Most skilled big man: KAJ, Olajuwon, Duncan?

[70sFan]

Shooting, footwork, fakes, passing and dribbling are skills, not height or athletic ability. KAJ had 1 move.

Dirk
Hakeem
McHale
KG
Yao

all more 'skilled' than Duncan or KAJ. But none were better.

Kareem had more just one move, watch my video about his post game.

[Curmudgeon]

The most skilled big man I ever saw was Arvydas Sabonis when he still had knees.

[NPZ]

I think it's Olajuwon and I love Kareem and I'm a fan of his. He was automatic at 3-4 different spots in the key. As automatic as any center has ever been. I however saw Hakeem from 92-95 and the guy was at a ridiculous peak in those years. Fluid and had a full bag of tricks to help him score. Footwork was as good as it gets in pro hoops. I think his height actually helped him against bigger Cs. He slipped right by all of them many a time. He used his quickness that came with being a smaller human being than Shaq to his advantage. Lakers and Rockets played in 1st round in 1996 and Hakeem who was starting to lose a step still made Vlade Divac look like a fool with all these headfakes and sh. It wasn't fun facing Hakeem in the playoffs. In 99 they played 1st round again and by that time Hakeem was beginning to look like a shell of his former self. Shaq was dominating him.

[Salieri]

Shooting, footwork, fakes, passing and dribbling are skills, not height or athletic ability. KAJ had 1 move.

Dirk
Hakeem
McHale
KG
Yao

all more 'skilled' than Duncan or KAJ. But none were better.

Thanks for proving my point

[Justin33]

If talking about pure low post skill there is no better than Kevin McHale

Watch on YouTube

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm not sure what is a bigger face palm - people watching a few highlights of Olajuwon doing his dream shake and thinking that is a skill that isn't show casing his amazing athleticism (people here legitimately do not realize that centers cannot move like Olajuwon, he wasn't doing some footwork no one ever saw before, he was just doing it way faster) or people thinking KAJ is KAT...which kind of shows you that people should not be talking about older players on this board.

Honestly, I have no idea how Hakeem is even close to KAJ/Kareem - it almost totally undermines that he was more athletic than both guys. Killing guys with a long range hook shot that is modified in a way to be nearly unblockable is the epitome of mastering a skill.

And no, none of these three players are the most skilled bigs of all time. Again greatness =\ skill.

Also another problem is a lot of posters here make strange comparisons with players that have nothing to do with the topic. How many times am I going to see Dwight Howard mentioned as a way to prop up Hakeem? "Hey, Hakeem is clearly the most skilled, look at all the moves he can do that Dwight can do!". "Hakeem isn't a poor passer, look at Dwight Howard!" - ...maybe Dwight Howard was a very bad passer and not that skilled (sounds pretty accurate to me), that doesn't mean that Olajuwon is the goat in skill - there is a thing called middle ground. Again, it's just so painfully obvious who knows only a bit about these players based on reputation and highlights.


Anyway, some random posters laughing at the idea that Jokic MIGHT be more skilled than three MISMATCHES as receny bias kind of shows that people have no idea how to separate skill, athleticism and overall goodness. Saying Jokic is more skilled than Duncan is not recency bias (how the **** does that even make sense, Duncan retired two seasons ago), it doesn't mean that Jokic is BETTER than Duncan. Some posters here lack such critical thinking skills that they are essentially saying that size and athleticism makes no difference in how good a player is.

Yeah okay, the most skilled basketball players also happen to be the most athletic ones - seriously, think about that for two seconds and realize how unlikely that is.

[XxIronChainzxX]

I'm not sure what is a bigger face palm - people watching a few highlights of Olajuwon doing his dream shake and thinking that is a skill that isn't show casing his amazing athleticism (people here legitimately do not realize that centers cannot move like Olajuwon, he wasn't doing some footwork no one ever saw before, he was just doing it way faster) or people thinking KAJ is KAT...which kind of shows you that people should not be talking about older players on this board.

Honestly, I have no idea how Hakeem is even close to KAJ/Kareem - it almost totally undermines that he was more athletic than both guys. Killing guys with a long range hook shot that is modified in a way to be nearly unblockable is the epitome of mastering a skill.

And no, none of these three players are the most skilled bigs of all time. Again greatness =\ skill.

Also another problem is a lot of posters here make strange comparisons with players that have nothing to do with the topic. How many times am I going to see Dwight Howard mentioned as a way to prop up Hakeem? "Hey, Hakeem is clearly the most skilled, look at all the moves he can do that Dwight can do!". "Hakeem isn't a poor passer, look at Dwight Howard!" - ...maybe Dwight Howard was a very bad passer and not that skilled (sounds pretty accurate to me), that doesn't mean that Olajuwon is the goat in skill - there is a thing called middle ground. Again, it's just so painfully obvious who knows only a bit about these players based on reputation and highlights.


Anyway, some random posters laughing at the idea that Jokic MIGHT be more skilled than three MISMATCHES as receny bias kind of shows that people have no idea how to separate skill, athleticism and overall goodness. Saying Jokic is more skilled than Duncan is not recency bias (how the **** does that even make sense, Duncan retired two seasons ago), it doesn't mean that Jokic is BETTER than Duncan. Some posters here lack such critical thinking skills that they are essentially saying that size and athleticism makes no difference in how good a player is.

Yeah okay, the most skilled basketball players also happen to be the most athletic ones - seriously, think about that for two seconds and realize how unlikely that is.

There is a flaw with this - the idea that a player can be more skilled while being worse. It would mean there has to be some serious fundamental flaw in a players game.

When we're talking about two bigs, one of whom has built a HOF / top 15 career on skill, it is strange to say there is another current player who is both more skilled AND worse.

What makes Jokic more skilled but worse than Duncan, and how is that answer not about a lack of skill?

[infinite11285]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Hakeem's a MUCH better athlete...he isn't more skilled. In a skill contest between the two Hakeem would be like a child against an adult.

The only big that can hold a candle to The Dream in regard to skill is Sabonis.

[MarcusBrody]

Yeah okay, the most skilled basketball players also happen to be the most athletic ones - seriously, think about that for two seconds and realize how unlikely that is.

You're right. The most athletic players aren't necessarily the most skilled. But when you get to the GOAT tier, that's where you find players that were simultaneously the most skilled AND most athletic to play the game. KAJ was definitely one of the most amazing athletic specimens at his position, same as Olajuwon.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm not sure what is a bigger face palm - people watching a few highlights of Olajuwon doing his dream shake and thinking that is a skill that isn't show casing his amazing athleticism (people here legitimately do not realize that centers cannot move like Olajuwon, he wasn't doing some footwork no one ever saw before, he was just doing it way faster) or people thinking KAJ is KAT...which kind of shows you that people should not be talking about older players on this board.

Honestly, I have no idea how Hakeem is even close to KAJ/Kareem - it almost totally undermines that he was more athletic than both guys. Killing guys with a long range hook shot that is modified in a way to be nearly unblockable is the epitome of mastering a skill.

And no, none of these three players are the most skilled bigs of all time. Again greatness =\ skill.

Also another problem is a lot of posters here make strange comparisons with players that have nothing to do with the topic. How many times am I going to see Dwight Howard mentioned as a way to prop up Hakeem? "Hey, Hakeem is clearly the most skilled, look at all the moves he can do that Dwight can do!". "Hakeem isn't a poor passer, look at Dwight Howard!" - ...maybe Dwight Howard was a very bad passer and not that skilled (sounds pretty accurate to me), that doesn't mean that Olajuwon is the goat in skill - there is a thing called middle ground. Again, it's just so painfully obvious who knows only a bit about these players based on reputation and highlights.


Anyway, some random posters laughing at the idea that Jokic MIGHT be more skilled than three MISMATCHES as receny bias kind of shows that people have no idea how to separate skill, athleticism and overall goodness. Saying Jokic is more skilled than Duncan is not recency bias (how the **** does that even make sense, Duncan retired two seasons ago), it doesn't mean that Jokic is BETTER than Duncan. Some posters here lack such critical thinking skills that they are essentially saying that size and athleticism makes no difference in how good a player is.

Yeah okay, the most skilled basketball players also happen to be the most athletic ones - seriously, think about that for two seconds and realize how unlikely that is.

There is a flaw with this - the idea that a player can be more skilled while being worse. It would mean there has to be some serious fundamental flaw in a players game.

When we're talking about two bigs, one of whom has built a HOF / top 15 career on skill, it is strange to say there is another current player who is both more skilled AND worse.

What makes Jokic more skilled but worse than Duncan, and how is that answer not about a lack of skill?

You can absolutely be more skilled than someone and still be a worse player.

Jokic is more skilled than Duncan because he has better shooting, passing, handles and has a similar knowledge on post moves among other skills that he matches Duncan.

Duncan is a better player because his basketball IQ is just as high as Jokic's, and he is way more athletic. Duncan still has a ton of skill, so his athleticism pushes him over Jokic. Tim Duncan is better than Jokic because he is a much better defender than Jokic and a lot of that comes from his physical advantages and basketball IQ. Tim Duncan is so much more athletic than Jokic it's not even funny - people do not remember how well Duncan moved in 99. Heck, even as an old man he is more coordinated than Jokic is.

I get the impression that a lot of people think guys like Duncan and Kareem are not athletic beasts...they are legitimate 7 footers (even taller for Kareem) who move incredibly well and fluid. I think there is this notion if players aren't ripped with sweaty muscles they are not stellar athletes, or guys who play very long until they are old people tend to remember them in that form. Duncan, Kareem and Olajuwon were all PHYSICAL mismatches - if you did not have a big who could match them physically, you are essentially at their mercy, which is what makes them so good.

Some people though have a hard time not seeing extremes. If I say something like Duncan dominated people because of his size, people will take that as if I am saying Duncan is not skilled. There is middle ground..


I mean you are basically saying athleticism and size are not factors in how great players are. Steve Nash isn't any less skilled than Michael Jordan, doesn't mean that he is as good as him. Dwight Howard isn't more skilled than Joel Embiid or Yao Ming, but you could make a very strong argument he is a better player.




To add onto this, Tim Duncan past his prime was still an all-star caliber player, but he was not better than Jokic currently is - ditto with old Kareem (depending on which years we are talking about). The only thing that changed is that they got older and slower.

Saying that it is impossible to say that Jokic is more skilled than Duncan because he is a worse player is the same exact thing as saying that athleticism doesn't matter or Jokic is not less athletic than Duncan. You cannot rationalize it any other way.

[dk1115]

Hakeem had style to go along with his fundamentals. If you had to point to a way a center plays, I would say that it's something players should try to emulate. The footwork is just unmatched by anyone I've ever seen, although to be fair, I never got to see Kareem play.

[dhsilv2]

The most skilled big man I ever saw was Arvydas Sabonis when he still had knees.

Skill doesn't require knees.

[dhsilv2]

If talking about pure low post skill there is no better than Kevin McHale

Watch on YouTube

Unless you need someone to make a pass.

[dhsilv2]

Olajuwon would embarrass Jokic.

Hakeem's a MUCH better athlete...he isn't more skilled. In a skill contest between the two Hakeem would be like a child against an adult.

The only big that can hold a candle to The Dream in regard to skill is Sabonis.

If Duncan had Hakeem's athletic skills he would be the unquestioned GOAT. Imagine Duncan with that Dream Shake, lightening faster close out speed, and the ability step out on guards and lock them up. Duncan could have been a 35 - 15 - 10 guy.

There's a reason Toronto Hakeem was at best an ok starter and Duncan even in his last year was a top 25 nba player.

[PistolPeteJR]

As amazing as KAJ and even Duncan were down low on O, KAJ being better on that end and Duncan better than him on D, Hakeem was definitely better than Duncan on O and definitely better than KAJ on D. I’m going Dream.

[dhsilv2]

Hakeem had style to go along with his fundamentals. If you had to point to a way a center plays, I would say that it's something players should try to emulate. The footwork is just unmatched by anyone I've ever seen, although to be fair, I never got to see Kareem play.

If by style you mean he was so freaky athletic he could move like a guard then sure. Of course being one of if not the most mobile big men of all time is purely athletics in action. There's a reason every big man today doesn't have the "dream shake" in their bag. They can't physically do it.

[jinxed]

It's Nikola Jokic.

[jinxed]

There is a flaw with this - the idea that a player can be more skilled while being worse. It would mean there has to be some serious fundamental flaw in a players game.

When we're talking about two bigs, one of whom has built a HOF / top 15 career on skill, it is strange to say there is another current player who is both more skilled AND worse.

What makes Jokic more skilled but worse than Duncan, and how is that answer not about a lack of skill?

Because Jokic is shorter and fatter than TD, and that hinders him defensively. Jokic is better on offense, TD MUCH better on defense (although Jokic isn't nearly as bad as his reputation - he's actually decent on D). You could argue TD is also more skilled on D.

[XxIronChainzxX]

There is a flaw with this - the idea that a player can be more skilled while being worse. It would mean there has to be some serious fundamental flaw in a players game.

When we're talking about two bigs, one of whom has built a HOF / top 15 career on skill, it is strange to say there is another current player who is both more skilled AND worse.

What makes Jokic more skilled but worse than Duncan, and how is that answer not about a lack of skill?

Because Jokic is shorter and fatter than TD, and that hinders him defensively. Jokic is better on offense, TD MUCH better on defense (although Jokic isn't nearly as bad as his reputation - he's actually decent on D). You could argue TD is also more skilled on D.

Well, but that's the thing - is something a "skill" if you can't do it effectively at an NBA level? Especially when you consider both ends of the court?

Duncan is one of the greatest defenders of his generation. He was a talented post player. Just because - for example - Jokic is more skilled as a playmaker does not mean his more skilled overall.

Which loops back to the point about "skill".

[dhsilv2]

There is a flaw with this - the idea that a player can be more skilled while being worse. It would mean there has to be some serious fundamental flaw in a players game.

When we're talking about two bigs, one of whom has built a HOF / top 15 career on skill, it is strange to say there is another current player who is both more skilled AND worse.

What makes Jokic more skilled but worse than Duncan, and how is that answer not about a lack of skill?

Because Jokic is shorter and fatter than TD, and that hinders him defensively. Jokic is better on offense, TD MUCH better on defense (although Jokic isn't nearly as bad as his reputation - he's actually decent on D). You could argue TD is also more skilled on D.

Well, but that's the thing - is something a "skill" if you can't do it effectively at an NBA level? Especially when you consider both ends of the court?

Duncan is one of the greatest defenders of his generation. He was a talented post player. Just because - for example - Jokic is more skilled as a playmaker does not mean his more skilled overall.

Which loops back to the point about "skill".

What? Care to expand on that? I"m not sure I follow.

I mean are you claiming Duncan having longer arms for example is a skill? It sure made his defense better.