Larry Bird/Hakeem Olajuwon vs Michael Jordan/Karl Malone

[henshao]

We had 2 threads on it in the last year or so with his stats and all those HCA loses. He had like 7 I think and he played poorly in 6 of them, dragged his team down.

I would like to read those

[gh123]

Which easy opponent would you be referring to outside of the 83 Milwaukee series? His team losing a series doesn't necessarily mean he choked either.

We had 2 threads on it in the last year or so with his stats and all those HCA loses. He had like 7 I think and he played poorly in 6 of them, dragged his team down.

You specifically said against easy opponents though. I asked which easy opponents and Bird post 89 wouldn't be relevant imo.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1764914

There was an older one as well, something about top 10 players and people were arguing how Bird's playoffs weren't consistently great like all other top 10 players'. If you're a superstar and you lose to a lower seed while having a bad statline that's a choke. Not that I mind Bird, he's in my top 10 too, but he did choke more than others.

[Cavsfansince84]

We had 2 threads on it in the last year or so with his stats and all those HCA loses. He had like 7 I think and he played poorly in 6 of them, dragged his team down.

You specifically said against easy opponents though. I asked which easy opponents and Bird post 89 wouldn't be relevant imo.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1764914

There was an older one as well, something about top 10 players and people were arguing how Bird's playoffs weren't consistently great like all other top 10 players'. If you're a superstar and you lose to a lower seed while having a bad statline that's a choke. Not that I mind Bird, he's in my top 10 too, but he did choke more than others.

I don't think that that thread constitutes some sort of unanimous opinion that Bird choked in all those series.

[gh123]

You specifically said against easy opponents though. I asked which easy opponents and Bird post 89 wouldn't be relevant imo.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1764914

There was an older one as well, something about top 10 players and people were arguing how Bird's playoffs weren't consistently great like all other top 10 players'. If you're a superstar and you lose to a lower seed while having a bad statline that's a choke. Not that I mind Bird, he's in my top 10 too, but he did choke more than others.

I don't think that that thread constitutes some sort of unanimous opinion that Bird choked in all those series.

It's not an opinion there, just numbers.

[Cavsfansince84]

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1764914

There was an older one as well, something about top 10 players and people were arguing how Bird's playoffs weren't consistently great like all other top 10 players'. If you're a superstar and you lose to a lower seed while having a bad statline that's a choke. Not that I mind Bird, he's in my top 10 too, but he did choke more than others.

I don't think that that thread constitutes some sort of unanimous opinion that Bird choked in all those series.

It's not an opinion there, just numbers.

Right but you sort of alluded to it as proving your point about him choking and its mostly just him losing to some very good teams and based on his ppg and ts%. That in itself doesn't really = him choking.

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

Hakeem/Malone gap is too big, and on top of that, the Bird/Hakeem duo is a better fit.

This, exactly.

[gh123]

I don't think that that thread constitutes some sort of unanimous opinion that Bird choked in all those series.

It's not an opinion there, just numbers.

Right but you sort of alluded to it as proving your point about him choking and its mostly just him losing to some very good teams and based on his ppg and ts%. That in itself doesn't really = him choking.

Choking is losing to a worse team while significantly underperforming. He lost with HCA and underperformed considerably compare to his RS numbers. He had some ridiculous series, but I just feel more comfortable having someone like Hakeem or may be Dirk, who choked only twice compare to Bird's 7. He's still a top10 ATG, just not as reliable as many other top20 players.

[Cavsfansince84]

Choking is losing to a worse team while significantly underperforming. He lost with HCA and underperformed considerably compare to his RS numbers. He had some ridiculous series, but I just feel more comfortable having someone like Hakeem or may be Dirk, who choked only twice compare to Bird's 7. He's still a top10 ATG, just not as reliable as many other top20 players.

Again, that thread is focused only on ppg and ts% and as I said already, 2 of those series came after 1989 when Bird was in his mid 30's and had already had a few significant injuries so really mean nothing when looking at him as a player imo. Another of them was the 85 Lakers who had 38 yr old Kareem playing at a very high level. Losing with hca doesn't really mean anything tbh. Its more about how a guy plays in general and usually with choking its more about how they are playing in 4th quarters of games. That's been the traditional way of looking at choking for as long as I've followed bb which is over 30 years or just sports in general.

[homecourtloss]

Don’t think I’ve ever seen this big of a discrepancy on the results of “Which duo would you take” especially when the “lesser” duo involves Jordan and another ATG.

Just goes to show you how great of a fit Bird and Hakeem are and the importance of dominant defense as Hakeem is the only one here who provides that. Both are scalable and portable, they rebound, defend, can score in ISO/without set up, can score off the ball, one is a great passer while the other one became passable before his prime ended, great leaders and teammates.

A good thread idea would be who are the three worst starters you can out next to ‘86 Bird and ‘94 Hakeem and compete for a title.

[AndriPerdhian93]

Bird and Hakeem ,both fit better than Jordan malone

[freethedevil]

Obviously duo 1. The team around great off ball play-maker+complimentary defender and defensive anchor+great isolation scorer fits hilariously better than the team with two dominant scorers who can't anchor elite defenses on their own. This is like roster construction 101