Most skilled big man: KAJ, Olajuwon, Duncan?

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm with you. When you are talking about best ever, the margins between players are thin. When making decisions you have to look at things like how many ways can a player beat you.

No disrespect to Dirk, but there is a reason he only won 1 title, and Duncan won 5. It's not like Dirk didn't have help, but he is easier to game plan for then the other players because if his shot is off, he doesn't have as many ways to beat you. Guys like Duncan and Olajuwon have counters upon counters and a million different combinations of ways to beat you.

I'm not saying that Dirk is the best player of the four, just that he has an argument for the most "skilled," though obviously that depends on how you define skills. None of the other guys could dribble and shoot like Dirk, but he had less post skills than any of them.

Also, Hakeem only had two rings and is running away with the poll. Dirk played in as many finals, lost one of the more controversial/conspiratorial finals of the past few decades in 2006 and won a title over the Heat Superteam that I'd certainly rank higher on the accomplishment chart than either of Hakeem's wins during Jordan's sabbatical. Again, I'm not saying that Dirk is necessarily better than Hakeem - I chose Hakeem in the poll. I just wouldn't argue that it's because of rings.

The main premise of my argument was not Duncan has more rings, therefore he is more skilled. It was just a piece of supporting evidence. I agree, Dirk is unreal. He's one of my favourite players. But I've seen him choke more than he's delivered too. His run against the Heat superteam was remarkable. But that's the level of ball he needed to play in order to win. He couldn't do that all the time. There are examples of him losing as a 65 win 1st seed in the first round too. I'll put Olajuwon's resume up against Dirks any day.

You asked who is more skilled not who is more better, more accomplished or a more winning player - so why are you saying things like Dirk didn't win as much Duncan, or his resume isn't as good as Hakeem's? Are you under the impression that if a player is better than another it's because they are more skilled?

[infinite11285]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

[HoopsterJones]

In terms of skill I’d say Olajuwon. Best overall is KAJ. Most fundamental is Duncan.

3 of the top 10 players of all time.

[First Step]

I'm not saying that Dirk is the best player of the four, just that he has an argument for the most "skilled," though obviously that depends on how you define skills. None of the other guys could dribble and shoot like Dirk, but he had less post skills than any of them.

Also, Hakeem only had two rings and is running away with the poll. Dirk played in as many finals, lost one of the more controversial/conspiratorial finals of the past few decades in 2006 and won a title over the Heat Superteam that I'd certainly rank higher on the accomplishment chart than either of Hakeem's wins during Jordan's sabbatical. Again, I'm not saying that Dirk is necessarily better than Hakeem - I chose Hakeem in the poll. I just wouldn't argue that it's because of rings.

The main premise of my argument was not Duncan has more rings, therefore he is more skilled. It was just a piece of supporting evidence. I agree, Dirk is unreal. He's one of my favourite players. But I've seen him choke more than he's delivered too. His run against the Heat superteam was remarkable. But that's the level of ball he needed to play in order to win. He couldn't do that all the time. There are examples of him losing as a 65 win 1st seed in the first round too. I'll put Olajuwon's resume up against Dirks any day.

You asked who is more skilled not who is more better, more accomplished or a more winning player - so why are you saying things like Dirk didn't win as much Duncan, or his resume isn't as good as Hakeem's? Are you under the impression that if a player is better than another it's because they are more skilled?

I answered the question you asked in the post you quoted. Skill and being good aren't mutually exclusive. It was used in support of his skillset being superior.

[HeartBreakKid]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Again...most skilled does not mean better. Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic in what way?

Jokic is not even a fraction of the athlete Hakeem is and is still one of the best players in the league. Jokic is one of the best passers in the league, and probably the best passing center the NBA ever seen - Hakeem was not a good passer for most of his career. Jokic's shooting range is much better. Jokic is not as good in the paint in Olajuwon, but the way he scores is more heavily reliant on skill than Olajuwon's methods (floaters, runners, baby hooks he uses in much higher volume than Hakeem and with less lift). Jokic gets rebounds off of reads and boxing out. He is an elite screener. Elite pick and pop. Elite high post hub. He can run the fast break while dribbling full court. He can outlet pass....

Jokic isn't even a bad defender, he is actually stereotyped to be one because of how awful of an athlete he is. That's how skilled he is, that people think the guy is one of the worst defenders in the league because of how goofy he moves when statistically speaking he is nowhere near that.

So again, what do you mean he would "embarrass" Jokic? I'm sorry, there is like no argument that Olajuwon is a more skilled player than Jokic (I seriously cannot think of one) - unless you think that because Olajuwon is one of the GOATs and Jokic is not that means he is automatically more skilled?


No offense to posters here, but saying Hakeem is the most skilled big of all time is almost like saying he isn't an elite athlete. People here correlate goodness with player attributes too much. Hakeem is a skilled, high IQ player with elite athleticism, this doesn't mean that he has goat skill, goat, iq, and goat athleticism.

[israelfirst]

My vote for goes to Karl anthony towns

[Gooner]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Again...most skilled does not mean better. Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic in what way?

Jokic is not even a fraction of the athlete Hakeem is and is still one of the best players in the league. Jokic is one of the best passers in the league, and probably the best passing center - Hakeem was not a good passer for most of his career. Jokic's shooting range is much better. Jokic is not as good in the paint in Olajuwon, but the way he scores is more heavily reliant on skill than Olajuwon's methods (floaters, runners, baby hooks he uses in much higher volume than Hakeem and with less lift). Jokic gets rebounds off of reads and boxing out. He is an elite screener. Elite pick and pop. Elite high post hub. He can run the fast break while dribbling full court. He can outlet pass....Jokic isn't even a bad defender, he is actually stereotyped to be one because of how awful of an athlete he is.

So again, what do you mean he would "embarrass" Jokic? I'm sorry, there is like no argument that Olajuwon is a more skilled player than Jokic (I seriously cannot think of one) - unless you think that because Olajuwon is one of the GOATs and Jokic is not that means he is automatically more skilled?


No offense to posters here, but saying Hakeem is the most skilled big of all time is almost like saying he isn't an elite athlete. People here correlate goodness with player attributes too much. Hakeem is a skilled, high IQ player with elite athleticism, this doesn't mean that he has goat skill, goat, iq, and goat athleticism.

You are actually questioning Hakeem's skill. You can read everything on this forum. You mention Jokic and his use of floaters, runners and baby hooks. Hakeem used all of that more than him, with more variety. He was also crossing people up, his footwork was better, he had a turnaround jumper, dream shake...

Hakeem was a great passer too, go watch some of his games. I don't know where you get these ideas from. It seems to me that you always try to downplay MJ's generation. Hakeem just didn't play in an era wher bigs were used as main playmakers. Every big has higher assist numbers today compared to like 5 years ago, it's because of the way they are used in this three point shooting league. Look at Cousins, Griffin or Horford. You see Jokic running a fast break today, just imagine Hakeem in that position, who was twice as fast, and he had a better handle. Playing in today's small ball, three point shooting league, it would be a child's play for Olajuwon. Nobody even double teams a center anymore.

[MarcusBrody]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Again...most skilled does not mean better. Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic in what way?

Jokic is not even a fraction of the athlete Hakeem is and is still one of the best players in the league. Jokic is one of the best passers in the league, and probably the best passing center the NBA ever seen - Hakeem was not a good passer for most of his career. Jokic's shooting range is much better. Jokic is not as good in the paint in Olajuwon, but the way he scores is more heavily reliant on skill than Olajuwon's methods (floaters, runners, baby hooks he uses in much higher volume than Hakeem and with less lift). Jokic gets rebounds off of reads and boxing out. He is an elite screener. Elite pick and pop. Elite high post hub. He can run the fast break while dribbling full court. He can outlet pass....

Jokic isn't even a bad defender, he is actually stereotyped to be one because of how awful of an athlete he is. That's how skilled he is, that people think the guy is one of the worst defenders in the league because of how goofy he moves when statistically speaking he is nowhere near that.

So again, what do you mean he would "embarrass" Jokic? I'm sorry, there is like no argument that Olajuwon is a more skilled player than Jokic (I seriously cannot think of one) - unless you think that because Olajuwon is one of the GOATs and Jokic is not that means he is automatically more skilled?


No offense to posters here, but saying Hakeem is the most skilled big of all time is almost like saying he isn't an elite athlete. People here correlate goodness with player attributes too much. Hakeem is a skilled, high IQ player with elite athleticism, this doesn't mean that he has goat skill, goat, iq, and goat athleticism.

I would say the argument against this is that some skills are more difficult at Hakeem speed than Jokic speed. What's most impressive about Hakeem to me skill wise was the body control at speed on the spin moves. True it was a specific move which could be practiced, but he did it so well, tightly, and quickly, that I absolutely consider that combination "skill" (though it takes athleticism too obviously).

Jokic's passing is probably my favorite skill to watch in the current NBA, though. Watching him dominate with skill (and size) without appearing that athletic is super fun.

[hoosierdaddy34]

Olajuwon then KAJ and finally Duncan.

[Gooner]

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

Tim Duncan's game was 100% skill based while Hakeem relied heavily on athleticism.

Even when Duncan was in decline, he was still an elite big man thanks to his fundamentals.

I cannot say the same for Hakeem.

Tim Duncan also heavily relied on size...you do realize that Kareem, Hakeem and Duncan all had big physical advantages over their opponents on top of their skills and IQ. There is nothing that indicates Tim Duncan is a more skilled offensive player than Zach Randolph, but he is certainly more athletic and WAY bigger. (Zach is more skilled than all three guys, but no one humor it because he's not a superstar

Hakeem is one of the most athletic centers of all time, so yes, Duncan cannot compare to him there - but making it seem like Duncan was not a physical problem is insulting to players who actually were undersized or had bad athleticism. Tim Duncan had elite size and moved very well for his size. He wasn't one of the highest rated prospects of all time because he had a bank shot dude.

Zach Randolph more skilled than Duncan, Olajuwon and KAJ? I'm done.

[Lalouie]

bill walton

[hoosierdaddy34]

Probably Tim Duncan,there's a reason why he's called as "The Big Fundamental".

Hakeem has a case to be most skilled big man ever.

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

Tim Duncan's game was 100% skill based while Hakeem relied heavily on athleticism.

Even when Duncan was in decline, he was still an elite big man thanks to his fundamentals.

I cannot say the same for Hakeem.

Hakeem had the best footwork of any big man, ever. This is a seriously uninformed take.

[hoosierdaddy34]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Now this is a prime example of severe recency bias.

[Gooner]

um, literally because they couldnt think of anything else to call him.

Tim Duncan's game was 100% skill based while Hakeem relied heavily on athleticism.

Even when Duncan was in decline, he was still an elite big man thanks to his fundamentals.

I cannot say the same for Hakeem.

Hakeem had the best footwork of any big man, ever. This is a seriously uninformed take.

Yeah, that's why all those players go to him for lessons. But what do they know.

[sikma42]

I dont know how much of that skyhook was skill vs insane work ethic. But I'll tell you that it's the hardest shot I've ever tried to add to my game by far.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[hoosierdaddy34]

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Again...most skilled does not mean better. Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic in what way?

Jokic is not even a fraction of the athlete Hakeem is and is still one of the best players in the league. Jokic is one of the best passers in the league, and probably the best passing center - Hakeem was not a good passer for most of his career. Jokic's shooting range is much better. Jokic is not as good in the paint in Olajuwon, but the way he scores is more heavily reliant on skill than Olajuwon's methods (floaters, runners, baby hooks he uses in much higher volume than Hakeem and with less lift). Jokic gets rebounds off of reads and boxing out. He is an elite screener. Elite pick and pop. Elite high post hub. He can run the fast break while dribbling full court. He can outlet pass....Jokic isn't even a bad defender, he is actually stereotyped to be one because of how awful of an athlete he is.

So again, what do you mean he would "embarrass" Jokic? I'm sorry, there is like no argument that Olajuwon is a more skilled player than Jokic (I seriously cannot think of one) - unless you think that because Olajuwon is one of the GOATs and Jokic is not that means he is automatically more skilled?


No offense to posters here, but saying Hakeem is the most skilled big of all time is almost like saying he isn't an elite athlete. People here correlate goodness with player attributes too much. Hakeem is a skilled, high IQ player with elite athleticism, this doesn't mean that he has goat skill, goat, iq, and goat athleticism.

You are actually questioning Hakeem's skill. You can read everything on this forum. You mention Jokic and his use of floaters, runners and baby hooks. Hakeem used all of that more than him, with more variety. He was also crossing people up, his footwork was better, he had a turnaround jumper, dream shake...

Hakeem was a great passer too, go watch some of his games. I don't know where you get these ideas from. It seems to me that you always try to downplay MJ's generation. Hakeem just didn't play in an era wher bigs were used as main playmakers. Every big has higher assist numbers today compared to like 5 years ago, it's because of the way they are used in this three point shooting league. Look at Cousins, Griffin or Horford. You see Jokic running a fast break today, just imagine Hakeem in that position, who was twice as fast, and he had a better handle. Playing in today's small ball, three point shooting league, it would be a child's play for Olajuwon. Nobody even double teams a center anymore.

Seriously! I just can’t with some of these people today. It’s like they are commenting despite never having seen Hakeem play before. And I’m not a Rockets fan but Christ, the lunacy of some of these comments is mind boggling.

[Chris76]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Again...most skilled does not mean better. Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic in what way?

Jokic is not even a fraction of the athlete Hakeem is and is still one of the best players in the league. Jokic is one of the best passers in the league, and probably the best passing center the NBA ever seen - Hakeem was not a good passer for most of his career. Jokic's shooting range is much better. Jokic is not as good in the paint in Olajuwon, but the way he scores is more heavily reliant on skill than Olajuwon's methods (floaters, runners, baby hooks he uses in much higher volume than Hakeem and with less lift). Jokic gets rebounds off of reads and boxing out. He is an elite screener. Elite pick and pop. Elite high post hub. He can run the fast break while dribbling full court. He can outlet pass....

Jokic isn't even a bad defender, he is actually stereotyped to be one because of how awful of an athlete he is. That's how skilled he is, that people think the guy is one of the worst defenders in the league because of how goofy he moves when statistically speaking he is nowhere near that.

So again, what do you mean he would "embarrass" Jokic? I'm sorry, there is like no argument that Olajuwon is a more skilled player than Jokic (I seriously cannot think of one) - unless you think that because Olajuwon is one of the GOATs and Jokic is not that means he is automatically more skilled?


No offense to posters here, but saying Hakeem is the most skilled big of all time is almost like saying he isn't an elite athlete. People here correlate goodness with player attributes too much. Hakeem is a skilled, high IQ player with elite athleticism, this doesn't mean that he has goat skill, goat, iq, and goat athleticism.

Good breakdown between skill and athleticism.

Similarly, Jokic vs Embiid.

If Embiid could pass like Jokic, how much easier the Sixers offense would flow.

Embiid not recognizing double teams and making quick decisions has to be one of his biggest flaws. Hopefully, he can improve in those skills.

[Gooner]

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Again...most skilled does not mean better. Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic in what way?

Jokic is not even a fraction of the athlete Hakeem is and is still one of the best players in the league. Jokic is one of the best passers in the league, and probably the best passing center the NBA ever seen - Hakeem was not a good passer for most of his career. Jokic's shooting range is much better. Jokic is not as good in the paint in Olajuwon, but the way he scores is more heavily reliant on skill than Olajuwon's methods (floaters, runners, baby hooks he uses in much higher volume than Hakeem and with less lift). Jokic gets rebounds off of reads and boxing out. He is an elite screener. Elite pick and pop. Elite high post hub. He can run the fast break while dribbling full court. He can outlet pass....

Jokic isn't even a bad defender, he is actually stereotyped to be one because of how awful of an athlete he is. That's how skilled he is, that people think the guy is one of the worst defenders in the league because of how goofy he moves when statistically speaking he is nowhere near that.

So again, what do you mean he would "embarrass" Jokic? I'm sorry, there is like no argument that Olajuwon is a more skilled player than Jokic (I seriously cannot think of one) - unless you think that because Olajuwon is one of the GOATs and Jokic is not that means he is automatically more skilled?


No offense to posters here, but saying Hakeem is the most skilled big of all time is almost like saying he isn't an elite athlete. People here correlate goodness with player attributes too much. Hakeem is a skilled, high IQ player with elite athleticism, this doesn't mean that he has goat skill, goat, iq, and goat athleticism.

Good breakdown between skill and athleticism.

Similarly, Jokic vs Embiid.

If Embiid could pass like Jokic, how much easier the Sixers offense would flow.

Embiid not recognizing double teams and making quick decisions has to be one of his biggest flaws. Hopefully, he can improve in those skills.

If, if, if... it doesn't matter. Every players has his own characteristics. You can't diminish someone's skill just because of athleticism. JaVale McGee is just as big and athletic as Olajuwon. The game doesn't came as easy to him, does it?

[dhsilv2]

Are we agreeing that Duncan is a center in this context? Because if not and seven foot power forwards count, Dirk would certainly be up there even though he didn't do his work in the low post. He was impressively skilled, especially when young.

Between the three you listed, I chose Hakeem, but really could have happily chose any. I didn't watch Kareem, but I just finished 70sfan's excellent edit so am even higher on him at the moment. Duncan is obviously amazing in a million ways, large and small. I gave it to Hakeem though, which might be just because of his apparent fluidity, though I wouldn't sat he was more effective than the other two.

Duncan never played a minute at anything but center by the outdated ideas of positions.

[Duffman100]

Gotta go with Hakeem. Duncan below him.

KAJ just isn't there yet. But I'd love to see him with a good young teammate.