Kyle Lowry's prime vs. Isiah Thomas' prime (Zeke not the Leprechaun)

[XxIronChainzxX]

you can't rely on comparing stats between players from 2 different eras

Isiah has a case in any discussion for best PG's of all time... Lowry not so much

lol I get your point but thats such an exaggeration. Its like saying Clyde is in the discussion for best SG of all time, just no.

Are you joking? Clyde Drexler is one of the greatest SGs of all time.

[Johnny Bball]

It's entirely the meltdown early in the playoffs. And I don't mean his - I mean the team. DD escaped criticism and got credit.

LOL!

While on this forum the reaction was mixed, I think in general media circles Lowry drew more ire than DD. I take it you disagree.

Well yeah because that wasn't the way it went. It wasn't mixed here. It was and is really one sided. Outside... it was still more Derozan the last 2 years since he became the number 1 option over Lowry.

DD was pretty much crucified here while Lowry was let off by the majority pretty often (injuries etc.). I mean... people still think the name jokes are funny (and god knows they never were) and people still bring him up constantly after over a year. It's just so weak. And we were never beating Cleveland no matter what the entitled young fans thought.

Both were criticized by the rest of the world pretty severely. And pretty wrongly. Even the general media doesn't understand how tough it is being the first option in the later rounds, We tried both players. Both couldn't be it. It doesn't mean they suck, it means they aren't James or Leonard etc.

I'm pretty done with the pettiness of all of it. Thankfully Lowry won so the talking heads of the world that don't know jack will shut up about something they seemingly and amazingly know less than they should know.

[XxIronChainzxX]

LOL!

While on this forum the reaction was mixed, I think in general media circles Lowry drew more ire than DD. I take it you disagree.

Well yeah because that wasn't the way it went. It wasn't mixed here. It was and is really one sided. Outside... it was still more Derozan the last 2 years since he became the number 1 option over Lowry.

DD was pretty much crucified here while Lowry was let off by the majority pretty often (injuries etc.). I mean... people still think the name jokes are funny (and god knows they never were) and people still bring him up constantly after over a year. It's just so weak. And we were never beating Cleveland no matter what the entitled young fans thought.

Both were criticized by the rest of the world pretty severely. And pretty wrongly. Even the general media doesn't understand how tough it is being the first option in the later rounds, We tried both players. Both couldn't be it. It doesn't mean they suck, it means they aren't James or Leonard etc.

I'm pretty done with the pettiness of all of it. Thankfully Lowry won so the talking heads of the world that don't know jack will shut up about something they seemingly and amazingly know less than they should know.

People voted to retire DDs number. I think if you polled this forum his popularity would always be quite high. It wasn't unanimous and there were vocal detractors, but I disagree that DD was crucified - except for the last run against Cleveland. That wasn't fair to him despite the horrid numbers.

I don't disagree with you on the expectation, but it's also the meltdown versus the Wizards with HCA. It's not that we lost, but how we lost.

[mrsocko]

That leprechaun is probably taller than most posters on realgm.

Doubt it. Average RealGM poster is 6-foot-3 chiseled.

That’s like looking in a mirror.

Lowry’s peak might be close to Zeke’s but he started slow so won’t ave the career totals Zeke had.

[Danny1616]

As much as I love Lowry, Isiah is in a different league. I wonder how many of you have actually seen IT play. Numbers might be similar but it was a completely different game back then. Lowry will go down as a very good player who played a pivotal role in our Championship run. But Zeke is a true HoF who actually carried his team through out his career. Sure we all hated him as a GM, but let's not let that crowd our judgement.

True, but not only has Lowry put up some great numbers during his stint in Toronto, but he's been an advanced stat and intangibles king - leading the league in charges multiple teams, among the league leaders in RPM, in deflections etc.

He was the best player on a team that has had the 2nd best record in the NBA over the course of a 5 year span, just after the Warriors. That is very, very impressive.

Anybody who's followed the Raptors closely knows that Lowry has been the engine of our great teams - without him and we fall apart.

The only thing holding Lowry back from getting into the HOF is the perception of him as a playoff choker which has way overblown. I think only after this recent playoff stint has the American media starting noticing and appreciating who Lowry is as a player. Now we are finally seeing people acknowledge how vital Lowry is to the team and how great of a two-way player he actually is - something we have noticed for years now, but very few who have not followed our team closely have noticed.

As I said before, advance stats today is extremely different than back then. Think about how different the game is called. The charges that you see Lowry gets would have been a no call back then. You learned to take that hit because the moment you flop to the ground is when your opponent scores on you then laugh in your face. (Shawn Kemp dunk comes to mind) I do not doubt that Lowry was the engine of our team and a true leader. He made some really important baskets during this run that turned the game around. On the other hand, Isiah did this through out his entire career. The mere fact that he is capable of getting under Jordan's skin is good enough to put him in the HoF. I did not enjoy the Bad Boy's style of game, but to be able to win a Championship in that era with the relatively limited talent level on that team. They did what they had to to get it done. That mental toughness is rarely seen in today's game. His play making ability during his prime years is Stockton like. His ability to lead the team is by far superior to Lowry.

Huh?

You realize that Lowry LEADS the league in charges almost every year. During the playoffs he took double the amount of charges as Draymond Green, who was second in the playoffs in charges taken. During the playoffs Lowry took more charges then Portland and Sacramento did all season. Do you understand how ridiculous that is? If it was so easy to do then every player in the league would do it.

I really don't know what you are saying because charges have always been a huge part of the game. Shane Battier carved a nice role as 3 + D player in this league for constantly leading the league in charges during the 2000s. Very few players are willing to sacrifice their bodies like Lowry has for the benefit of the team.

I am not taking anything away from IT, he is an all-time great, but he also had prime Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Dantley and Aguirre. IT was the leader but those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. It's no coincidence that once they lost players like Rodman and others in the early 90s their record went way down. In 1992 the Pistons won 48 games, in 1993 they won 40 games and in 1994 they won 20 games. To say that those late 80s Pistons teams had relatively limited talent is a disservice to how great that team was. In fact, IT only led the Pistons in win shares one time during that era. Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars or Dantley usually always led the team in win shares.

IT is an all-time great, but Lowry isn't that far behind.

Lowry's 7 year stint in Toronto is one of the best ever for a point guard. Averaging 19 and 8 and leading a team to multiple 50+ win seasons, including a conference finals appearance and a championship, while leading the league in charges almost every year is a huge.

Lowry deserves to be a HOF, no doubt about it. He should be in the conversation for all-time great point guards by the time his career is done.

[canada_dry]

I consistently foght against kyle lowry chokes in the playoffs takes...

But pull up their comparison in the playoffs and theres no discussion. Isiah was the best player on two title teams. Lowry was never quite good enough to be the best player on a title team.

This is kinda ridiculous and dishonest when everyone in here knows full on that lowry has been criticized for his playoff performances and then turn around and compare omly their season stats. Im lowrys number one fan bit this is kinda gross.



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[Danny1616]

I consistently foght against kyle lowry chokes in the playoffs takes...

But pull up their comparison in the playoffs and theres no discussion. Isiah was the best player on two title teams. Lowry was never quite good enough to be the best player on a title team.

This is kinda ridiculous and dishonest when everyone in here knows full on that lowry has been criticized for his playoff performances and then turn around and compare omly their season stats. Im lowrys number one fan bit this is kinda gross.



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

A lot of that is a matter of circumstances.

Chris Paul was a multiple runner up MVP who couldn't lead his team past the 2nd round in his career. He only made the conference finals as a second fiddle to Harden when he was past his prime. Most people would consider Chris Paul one of the top 5 point guards of all-time and arguably better than IT.

Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to game 6 of the ECF against the champion Cavaliers in 2016. Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, including a 1st and 2nd seed ranking in the East. That's very, very impressive.

Charles Barkley is considered the 2nd or 3rd greatest power forward of all-time with Karl Malone and Tim Duncan but only made the finals once in his career.

Has Isiah Thomas had a better career than Lowry? Yes.

Is the gap between Isiah Thomas and Lowry close? Yes.

[canada_dry]

Zeke's a first ballot.

This is silly.

It's silly that Zeke is a first ballot tbh

And this is why raptors fans have a rep as unknowledgable and just annoying. Wow.

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[canada_dry]

I consistently foght against kyle lowry chokes in the playoffs takes...

But pull up their comparison in the playoffs and theres no discussion. Isiah was the best player on two title teams. Lowry was never quite good enough to be the best player on a title team.

This is kinda ridiculous and dishonest when everyone in here knows full on that lowry has been criticized for his playoff performances and then turn around and compare omly their season stats. Im lowrys number one fan bit this is kinda gross.



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

A lot of that is a matter of circumstances.

Chris Paul was a multiple runner up MVP who couldn't lead his team past the 2nd round in his career. He only made the conference finals as a second fiddle to Harden when he was past his prime. Most people would consider Chris Paul one of the top 5 point guards of all-time and arguably better than IT.

Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to game 6 of the ECF against the champion Cavaliers in 2016. Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, including a 1st and 2nd seed ranking in the East. That's very, very impressive.

Charles Barkley is considered the 2nd or 3rd greatest power forward of all-time with Karl Malone and Tim Duncan but only made the finals once in his career.

Has Isiah Thomas had a better career than Lowry? Yes.

Is the gap between Isiah Thomas and Lowry close? Yes.

Its not close in the playoffs.

And u compared guys that werent able to win for one reason or another. They were still capable of winning.titles as the best guys. Lowry wasnt and we know it. Domt be dishonest with yourself.And anyways The reason why that is nonsense is because isiah still won titles. So why bring up guys that didnt when the comparison is to a guy who won two?

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[Danny1616]

I consistently foght against kyle lowry chokes in the playoffs takes...

But pull up their comparison in the playoffs and theres no discussion. Isiah was the best player on two title teams. Lowry was never quite good enough to be the best player on a title team.

This is kinda ridiculous and dishonest when everyone in here knows full on that lowry has been criticized for his playoff performances and then turn around and compare omly their season stats. Im lowrys number one fan bit this is kinda gross.



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

A lot of that is a matter of circumstances.

Chris Paul was a multiple runner up MVP who couldn't lead his team past the 2nd round in his career. He only made the conference finals as a second fiddle to Harden when he was past his prime. Most people would consider Chris Paul one of the top 5 point guards of all-time and arguably better than IT.

Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to game 6 of the ECF against the champion Cavaliers in 2016. Lowry as the best player of his team led the Raptors to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, including a 1st and 2nd seed ranking in the East. That's very, very impressive.

Charles Barkley is considered the 2nd or 3rd greatest power forward of all-time with Karl Malone and Tim Duncan but only made the finals once in his career.

Has Isiah Thomas had a better career than Lowry? Yes.

Is the gap between Isiah Thomas and Lowry close? Yes.

Its not close in the playoffs.

And u compared guys that werent able to win for one reason or another. They were still capable of winning.titles as the best guys. Lowry wasnt and we know it. Domt be dishonest with yourself.And anyways The reason why that is nonsense is because isiah still won titles. So why bring up guys that didnt when the comparison is to a guy who won two?

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Because Isiah had guys like Rodman, Dumars, Laimbeer, Dantley, Aguirre etc. I am not taking anything away from Isiah, he's a better point guard than Lowry. I'm just saying that the gap between them isn't as big as what people think. Isiah is a 1st ballot hall of hamer, but Lowry (while not a 1st ballot) deserves to be a hall of famer as well.

Same with a guy like Billups. Billups is a great point guard and was the finals MVP on that 2004 Pistons team, but it helped he had Rip Hamilton, Sheed and Ben Wallace on that team...it was stacked.

Yeah, and Lowry won a title as well, lol. Lowry led the Raptors to game 6 of the ECF against the Cavaliers with Demar as his running mate and a supporting of JV, Patterson, Biyombo, Cojo, Carroll, Powell etc. while Isiah Thomas led his team to a chip with Rodman (the best defensive player and rebounder in the league), Dumars (a multiple time all-star and also one of the top defensive players in the league), Laimbeer (a multiple-time all-star and former top rebounder in the league), Dantley (multiple time all-star and 2 time scoring champ), and Aguirre (multiple time all-star).

So Isiah basically played with 3 other all-stars on his team in their prime (including Dantley who led the NBA in scoring and Aguirre after he was traded for Dantley who was also a top scorer).

[3Si]

True, but not only has Lowry put up some great numbers during his stint in Toronto, but he's been an advanced stat and intangibles king - leading the league in charges multiple teams, among the league leaders in RPM, in deflections etc.

He was the best player on a team that has had the 2nd best record in the NBA over the course of a 5 year span, just after the Warriors. That is very, very impressive.

Anybody who's followed the Raptors closely knows that Lowry has been the engine of our great teams - without him and we fall apart.

The only thing holding Lowry back from getting into the HOF is the perception of him as a playoff choker which has way overblown. I think only after this recent playoff stint has the American media starting noticing and appreciating who Lowry is as a player. Now we are finally seeing people acknowledge how vital Lowry is to the team and how great of a two-way player he actually is - something we have noticed for years now, but very few who have not followed our team closely have noticed.

As I said before, advance stats today is extremely different than back then. Think about how different the game is called. The charges that you see Lowry gets would have been a no call back then. You learned to take that hit because the moment you flop to the ground is when your opponent scores on you then laugh in your face. (Shawn Kemp dunk comes to mind) I do not doubt that Lowry was the engine of our team and a true leader. He made some really important baskets during this run that turned the game around. On the other hand, Isiah did this through out his entire career. The mere fact that he is capable of getting under Jordan's skin is good enough to put him in the HoF. I did not enjoy the Bad Boy's style of game, but to be able to win a Championship in that era with the relatively limited talent level on that team. They did what they had to to get it done. That mental toughness is rarely seen in today's game. His play making ability during his prime years is Stockton like. His ability to lead the team is by far superior to Lowry.

Huh?

You realize that Lowry LEADS the league in charges almost every year. During the playoffs he took double the amount of charges as Draymond Green, who was second in the playoffs in charges taken. During the playoffs Lowry took more charges then Portland and Sacramento did all season. Do you understand how ridiculous that is? If it was so easy to do then every player in the league would do it.

I really don't know what you are saying because charges have always been a huge part of the game. Shane Battier carved a nice role as 3 + D player in this league for constantly leading the league in charges during the 2000s. Very few players are willing to sacrifice their bodies like Lowry has for the benefit of the team.

I am not taking anything away from IT, he is an all-time great, but he also had prime Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Dantley and Aguirre. IT was the leader but those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. It's no coincidence that once they lost players like Rodman and others in the early 90s their record went way down. In 1992 the Pistons won 48 games, in 1993 they won 40 games and in 1994 they won 20 games. To say that those late 80s Pistons teams had relatively limited talent is a disservice to how great that team was. In fact, IT only led the Pistons in win shares one time during that era. Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars or Dantley usually always led the team in win shares.

IT is an all-time great, but Lowry isn't that far behind.

Lowry's 7 year stint in Toronto is one of the best ever for a point guard. Averaging 19 and 8 and leading a team to multiple 50+ win seasons, including a conference finals appearance and a championship, while leading the league in charges almost every year is a huge.

Lowry deserves to be a HOF, no doubt about it. He should be in the conversation for all-time great point guards by the time his career is done.

Don't think you understand what I wrote. I'm not saying what Lowry did was easy. I'm saying the same play that Lowry got a call would not have been a charge during the Thomas era. Hence comparing stats in different era is not a true representation of a player's skill level. As a FIBA referee myself, rule changes effect the game dramatically. 2017 travelling rule modification changed so many calls. The less physical modern day NBA compared to the Bad Boys days is completely different.

The players your mentioned are very good role players. Dumar is a tier 2 or 3 star that fit the system. Thomas was the only super star in Detroit. Don't get me wrong, Laimbber, Rodman all played their roles to an All Star level. But compared to the rest of the League, Jordan had Pipen, Magic had an all star team, Bird... Detroit never had another tier 1 super star to support Isiah. Let's put it into perspective, Kyle needed a Kawhi to win it who was arguably a Top 3 player. Thomas never had anyone remotely close to being a top 5 player in the league.

[Raptolicism]

I LOVE Kyle Lowry.

And I LOATHE Isiah Thomas.

But Isiah is the better player. As much as a smug, little POS, that I consider to be the first person to truly sell out the Raptors (before Damon), rat-faced, arrogant, cretan he is - this comparison is a bit silly.

[Kabookalu]

As I said before, advance stats today is extremely different than back then. Think about how different the game is called. The charges that you see Lowry gets would have been a no call back then. You learned to take that hit because the moment you flop to the ground is when your opponent scores on you then laugh in your face. (Shawn Kemp dunk comes to mind) I do not doubt that Lowry was the engine of our team and a true leader. He made some really important baskets during this run that turned the game around. On the other hand, Isiah did this through out his entire career. The mere fact that he is capable of getting under Jordan's skin is good enough to put him in the HoF. I did not enjoy the Bad Boy's style of game, but to be able to win a Championship in that era with the relatively limited talent level on that team. They did what they had to to get it done. That mental toughness is rarely seen in today's game. His play making ability during his prime years is Stockton like. His ability to lead the team is by far superior to Lowry.

Huh?

You realize that Lowry LEADS the league in charges almost every year. During the playoffs he took double the amount of charges as Draymond Green, who was second in the playoffs in charges taken. During the playoffs Lowry took more charges then Portland and Sacramento did all season. Do you understand how ridiculous that is? If it was so easy to do then every player in the league would do it.

I really don't know what you are saying because charges have always been a huge part of the game. Shane Battier carved a nice role as 3 + D player in this league for constantly leading the league in charges during the 2000s. Very few players are willing to sacrifice their bodies like Lowry has for the benefit of the team.

I am not taking anything away from IT, he is an all-time great, but he also had prime Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, Dantley and Aguirre. IT was the leader but those Pistons teams were absolutely stacked. It's no coincidence that once they lost players like Rodman and others in the early 90s their record went way down. In 1992 the Pistons won 48 games, in 1993 they won 40 games and in 1994 they won 20 games. To say that those late 80s Pistons teams had relatively limited talent is a disservice to how great that team was. In fact, IT only led the Pistons in win shares one time during that era. Laimbeer, Rodman, Dumars or Dantley usually always led the team in win shares.

IT is an all-time great, but Lowry isn't that far behind.

Lowry's 7 year stint in Toronto is one of the best ever for a point guard. Averaging 19 and 8 and leading a team to multiple 50+ win seasons, including a conference finals appearance and a championship, while leading the league in charges almost every year is a huge.

Lowry deserves to be a HOF, no doubt about it. He should be in the conversation for all-time great point guards by the time his career is done.

Don't think you understand what I wrote. I'm not saying what Lowry did was easy. I'm saying the same play that Lowry got a call would not have been a charge during the Thomas era. Hence comparing stats in different era is not a true representation of a player's skill level. As a FIBA referee myself, rule changes effect the game dramatically. 2017 travelling rule modification changed so many calls. The less physical modern day NBA compared to the Bad Boys days is completely different.

The players your mentioned are very good role players. Dumar is a tier 2 or 3 star that fit the system. Thomas was the only super star in Detroit. Don't get me wrong, Laimbber, Rodman all played their roles to an All Star level. But compared to the rest of the League, Jordan had Pipen, Magic had an all star team, Bird... Detroit never had another tier 1 super star to support Isiah. Let's put it into perspective, Kyle needed a Kawhi to win it who was arguably a Top 3 player. Thomas never had anyone remotely close to being a top 5 player in the league.

Actually I'd say it's the opposite, Lowry would get more charges called for him in that era. I mean we're talking about the Bad Boys here, the ones who forced the league to look at charging calls because they were the first to weaponize it in their favor (well, moreso flopping but charges too). Refs didn't look at charging calls with as much critical care as they do now. I watched a finals game in the late 70's and it's actually comical how easy it was to sell charging calls to the ref.

[Duffman100]

Someone please post this on the GB. I can't... I've been fighting the Lowry fight too much on there recently and won't be taken seriously.

[Badonkadonk]

Zeke's a first ballot.

This is silly.

It's silly that Zeke is a first ballot tbh

I mean, he was the first option on a team that won multiples.

People look at the stats, like they matter. They look past the fact the him and Laimbeer dominated the league for the better half of a decade with those stats.

That's really the problem with going back more than a decade for a comparison. They aren't really playing the same game.

I never said Zeke shouldn't be in the HoF, I just think first ballots should happen for the greatest of the greats ... the Jordans, Magics, Birds, Wilts, Russells, Duncas, Kareems etc.

I'm also not comparing Kyle to him; obviously Isiah has had the better career.

[WaltFrazier]

As much as I love Lowry, Isiah is in a different league. I wonder how many of you have actually seen IT play. Numbers might be similar but it was a completely different game back then. Lowry will go down as a very good player who played a pivotal role in our Championship run. But Zeke is a true HoF who actually carried his team through out his career. Sure we all hated him as a GM, but let's not let that crowd our judgement.

This. It's about the eye test not these modern stats. Zeke should have been on the original 92 Dream team if MJ hadn't kept him off - he was that good. Watch Open court sometime when they talk about the past, see how reverentially slightly younger players talk about him.

Having said that, Kyle did something this year that Isiah did to turn the Bad Boys into champions - intentionally scored less and became more of a playmaker in order to make the team better.

[Johnny Bball]

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

So you all are saying, objectively, Lowry should be number 5 on this list? That's the best way I can say how far off this is. Zeke is just a different class. And the NBA Finals MVP award will keep him there.

And lol at not first ballot.

[StringerBell]

Where did this guy get his numbers from? According bball ref, IT's best years from 82/83 - 88/89 he averaged 21/10/4. Lowry averaged 17/7/5 during raps tenure.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I never said Zeke shouldn't be in the HoF, I just think first ballots should happen for the greatest of the greats ... the Jordans, Magics, Birds, Wilts, Russells, Duncas, Kareems etc.

I'm also not comparing Kyle to him; obviously Isiah has had the better career.

It's all good, I get what you mean.

[ash_k]

it is straight up disrespectful (to Zeke)...massively disrespectful to put Kyle in the same breath as original Dream Teamer (if it wasnt for GOAT) Zeke...Stop this.(nice original Post to show how "identical" numbers from different eras can be so deceiving !)
anyway Kyle will be in the HOF.