Olajuwon said. “So I had to learn to use speed and agility to go around him. That’s how I built my game.”

SIDEBAR: It's crazy to me that Fonde was a regular ass community center and you could go there any week any summer and see 2 future NBA HOF Cs battling each other constantly, up until 82 when Moses was traded along with Clyde.

He also mentored Chuck who famously said on TV after his death that he called Moses dad.

[cecilthesheep]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Wade, Ewing, and yes, Karl Malone

That couldn't be further from the truth:

Watch on YouTube

0:03 High Post Scoring
8:34 Right Block Scoring
15:14 Left Block Scoring

His iso game was extremely good for a center. He could beat you off the dribble, he could shoot from midrange, he could make simple dribble moves, he had outstanding footwork in the post, he had quick first step and his fadeaway was just as deadly as Hakeem's, Not to mention his agressive inside game.

That's what I don't get about Moses - everybody simply assume that he was very good garbage points player. He was much more than that, he was basically an iso scorer like Hakeem but without Olajuwon passing skills and with better off-ball game due to offensive rebounds and more strength.

I guess you're right. When I said peers I was thinking like Kareem, Bill Walton, Artis Gilmore. But I was probably underrating Malone a little bit even relative to them.

[70sFan]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 1983 Moses Malone - Okay, I've been convinced. Best offensive rebounder of his era and possibly ever. Somehow scored 25-30 ppg consistently without much of an iso game compared to his peers. All his advanced stats peak in '83, plus he won MVP, first team all defense, and Finals MVP. Seems like the strongest clear choice remaining to me. I could maybe be convinced otherwise because of his underwhelming impact stats, but this is what I'm going with for now.

Next tier I'm thinking about: Nash, Barkley, Wade, Ewing, and yes, Karl Malone

That couldn't be further from the truth:

Watch on YouTube

0:03 High Post Scoring
8:34 Right Block Scoring
15:14 Left Block Scoring

His iso game was extremely good for a center. He could beat you off the dribble, he could shoot from midrange, he could make simple dribble moves, he had outstanding footwork in the post, he had quick first step and his fadeaway was just as deadly as Hakeem's, Not to mention his agressive inside game.

That's what I don't get about Moses - everybody simply assume that he was very good garbage points player. He was much more than that, he was basically an iso scorer like Hakeem but without Olajuwon passing skills and with better off-ball game due to offensive rebounds and more strength.

I guess you're right. When I said peers I was thinking like Kareem, Bill Walton, Artis Gilmore. But I was probably underrating Malone a little bit even relative to them.

Yeah, he was definitely better iso scorer than Walton. Without any doubts, even though Bill could also score one on one.

[euroleague]

For the era, the TS is hardly bad -

League average was 52.4 TS%. The Spurs allowed a 48.2 TS%. Malone had a 46.3 TS%. Bad by all standards.
League average ORTG was a 105. The Spurs had a 99 DRTG. Malone had a 94 ORTG. Bad by all standards.

I'm not saying he was bad overall, but worse than Duncan?

And that was skewed by one awful game and one not so good one. He carried the offense with solid scoring in most of their wins, and generated far more offense than Duncan throughout the series.

He shot under 40% in 3 of the 5 games. He had under a 50 TS% in 4 of the 5 games. His average TS% was 46.3 and he was under that 3 times and over it twice in that series. I haven't rewatched the series but Malone was only +3 overall in the series despite winning it 4-1.

The Jazz did a gentleman’s sweep of the Duncan/DRob team that won the next year. Duncan certainly had more talent around him - DRob was still in his prime, and indisputably the GOAT 2nd option if he were considered as such

How do you even have a "gentleman's sweep" in a regular season series during a 50 game season? This was a very flowery way of saying they went 2-1 against the Spurs in the 1999 regular season. Plus it's wrong, the Jazz won the first game in 99 and San Antonio won the next 2 so they actually went 1-2.

In 98 and 99 the team was the same. They won 4-1, a gentleman’s sweep, in 98....

Individual ORTG is perhaps the worst way of measuring offense. Unless you consider Kevin love, Reggie Miller, Kukoc, and Dennis Rodman better than LBJ and MJ...

Game 1: 25/8/4 on 49.8% TS, well above average against the spurs, with great playmaking and defense
Game 4: dominated with 34/12/4 and 60.7% TS against both DRob and Duncan
Game 5: 24/13/3 on 44% TS - while not efficiently scoring, he anchored the defense and offensive rebounding, with a game best +10 to clinch the series

Malone carried almost the entire offense against a defensive frontline that beat down peak Shaq. His impact in volume, playmaking, rebounding, and defense was very solid despite a relatively poor scoring series. A dominating performance against the best defensive frontline of all time, despite lower than average efficiency, still is a solid accomplishment worth ranking at this point.

[Morb]

1. T-Mac 2003 - GOAT Offensive Game, best OBPM in 25 years (from 1990 to 2015), lifted Orlando ORtg from 91.8 to 109.3 (+8% eFG), great body, versality, handles, underrated passer, low tovs, good series vs DRtg 99.9 (-3.7).
2. McAdoo 1975 - Scoring Machine, shooting 6'10, rebounds, historically great series vs DRtg 91.3 (-6.4). Wow.
3. Chris Paul 2008 - Top 3 PG Peak, assists, tempo, quickness, low tows, great playoffs.
http://bkref.com/tiny/Es4q0

[E-Balla]

For the era, the TS is hardly bad -

League average was 52.4 TS%. The Spurs allowed a 48.2 TS%. Malone had a 46.3 TS%. Bad by all standards.
League average ORTG was a 105. The Spurs had a 99 DRTG. Malone had a 94 ORTG. Bad by all standards.

I'm not saying he was bad overall, but worse than Duncan?

And that was skewed by one awful game and one not so good one. He carried the offense with solid scoring in most of their wins, and generated far more offense than Duncan throughout the series.

He shot under 40% in 3 of the 5 games. He had under a 50 TS% in 4 of the 5 games. His average TS% was 46.3 and he was under that 3 times and over it twice in that series. I haven't rewatched the series but Malone was only +3 overall in the series despite winning it 4-1.

The Jazz did a gentleman’s sweep of the Duncan/DRob team that won the next year. Duncan certainly had more talent around him - DRob was still in his prime, and indisputably the GOAT 2nd option if he were considered as such

How do you even have a "gentleman's sweep" in a regular season series during a 50 game season? This was a very flowery way of saying they went 2-1 against the Spurs in the 1999 regular season. Plus it's wrong, the Jazz won the first game in 99 and San Antonio won the next 2 so they actually went 1-2.

In 98 and 99 the team was the same. They won 4-1, a gentleman’s sweep, in 98....

Oh my bad I misread your post. Still I'm lost. We're pretending rookie Duncan and sophomore Duncan are the same?

Individual ORTG is perhaps the worst way of measuring offense. Unless you consider Kevin love, Reggie Miller, Kukoc, and Dennis Rodman better than LBJ and MJ...

It's a measurement of efficiency like TS% or TOV%.

Game 1: 25/8/4 on 49.8% TS, well above average against the spurs, with great playmaking and defense
Game 4: dominated with 34/12/4 and 60.7% TS against both DRob and Duncan
Game 5: 24/13/3 on 44% TS - while not efficiently scoring, he anchored the defense and offensive rebounding, with a game best +10 to clinch the series

Malone carried almost the entire offense against a defensive frontline that beat down peak Shaq. His impact in volume, playmaking, rebounding, and defense was very solid despite a relatively poor scoring series. A dominating performance against the best defensive frontline of all time, despite lower than average efficiency, still is a solid accomplishment worth ranking at this point.

You have to realize it's considerably worse than tons of others still on the board right? A plethora of guys have had more impressive seasons even in those years. I'd take Grant Hill, Penny, and Zo over Karl.

[euroleague]

League average was 52.4 TS%. The Spurs allowed a 48.2 TS%. Malone had a 46.3 TS%. Bad by all standards.
League average ORTG was a 105. The Spurs had a 99 DRTG. Malone had a 94 ORTG. Bad by all standards.

I'm not saying he was bad overall, but worse than Duncan?


He shot under 40% in 3 of the 5 games. He had under a 50 TS% in 4 of the 5 games. His average TS% was 46.3 and he was under that 3 times and over it twice in that series. I haven't rewatched the series but Malone was only +3 overall in the series despite winning it 4-1.


How do you even have a "gentleman's sweep" in a regular season series during a 50 game season? This was a very flowery way of saying they went 2-1 against the Spurs in the 1999 regular season. Plus it's wrong, the Jazz won the first game in 99 and San Antonio won the next 2 so they actually went 1-2.

In 98 and 99 the team was the same. They won 4-1, a gentleman’s sweep, in 98....

Oh my bad I misread your post. Still I'm lost. We're pretending rookie Duncan and sophomore Duncan are the same?

Individual ORTG is perhaps the worst way of measuring offense. Unless you consider Kevin love, Reggie Miller, Kukoc, and Dennis Rodman better than LBJ and MJ...

It's a measurement of efficiency like TS% or TOV%.

Game 1: 25/8/4 on 49.8% TS, well above average against the spurs, with great playmaking and defense
Game 4: dominated with 34/12/4 and 60.7% TS against both DRob and Duncan
Game 5: 24/13/3 on 44% TS - while not efficiently scoring, he anchored the defense and offensive rebounding, with a game best +10 to clinch the series

Malone carried almost the entire offense against a defensive frontline that beat down peak Shaq. His impact in volume, playmaking, rebounding, and defense was very solid despite a relatively poor scoring series. A dominating performance against the best defensive frontline of all time, despite lower than average efficiency, still is a solid accomplishment worth ranking at this point.

You have to realize it's considerably worse than tons of others still on the board right? A plethora of guys have had more impressive seasons even in those years. I'd take Grant Hill, Penny, and Zo over Karl.

That individual series was not his best - but a large part is the defense he faced. Mourning would be shut down against Duncan/DRob far worse.

Malone’s stats don’t look amazing in the postseason because of the gauntlet of defenders he went against, but his play and regular season were far superior to the players mentioned and it’s not that close. I’m high on Penny, but his volume was limited by jealousy issues with Shaq, and he never became a superstar.

Closer players are Barkley, TMAC, KD - but they all have flaws in their game that affect their teamwide impact despite being great iso players (defense in Barkley’s case). Barkley will probably be on my next list. Pettit has the era differences held against him.

For a PF, Malone’s run in 98 was incredible. He was guarding elite Centers, stretching the floor, and playmaking from the high post. I rank all of what he brings around this spot, although most voters certainly value his longevity over his peak.

[E-Balla]

In 98 and 99 the team was the same. They won 4-1, a gentleman’s sweep, in 98....

Oh my bad I misread your post. Still I'm lost. We're pretending rookie Duncan and sophomore Duncan are the same?

Individual ORTG is perhaps the worst way of measuring offense. Unless you consider Kevin love, Reggie Miller, Kukoc, and Dennis Rodman better than LBJ and MJ...

It's a measurement of efficiency like TS% or TOV%.

Game 1: 25/8/4 on 49.8% TS, well above average against the spurs, with great playmaking and defense
Game 4: dominated with 34/12/4 and 60.7% TS against both DRob and Duncan
Game 5: 24/13/3 on 44% TS - while not efficiently scoring, he anchored the defense and offensive rebounding, with a game best +10 to clinch the series

Malone carried almost the entire offense against a defensive frontline that beat down peak Shaq. His impact in volume, playmaking, rebounding, and defense was very solid despite a relatively poor scoring series. A dominating performance against the best defensive frontline of all time, despite lower than average efficiency, still is a solid accomplishment worth ranking at this point.

You have to realize it's considerably worse than tons of others still on the board right? A plethora of guys have had more impressive seasons even in those years. I'd take Grant Hill, Penny, and Zo over Karl.

That individual series was not his best - but a large part is the defense he faced. Mourning would be shut down against Duncan/DRob far worse.

Umm... Ewing, Mason, and Oakley?

Zo was playing the Knicks and Bulls defenses in the playoffs every year. And performed.

Malone’s stats don’t look amazing in the postseason because of the gauntlet of defenders he went against, but his play and regular season were far superior to the players mentioned and it’s not that close. I’m high on Penny, but his volume was limited by jealousy issues with Shaq, and he never became a superstar.

He played some great defenses commonly but his performance against good defenses in general wasn't strong.

From 70sFan:

Karl Malone (1989-01):

RS: 37.9 mpg, 10.4 rpg, 3.7 apg, 3.0 tov, 26.9 ppg on 52.6% FG, 75.9% FT and 59.1% TS (+5.98% rTS)
Against Bad Defenses (3.50% of playoffs games): 39.8 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 1.6 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 46.1% FG, 83.0% FT and 54.2% TS (+1.81% rTS)
Against Average Defenses (33.57% of playoffs games): 41.0 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.0 tov, 28.6 ppg on 47.9% FG, 78.9% FT, 55.5% TS (+2.58% rTS)
Against Good Defenses (21.68% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 11.5 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.9 tov, 26.5 ppg on 43.7% FG, 80.5% FT and 52.5% TS (-0.79 rTS%)
Against Elite Defenses (41.26% of playoffs games): 41.7 mpg, 11.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.7 tov, 25.4 ppg on 46.8% FG, 67.0% FT and 51.5% TS (-1.56% rTS)

To compare to Barkley, who you mention here:

Charles Barkley (1987-96):

RS: 38.0 mpg, 11.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 3.3 tov, 24.7 ppg on 54.8% FG, 27.1% 3FG, 74.3% FT and 62.2% TS (+8.52% rTS)
Against Bad Defenses (0.00% of playoffs games): --
Against Average Defenses (58.11% of playoffs games): 41.9 mpg, 13.6 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.7 tov, 26.2 ppg on 50.8% FG, 27.2% 3FG, 69.2% FT, 57.1% TS (+3.45% rTS)
Against Good Defenses (27.03% of playoffs games): 41.6 mpg, 12.6 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.8 tov, 26.6 ppg on 56.2% FG, 17.0% 3FG 76.6% FT and 63.1% TS (+9.37% rTS)
Against Elite Defenses (14.86% of playoffs games): 42.2 mpg, 13.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.3 tov, 24.2 ppg on 45.3% FG, 29.6% 3FG, 79.8% FT and 54.3% TS (+1.03% rTS)

As far as Penny goes he was 3rd in MVP voting to Jordan and Robinson at his best, I think he was undeniably a superstar. Not for long, but Penny is one of the most recognizable players of the era and at his peak was just as good as anyone not named Jordan, O'Neal, or Olajuwon.

Closer players are Barkley, TMAC, KD - but they all have flaws in their game that affect their teamwide impact despite being great iso players (defense in Barkley’s case). Barkley will probably be on my next list. Pettit has the era differences held against him.

For a PF, Malone’s run in 98 was incredible. He was guarding elite Centers, stretching the floor, and playmaking from the high post. I rank all of what he brings around this spot, although most voters certainly value his longevity over his peak.

Karl is great but his postseason play just isn't up to par compared to everyone else mentioned.

Zo, Penny, and Hill have all had top 3 MVP finishes along with Karl and of the 3 Zo and Penny have more playoff success and better +/- metrics. Hill doesn't, but it at least on the same level as Karl as a postseason performer based on the 3 series we saw from him in Detroit.

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 90 Ewing
Ballot #2 - 93 Barkley
Ballot #3 - 03 McGrady

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Ballot #1 - 90 Ewing

Lending some support for Ewing here. Being at his peak athletically in 1990, Ewing was a workhorse on both ends of the floor. His combination of volume scoring on great efficiency and ability to anchor a defense should be worthy of this range. Led the 13th ranked SRS knicks to a 1st round upset of the 8th ranked SRS celtics in the first round. Would end up being eliminated by the eventual champion pistons, put still put up a valiant effort in the series, with 27.2 PPG. 9.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.2 BPG on 56% TS. Pistons also ranked 2nd in defense that season. If only Riley got his hands on Ewing a few years earlier...

Ballot #2 - 93 Barkley

Totally see a case for 90 being his peak, but I like Barkley’s more refined game in PHX where he was still an excellent athlete (and in amazing shape), but was a little less reckless. Of course he had more talent around him, but I think that slightly toned down version helped them get as far as they did in the postseason. I’m not quite sure 90 barkley gets them there.

93 WCF game 7 against the sonics - 44 PTS / 22 REB / 1 AST / 1 STL / 1 BLK / 74.1% TS / 167 ORTG

Watch on YouTube

Ballot #3 - 03 McGrady

Have to say... looking at 03 McGrady vs. 09 Kobe vs. 2014 Durant comes off as close of a comparison as we've had in the project thus far. I see a good case for all 3, and I decided to go with the 09 Wade thinking here in picking McGrady. He carried a weak supporting cast on his back for an entire season, putting up very impressive individual #s in the process.

His 3 best teammates were arguably pat garrity, 34 yr old darrell armstrong, and mike miller for 49 games. Grant hill also appeared in 29 games, but didn't play in the playoffs, and miller was traded for drew gooden midway thru the season. McGrady's on/off that season was a pretty staggering +13. McGrady then nearly led the magic to a major upset of the 5th ranked SRS pistons, eventually going down in 7 games. I just like his overall package that he brought to the table slightly more than Kobe and Durant that season.

[Odinn21]

Ballot #1 - 90 Ewing
Ballot #2 - 93 Barkley
Ballot #3 - 03 McGrady

I find it interesting that you’d vote Ewing over Moses.

[DatAsh]

Same vote as last time

Looking at Ewing's career in more detail now, I'm switching to an earlier peak(1990). I had 93 mixed up with 94 in my mind, but after putting more thought and research into it, I think I've got to go with 1990. I think the Knick's improvement can be reasonably attributed to the additions of Pat Riley, Xavier McDaniel, Anthony and others, as well as general improvement of other players.

I could see Ewing as a +1-2 offense, +4-5 defense player

Still have to go with Paul overall though, as his defense at the PG position is matched or exceeded by only a few others(imo), and none of them were close to the offensive players he was. I don't quite rate his defense as highly as his 4 year RAPM(+3.3), but I would probably put in the +2ish range. He's incredibly strong for a PG, and some of the best defensive instincts ever, but he's limited by his small size. Offense is probably in the +5-6 range; maybe a little less than Curry/Nash. Curry's offense also seems more portable, though perhaps a little less durable, but he's already in. I would say Nash is comfortably the better offensive player, but I just don't think he can make up that +3 gap that Paul has on defense.

Barkley is interesting for me. I kinda see him in that GOAT offense tier with Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Nash, ect, and if not, he's not very far behind at all. Obviously his defense is levels below Jordan and Lebron, but they went 1 and 2, and Magic has been in for awhile. How does Barkley's defense compare to Nash's? Also it feels weird ranking Ewing ahead of Barkley, as Barkley was definitely seen as the better player at the time.

So for now,

1. 2015 Paul
2. 1990 Ewing
3. 1993 Ewing

I enjoyed reading the Kawhi discussion, although it did get a bit personal and sarcastic at times, which I'm not a huge fan of. Still there was lots of good data presented which made me think. I'm not really ready to vote for Kawhi yet, but I'll try to add to the discussion. I'm really interested in the Kawhi vs KD debate. Very similar as defenders, KD is the better playmaker, but Kawhi has arguably become the better postseason scorer(which is insane).

Working on another post for that, but just want to get my vote in for now, since it doesn't involve Kawhi.

[Mavericksfan]

Moses Malone 1983-
E-Balla has successfully converted another one. Very dominant player both on and off ball. Also was a good defender at his peak. His regular season motor is the only question but they were still a top team. He absolutely dominated the playoffs and led the Sixers to one of the top playoff runs in NBA history.

Patrick Ewing 1990-
Great two play player. Another player that I opened my eyes to after the D-Rob vs Ewing discussions. More of a floor raiser but also had a steller playoff performance despite not much talent around him.

Steve Nash 2006-
One of the greatest offensive playes ever. Carried the Suns to the 2nd best offense despite missing his second offensive star. Had a steller playoff run as well including posting 20/10 on 50/40/90 against the Mavs and their top 5 defense.