Most skilled big man: KAJ, Olajuwon, Duncan?

[Gooner]

You can always tell someone who doesn't know basketball by if they think hakeem was a good passer. Hakeem was considered for most of his career as a blackhole on offense. He routinely over dribbled, missed obvious passes, and even when he saw them would take too long to turned easy passes into hard ones. his teammates discussed how they'd not get to optimal SPACES on the floor but would try to get open in eye range of hakeem so they could make passing easier for him. The entire wheel spoke system was designed to make it easier for hakeem to become a passer.

Do you know what a cross over is? It hinges on for big guys being ELITE athletes, not skills. A crossover is a showcase of athletic ability, large hands, agility, being able to shift weight from side to side. Yes there is a skill level needed but it's comparative to passing a very low skill high athletic move.

So many bad takes here so little time. Hakeem wasn’t a great passer but he wasn’t a bad one like say Dwight Howard. Orlando used the same system for D12 yet he averaged only 1.5 assists per game vs 3.5 per game for Hakeem during those years.

You are conveniently ignoring that Hakeem had the greatest footwork of any player in the history of the game. Players flock to him to this day to learn his secrets. His dream shake was a move few big men have ever had the footwork, balance and court awareness to be able to pull off.

A crossover is part of ball handling. Ball handling is a skill. Having a better, quicker crossover shows a higher level of skill. You are using a ridiculous narrative to try and prop one player up while downplaying another. It makes zero sense. George Ackles of UNLV may have been the most athletic big man I’ve ever seen...go watch him try to perform a crossover and tell me again how it isn’t a skill.

This entire argument seems to be centered around passing being the most important sign of “skill” in a player. That’s nonsense. It’s one of many. Ball handling, footwork, rebounding, passing, inside scoring, outside shooting, shot diversity, hell even shot blocking is a skill. Shot blocking takes great timing and anticipation, the biggest and most athletic dudes aren’t automatically great shot blockers. Two of the best, Hakeem and Russell, were undersized compared to their counter parts but they had the skills to be great at it.

Again I’m not a Rockets fans, I’m actually a Lakers fan. But if you don’t think Hakeem was the most skilled big man, and in the conversation for skilled player ever? Help yourself and do some research. Watch some old games.

People see an Hakeem, a Jordan, a Kobe and think they live off their “athleticism”. Problem is that there are lots of 6’9 or 6’10 athletic big men. Many never make the NBA. There are plenty of 6’6 athletic defensive specialists around the league. They aren’t a Jordan or a Kobe. People like to down play their unbelievable skills and pass it off as “athleticism”. That’s a very uninformed outlook on the game of basketball. All three of those dudes have a ridiculous amount of skill and craft to their game. It speaks more about you than them if you can’t see it.

You don't understand athletics vs skills. I get it. It's a hard concept that requires you to be smarter. If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them, but please if you don't get the topic, don't try and make statements.

No, you are just making a silly argument. Crossover not a skill? Lol. Steve Nash had a good crossover, and he wasn't a great athlete by raw definition. The fact that I even have to explain why crossover is a skill, on a basketball forum, is quite worrying.

[Hillmatic94]

I find it funny how many people have mistaken “KAJ” with “KAT.” I guess it’s an understandable mistake, but with one caveat:

What’s funnier is the idea that people actually think Karl-Anthony **** Towns belongs in the same breath as any of those three legends, all arguably (if not certainly) top 10 players OAT. KAT has achieved nothing of his full potential, so we can’t even have this conversation with him in it. He has to go.

[Hillmatic94]

Jokic is a superb athlete. Athleticism is inclusive of skill. He huffs and puffs his way to triple doubles on a damn near nightly basis in a high altitude setting like Denver, CO. Give him a break.

Everyone in the NBA is a supreme athlete; whether you think you can run faster or jump higher, they are still all better athletes than you and 99% of the world.

[Hillmatic94]

I hardly ever post. I’m not going to say names. I don’t know anyone on this board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if that means their opinion supersedes reality (never said that doesn’t make someone crazy though).

However, I’m going to take the opportunity now to say that I am in disgusting disagreement with so many terrible displays of bullishness to go on top of uninformed opinions on this board. For a basketball forum that I see so many respectable discussions, I think I see twice the amount of vitriol spewed at one another over whose terrible opinion sucks less.

I always result to thinking there must be a large amount of young posters, but that is completely unfair of me to assume anyone’s age equals any less knowledge of the game. Ultimately, we’re all here, we all love the sport of basketball. But for the sake of quality basketball discussion, can we agree to a) respect others’ rights to their opinions, and b) take the time to think over your posts before you just say some BS that you don’t even fully know if you believe. Be ready to back your stuff up, explain your stance and why you believe it to be true, and be ready to acknowledge someone else’s argument or opinion is just as valid as yours. If you vehemently disagree with something, just post in another thread. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t mean you have to attack them. If someone’s post really is that stupid, it doesn’t take a intellectual or contrarian to sniff it out! Make like Frozen, let that **** go.

[Pg81]

I'm with you. When you are talking about best ever, the margins between players are thin. When making decisions you have to look at things like how many ways can a player beat you.

No disrespect to Dirk, but there is a reason he only won 1 title, and Duncan won 5. It's not like Dirk didn't have help, but he is easier to game plan for then the other players because if his shot is off, he doesn't have as many ways to beat you. Guys like Duncan and Olajuwon have counters upon counters and a million different combinations of ways to beat you.

I'm not saying that Dirk is the best player of the four, just that he has an argument for the most "skilled," though obviously that depends on how you define skills. None of the other guys could dribble and shoot like Dirk, but he had less post skills than any of them.

Also, Hakeem only had two rings and is running away with the poll. Dirk played in as many finals, lost one of the more controversial/conspiratorial finals of the past few decades in 2006 and won a title over the Heat Superteam that I'd certainly rank higher on the accomplishment chart than either of Hakeem's wins during Jordan's sabbatical. Again, I'm not saying that Dirk is necessarily better than Hakeem - I chose Hakeem in the poll. I just wouldn't argue that it's because of rings.

The main premise of my argument was not Duncan has more rings, therefore he is more skilled. It was just a piece of supporting evidence. I agree, Dirk is unreal. He's one of my favourite players. But I've seen him choke more than he's delivered too. His run against the Heat superteam was remarkable. But that's the level of ball he needed to play in order to win. He couldn't do that all the time. There are examples of him losing as a 65 win 1st seed in the first round too. I'll put Olajuwon's resume up against Dirks any day.

No, he has not.

[BloodNinja]

Hakeem. His arsenal was amazing and he had so many counters as well. He made big men like Ewing and Robinson look like amateurs on a few occasions.

[hoosierdaddy34]

I'm not sure what is a bigger face palm - people watching a few highlights of Olajuwon doing his dream shake and thinking that is a skill that isn't show casing his amazing athleticism (people here legitimately do not realize that centers cannot move like Olajuwon, he wasn't doing some footwork no one ever saw before, he was just doing it way faster) or people thinking KAJ is KAT...which kind of shows you that people should not be talking about older players on this board.

Honestly, I have no idea how Hakeem is even close to KAJ/Kareem - it almost totally undermines that he was more athletic than both guys. Killing guys with a long range hook shot that is modified in a way to be nearly unblockable is the epitome of mastering a skill.

And no, none of these three players are the most skilled bigs of all time. Again greatness =\ skill.

Also another problem is a lot of posters here make strange comparisons with players that have nothing to do with the topic. How many times am I going to see Dwight Howard mentioned as a way to prop up Hakeem? "Hey, Hakeem is clearly the most skilled, look at all the moves he can do that Dwight can do!". "Hakeem isn't a poor passer, look at Dwight Howard!" - ...maybe Dwight Howard was a very bad passer and not that skilled (sounds pretty accurate to me), that doesn't mean that Olajuwon is the goat in skill - there is a thing called middle ground. Again, it's just so painfully obvious who knows only a bit about these players based on reputation and highlights.


Anyway, some random posters laughing at the idea that Jokic MIGHT be more skilled than three MISMATCHES as receny bias kind of shows that people have no idea how to separate skill, athleticism and overall goodness. Saying Jokic is more skilled than Duncan is not recency bias (how the **** does that even make sense, Duncan retired two seasons ago), it doesn't mean that Jokic is BETTER than Duncan. Some posters here lack such critical thinking skills that they are essentially saying that size and athleticism makes no difference in how good a player is.

Yeah okay, the most skilled basketball players also happen to be the most athletic ones - seriously, think about that for two seconds and realize how unlikely that is.

What you wrote “Hakeem isn't a poor passer, look at Dwight Howard!" - ...maybe Dwight Howard was a very bad passer and not that skilled (sounds pretty accurate to me), that doesn't mean that Olajuwon is the goat in skill“

What I actually said “Hakeem wasn’t a great passer but he wasn’t Dwight Howard either”. In response to someone saying HE WAS terrible. But somehow my saying he wasn’t great became my saying he was the goat?

If your reading comprehension is that painfully bad, how can anyone take the rest of this ridiculousness seriously?

Apparently to many posters like this, there is the notion that you can’t be BOTH athletic and skilled. And any athletes that are both, their skill will be passed off as just another example of athleticism. That truly speaks more about their lack of understanding of the game than anything else.

[dhsilv2]

So many bad takes here so little time. Hakeem wasn’t a great passer but he wasn’t a bad one like say Dwight Howard. Orlando used the same system for D12 yet he averaged only 1.5 assists per game vs 3.5 per game for Hakeem during those years.

You are conveniently ignoring that Hakeem had the greatest footwork of any player in the history of the game. Players flock to him to this day to learn his secrets. His dream shake was a move few big men have ever had the footwork, balance and court awareness to be able to pull off.

A crossover is part of ball handling. Ball handling is a skill. Having a better, quicker crossover shows a higher level of skill. You are using a ridiculous narrative to try and prop one player up while downplaying another. It makes zero sense. George Ackles of UNLV may have been the most athletic big man I’ve ever seen...go watch him try to perform a crossover and tell me again how it isn’t a skill.

This entire argument seems to be centered around passing being the most important sign of “skill” in a player. That’s nonsense. It’s one of many. Ball handling, footwork, rebounding, passing, inside scoring, outside shooting, shot diversity, hell even shot blocking is a skill. Shot blocking takes great timing and anticipation, the biggest and most athletic dudes aren’t automatically great shot blockers. Two of the best, Hakeem and Russell, were undersized compared to their counter parts but they had the skills to be great at it.

Again I’m not a Rockets fans, I’m actually a Lakers fan. But if you don’t think Hakeem was the most skilled big man, and in the conversation for skilled player ever? Help yourself and do some research. Watch some old games.

People see an Hakeem, a Jordan, a Kobe and think they live off their “athleticism”. Problem is that there are lots of 6’9 or 6’10 athletic big men. Many never make the NBA. There are plenty of 6’6 athletic defensive specialists around the league. They aren’t a Jordan or a Kobe. People like to down play their unbelievable skills and pass it off as “athleticism”. That’s a very uninformed outlook on the game of basketball. All three of those dudes have a ridiculous amount of skill and craft to their game. It speaks more about you than them if you can’t see it.

You don't understand athletics vs skills. I get it. It's a hard concept that requires you to be smarter. If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them, but please if you don't get the topic, don't try and make statements.

No, you are just making a silly argument. Crossover not a skill? Lol. Steve Nash had a good crossover, and he wasn't a great athlete by raw definition. The fact that I even have to explain why crossover is a skill, on a basketball forum, is quite worrying.

There is a skill to it. It is however HEAVILY driven by athletics. Coordination is part of athletics. Agility, mobility, etc all athletic. If a "dream shake" or cross over were just a skill, we'd have 30 centers in the league doing what Hakeem did. We don't because he was one of the all time most freaky athletes in the game's history.

I mean seriously, you'd have to think Skip makes good points to not get this.

[Danny1616]

Hakeem was the most skilled.

Duncan was the most effective.

[70sFan]

Hakeem was the most skilled.

Duncan was the most effective.

In what aspects?
Because scoring-wise, Kareem was clearly the most effective among these 3.

[Johnny Bball]

KAJ changed the game with the way he played. I had to laugh at the poll results.

[LeMasta]

btw, i dont think either of these three are the most skilled big men. off the top of my head, Jokic is probably the most skilled.

good lord, you cant be serious

[LeMasta]

You don't understand athletics vs skills. I get it. It's a hard concept that requires you to be smarter. If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them, but please if you don't get the topic, don't try and make statements.

The lane response of a man over his head who can’t refute anything I just said. Thanks for the checkmate response.

ok kid. we can play chess if you'd like...it won't go any better than your lack of any points you made. Trust me I'd respond if you had even ONE point, you didn't.

Dude you lost the argument. Just accept it lmao

[dhsilv2]

Hakeem was the most skilled.

Duncan was the most effective.

In what aspects?
Because scoring-wise, Kareem was clearly the most effective among these 3.

Duncan mastered movement. He could take 2 steps to get where he needed to be while others would take 6. His economy of movement as he aged would something to watch, it was really amazing.

[dhsilv2]

The lane response of a man over his head who can’t refute anything I just said. Thanks for the checkmate response.

ok kid. we can play chess if you'd like...it won't go any better than your lack of any points you made. Trust me I'd respond if you had even ONE point, you didn't.

Dude you lost the argument. Just accept it lmao

An argument would require both sides to make a reasonable argument. People confusing Hakeem's atheism with skill is down right absurd in this thread.

[LeMasta]

ok kid. we can play chess if you'd like...it won't go any better than your lack of any points you made. Trust me I'd respond if you had even ONE point, you didn't.

Dude you lost the argument. Just accept it lmao

An argument would require both sides to make a reasonable argument. People confusing Hakeem's atheism with skill is down right absurd in this thread.

I think the one that's confused is you. But hey, I guess you're the intellectual one here and everyone else is wrong.

[bwgood77]

KAJ changed the game with the way he played. I had to laugh at the poll results.

Yeah, Kareem couldn't be stopped at any level. Hakeem may have rivaled him somewhat when he was at his absolute peak for a year or two, but Kareem was unstoppable his whole career, starting in high school.

[dhsilv2]

Dude you lost the argument. Just accept it lmao

An argument would require both sides to make a reasonable argument. People confusing Hakeem's atheism with skill is down right absurd in this thread.

I think the one that's confused is you. But hey, I guess you're the intellectual one here and everyone else is wrong.

Hey if you have a point, make it. I don't mind being wrong, but if you're going to try and associate a big man who could move like a guard as being the result of skills, you'll have a hell of an uphill battle to climb. I don't think that's unreasonable. Even notice how great pro athletes are at dancing? Just like with sports, movement is a trait of athleticism. Being graceful, balanced, controlled...it's all an athletic skill.

[Gooner]

You don't understand athletics vs skills. I get it. It's a hard concept that requires you to be smarter. If you have questions I'd be happy to answer them, but please if you don't get the topic, don't try and make statements.

No, you are just making a silly argument. Crossover not a skill? Lol. Steve Nash had a good crossover, and he wasn't a great athlete by raw definition. The fact that I even have to explain why crossover is a skill, on a basketball forum, is quite worrying.

There is a skill to it. It is however HEAVILY driven by athletics. Coordination is part of athletics. Agility, mobility, etc all athletic. If a "dream shake" or cross over were just a skill, we'd have 30 centers in the league doing what Hakeem did. We don't because he was one of the all time most freaky athletes in the game's history.

I mean seriously, you'd have to think Skip makes good points to not get this.

Everything is driven by athletics, we are talking about a SPORT here. It's always some combination of skill and athleticism, people focus too much on separating it. We have many athletic centers in the NBA, but none of them are even near the level of skill that Olajuwon had. We don't see JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Rudy Gobert or Andre Drummond, doing a dream shake or crossovers.

[hoosierdaddy34]

ok kid. we can play chess if you'd like...it won't go any better than your lack of any points you made. Trust me I'd respond if you had even ONE point, you didn't.

Dude you lost the argument. Just accept it lmao

An argument would require both sides to make a reasonable argument. People confusing Hakeem's atheism with skill is down right absurd in this thread.

Someone with the inability to understand that a player can be both athletic and very skilled is the absurd thing about this thread. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive.