Thunder Offseason Thread Part Deux: Rebuild

Post #581 » by **slick_watts** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 12:17 am

i like shai's comments.

cjmcallist · Post #582 » by **cjmcallist** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 4:30 pm

jambalaya wrote:Personally, I don't think Spurs, Kings, NOLA or Dallas bid, except perhaps for offering a lot of junk. Denver, might if they play him at 3 and play less of their existing perimeter set which they seem to love (too much). Don't see Milwaukee bidding.

What do people think of trading Paul, Roberson, Gallinari for Dragic, Waiters, Johnson, Olynyk and Leonard and perhaps some draft consideration (about $70 mil in salary both ways)? Or even add more players like Noel and Ferguson (etc.) for other young players and / or picks. Really renew. Mainly about getting out of Paul contract.

I don't feel so strongly that we need to get out of the Paul contract. As a fan, the waiting game is tough, but I'd rather trade Gallo for a FRP. Even like a late 2020 FRP (POR, MIA, SAS, BOS, etc.). Which I think is reasonable, if he stays healthy.

To me, (Paul + late FRP) > ($2m in 2020 cap space)

Kizz Fastfists · Post #583 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 5:43 pm

cjmcallist wrote:I don't feel so strongly that we need to get out of the Paul contract. As a fan, the waiting game is tough, but I'd rather trade Gallo for a FRP. Even like a late 2020 FRP (POR, MIA, SAS, BOS, etc.). Which I think is reasonable, if he stays healthy.

To me, (Paul + late FRP) > ($2m in 2020 cap space)

The problem is that people seem to be ignoring the fact that if CP3 had been a FA he would have gotten a max contract. There is a difference between just giving someone a contract and giving up assets as well. That is the argument against CP3 getting a significant return. However, based on production, he is still a max player when you compare him to other max PGs. The myth is that he will suddenly decline and no longer be anywhere near a max player in two years is just that. His skill set is one that ages well, as we have seen to this point. Unlike some other players, i.e. Russ, who dropped off a cliff last year to the point that without PG he couldn't carry a lineup to a plus net rating. That had never been the case with Russ in the past. He didn't need Dipo or kd to lead a lineup to a positive net rating, but his inefficiency from physical decline destroyed his ability to lead a unit.

CP3 put up great numbers when Harden was out and Houston had a significantly better winning percentage when CP3 played then when he sat. It won't take long for a GM to offer positive value for him. OKC doesn't need much value just a first round pick and/or decent prospect would be enough since getting him off the roster increases the value of OKC's own pick significantly while allowing SGA to work as the primary PG. Then again, it is possible that Presti sees SGA in more of a Harden role as a PG skill set playing SG due to his size and defensive abilities. If that is the case I won't have a problem with it as long as SGA is starting and not stuck in the 6th man role AND the starting PG can shoot and function off the ball. If Presti uses a top 10 pick on an athletic PG that can't shoot I will be very upset.

jake_swivel · Post #584 » by **jake_swivel** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:30 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
cjmcallist wrote:I don't feel so strongly that we need to get out of the Paul contract. As a fan, the waiting game is tough, but I'd rather trade Gallo for a FRP. Even like a late 2020 FRP (POR, MIA, SAS, BOS, etc.). Which I think is reasonable, if he stays healthy.

To me, (Paul + late FRP) > ($2m in 2020 cap space)

The problem is that people seem to be ignoring the fact that if CP3 had been a FA he would have gotten a max contract.

If by “people”, you mean “everyone on earth but kizz fastfists”, you’re right.

Post #585 » by **ThunderBolt** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:52 pm

Read on Twitter

Kizz Fastfists · Post #586 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:54 pm

jake_swivel wrote:If by “people”, you mean “everyone on earth but kizz fastfists”, you’re right.

He would have gotten a 2-3 year max if he had been a FA this off-season, although it most likely would have been 2yrs with a team option for the 3rd. D'Angello Russell, who is an inferior player got a 4 year max. Don't claim health as the reason since Russell only played in 48 games in '17-18 and over the last four years has only played in 20 more games than CP3.

There is no way CP3 wouldn't have gotten a max as a FA. He wouldn't have gotten a 4 year max, but since he isn't on a 4 year max, only 3 years, at this point that is a moot point. Once the season starts the teams that want/need to win now won't be worrying about that 3rd year on his contract. They'll worry about that in the future to accumulate wins now. Because if you don't win now you end up out of a job now and GMs will always pick the temporary job saving move over the long-term health of an organization that will benefit the next guy more than them.

Guys with high job security don't have to do that, although they often do it anyway as we have seen with Presti and Pat Riley the last few years. Even NOLA is afraid to commit to a real rebuild like they should and is trying to patch around Jrue, Zion and the former Lakers.

Post #587 » by **Dadouv47** » Wed Sep 4, 2019 8:18 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
jake_swivel wrote:If by “people”, you mean “everyone on earth but kizz fastfists”, you’re right.

He would have gotten a 2-3 year max if he had been a FA this off-season, although it most likely would have been 2yrs with a team option for the 3rd. D'Angello Russell, who is an inferior player got a 4 year max. Don't claim health as the reason since Russell only played in 48 games in '17-18 and over the last four years has only played in 20 more games than CP3.

There is no way CP3 wouldn't have gotten a max as a FA. He wouldn't have gotten a 4 year max, but since he isn't on a 4 year max, only 3 years, at this point that is a moot point. Once the season starts the teams that want/need to win now won't be worrying about that 3rd year on his contract. They'll worry about that in the future to accumulate wins now. Because if you don't win now you end up out of a job now and GMs will always pick the temporary job saving move over the long-term health of an organization that will benefit the next guy more than them.

Guys with high job security don't have to do that, although they often do it anyway as we have seen with Presti and Pat Riley the last few years. Even NOLA is afraid to commit to a real rebuild like they should and is trying to patch around Jrue, Zion and the former Lakers.

Easier to take a shortcut on the rebuild when you get Zion (even if they didn't want to make a full rebuild in the first place).

Presti will not lose his job during a rebuild. He's known for being great at drafting/making some moves.

Don't think we are planning to make a long rebuild like the Sixers but we won't make such a big shortcut.3 years sounds good if we develop SGA well enough and are able to draft 1 or 2 good players

Post #588 » by **Andre Roberstan** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:40 am

I do wonder if rebuilds might become shorter than they've been in the past because of increased player movement.

Kizz Fastfists · Post #589 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 5:06 am

Andre Roberstan wrote:I do wonder if rebuilds might become shorter than they've been in the past because of increased player movement.

They will always be dependent on drafting. If you get the right pick at the right time and draft the right player you have a 3-4 year rebuild until you are back in the playoffs on your way to being a contender. If you draft poorly you are stuck in the lottery for a decade or longer. If you can't draft and develop you aren't rebuild you are just stuck at the bottom.

Post #590 » by **Andre Roberstan** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 5:57 am

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
Andre Roberstan wrote:I do wonder if rebuilds might become shorter than they've been in the past because of increased player movement.

They will always be dependent on drafting. If you get the right pick at the right time and draft the right player you have a 3-4 year rebuild until you are back in the playoffs on your way to being a contender. If you draft poorly you are stuck in the lottery for a decade or longer. If you can't draft and develop you aren't rebuild you are just stuck at the bottom.

I thought drafting and developing badly was better. More fool me

Post #591 » by **ThunderBolt** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 10:57 am

Andre Roberstan wrote:I do wonder if rebuilds might become shorter than they've been in the past because of increased player movement.

I tend to agree. Especially for us since already have a key piece with shai. If we can hit on a high pick with our own pick, we could use some of our own assets to acquire a third guy that a team is willing to move. If we hit early on n a pick or get surprise development from Ferguson, Bazley or Diallo we will be in a very enviable position.

Kizz Fastfists · Post #592 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:08 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:I tend to agree. Especially for us since already have a key piece with shai. If we can hit on a high pick with our own pick, we could use some of our own assets to acquire a third guy that a team is willing to move. If we hit early on n a pick or get surprise development from Ferguson, Bazley or Diallo we will be in a very enviable position.

We are still at step 0. Step 1 is to find a competent coach to develop the players. Presti did a great job acquiring assets, but he better be looking into coaches.

Post #593 » by **ThunderBolt** » Thu Sep 5, 2019 3:43 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:I tend to agree. Especially for us since already have a key piece with shai. If we can hit on a high pick with our own pick, we could use some of our own assets to acquire a third guy that a team is willing to move. If we hit early on n a pick or get surprise development from Ferguson, Bazley or Diallo we will be in a very enviable position.

We are still at step 0. Step 1 is to find a competent coach to develop the players. Presti did a great job acquiring assets, but he better be looking into coaches.

If you get too good of a coach too soon then it makes it hard to tank. That happened to Boston several years with Stevens.

Post #594 » by **ThunderBolt** » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:29 pm

I really hope Durant gets the mental help he needs. Such a shame to have that much talent and success and still comes across as one of the most miserable persons alive.

spearsy23 · Post #595 » by **spearsy23** » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:13 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:I really hope Durant gets the mental help he needs. Such a shame to have that much talent and success and still comes across as one of the most miserable persons alive.

How dare you, we only question Russell Westbrook's mental health around here, anything else is tactless.

Also, at this point it's just like, keep my name out ya mouth.

Post #596 » by **ThunderBolt** » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:34 pm

spearsy23 wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:I really hope Durant gets the mental help he needs. Such a shame to have that much talent and success and still comes across as one of the most miserable persons alive.

How dare you, we only question Russell Westbrook's mental health around here, anything else is tactless.

Also, at this point it's just like, keep my name out ya mouth.

My concern is sincere. Tactless would be me saying I don't care if he fully recovers from his achilles tear, which may or may not be true.

jambalaya · Post #597 » by **jambalaya** » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:11 pm

In 2-3 years, probably only 4-5 of the current players are still on the team. I don't think it is likely that any of the other current young players are a future star. Maybe not even good role player. I'd have more hope for Dort than Ferguson, Bazely or Diallo.

Old Man Game · Post #598 » by **Old Man Game** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:11 am

ThunderBolt wrote:I really hope Durant gets the mental help he needs. Such a shame to have that much talent and success and still comes across as one of the most miserable persons alive.

I take no joy in saying this and I'm not trying to be a troll, but honestly after his career is done I could see him harming himself. He seems like he needs the adoration and constant affirmation of playing just to get through his days. When anything goes off it just throws him into a complete fit.

Sent from my Pixel using RealGM mobile app

Post #599 » by **ThunderBolt** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:52 am

Old Man Game wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:I really hope Durant gets the mental help he needs. Such a shame to have that much talent and success and still comes across as one of the most miserable persons alive.
I take no joy in saying this and I'm not trying to be a troll, but honestly after his career is done I could see him harming himself. He seems like he needs the adoration and constant affirmation of playing just to get through his days. When anything goes off it just throws him into a complete fit.

Sent from my Pixel using RealGM mobile app

I truly can’t think of any other star in any sport that reminds me of him. It’s like he’s a cross between a bitter Kareem, random diva wide receiver and crying on the bench big baby Glen Davis.

Old Man Game · Post #600 » by **Old Man Game** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:40 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
Old Man Game wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:I really hope Durant gets the mental help he needs. Such a shame to have that much talent and success and still comes across as one of the most miserable persons alive.
I take no joy in saying this and I'm not trying to be a troll, but honestly after his career is done I could see him harming himself. He seems like he needs the adoration and constant affirmation of playing just to get through his days. When anything goes off it just throws him into a complete fit.

Sent from my Pixel using RealGM mobile app

I truly can’t think of any other star in any sport that reminds me of him. It’s like he’s a cross between a bitter Kareem, random diva wide receiver and crying on the bench big baby Glen Davis.

It reminds me of Trump a bit. Just in terms of every slight being remembered forever and being pretty petty about his reactions to said perceived slight.