Kobe's statistical shortcomings

[The_Hater]

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

You’re bang on except for the false debate part. Kobe fans are a different breed that don’t use the same logic as everyone else.

[Heat4lyf]

*ignore

[ProspectPark]

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

Today I learned Leolozon knows more about basketball than Jerry West.

Watch on YouTube

[Heat4lyf]

I don't see how you'd judge a player post torn Achilles or when they were 17 and playing 15mpg as part of who they were as a player.

I wouldn't look at Jordan with the wizards if I'm trying to get a picture of how great Jordan was and when he was great

Lebrons greatness doesn't begin at his rookie year we see how good he is in his sophomore year

Doing the whole career just doesn't properly encapsulate a players greatness

I'd agree with you but problem is Jordan was awesome in his first few years statistically. And was better on the Wizards than Kobe was in his last 3 yrs........but we're talking about Jordan here which bodes well for any player if that's what were comparing you to

My point isn't to say Kobe is in the Goat convo
Just that there are better ways to evaluate how great players we're than simply looking at rookie year-end of career

If you want an idea of how great Steve nash was you wouldn't equate his early years and broken down years to his prime and find the average.

You'd look at when he was great what did he do.

Statistically the Jordan v lebron debate you look at raw stats and see Jordan only has a 3 point edge on lebron but really if you took into account only 11 years Jordan was his great self (or close to it) his averages are around 32 which is 4-5 more than lebron (even excluding his rookie year)

With two greats like. Lbj and mike it won't make as much of a difference but for a lot of other players it does and that isn't to say that
This isn't the end of the analysis but it gives a better starting point.

[Heat4lyf]

I'd agree with you but problem is Jordan was awesome in his first few years statistically. And was better on the Wizards than Kobe was in his last 3 yrs........but we're talking about Jordan here which bodes well for any player if that's what were comparing you to

My point isn't to say Kobe is in the Goat convo
Just that there are better ways to evaluate how great players we're than simply looking at rookie year-end of career

If you want an idea of how great Steve nash was you wouldn't equate his early years and broken down years to his prime and find the average.

You'd look at when he was great what did he do.

Statistically the Jordan v lebron debate you look at raw stats and see Jordan only has a 3 point edge on lebron but really if you took into account only 13 years Jordan as a bull his ppg is 31.5
If you want to exclude his sophomore year and retirement year its more like 33ppg
which is 4-6 more than lebron (even excluding his rookie year)

With two greats like. Lbj and mike it won't make as much of a difference but for a lot of other players it does. and that isn't to say that
This isn't the end of the analysis but it gives a better starting point.

[Zeitgeister]

I always enjoy people referencing Kobe's finals series against by far the two best defensive teams in NBA history.

I guess thats one way to eliminate him from a GOAT debate he was never in in the first place.

Funny thing is, Dirk shot 41% against Miami in the 2011 finals, and that's considered as one of the best performances. Shooting percentage can be very misleading, especially on a small sample size.

There's nothing misleading about Kobe's percentages in the 04 and 08 finals. He shot the ball like **** in both, and how clutch can you have been in 1-4 and 2-4 losses. Of course, no one mentions how great he was defensively in both those series, because the decisive losses render it inconsequential, and we judge mainly by offense if you underperformed enough on that end.

But when the two best defensive teams in history are selling out on making you shoot poorly, you shooting poorly shouldn't exactly be a shock to anyone. And yet it appears it still is.

I agree, Kevin Garnett was damned amazing.

[Heat4lyf]

*having issues with my phone trying to submit my post sorry for the triple post

[Heat4lyf]

.

[Heat4lyf]

[]

[triple_threat]

His first 202 games he wasn't a 20ppg scorer and last 107 games was horrendous due to injury and age so 309 games out of 1346 is pretty significant why discredit his superstar years because he was a late bloomer and because he played hobbled end of career.

That would skew the numbers significantly

Kobe his prime from 00-13 was good for 28/6/5
On above average efficiency that's Kobe. judge him accordingly

Being a late bloomer should be held against a goat candidate.

Do u think jordana wizards years or karl malones (who isnt in the goat convo) late years, Shaqs journeymen late years, Duncans twilight dont hurt their averages. The list.goes on. If you want to cherry pick kobes numbers you should recreate all stats.

Nobody uses career averages today. Most are cumulative...you're looking at stats people stopped using seriously 20 years ago.

Ok, so let's ignore kobes career fg in reg season and playoffs. You guys win.

[triple_threat]

1. 2000 nba finals - 16 PPG, 5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.4 BPG, 36% FG%, 33/90 - Come on he just played 8 min in game 2 because of injury and that hurt his stats. He Save the Lakers in game 4 with Shaq out.

2. 2004 nba finals - 22 PPG, 3 RPG, 4 APG, .6 BPG, 43/113 38% FG - This was just a low scoring ugly series but yes Kobe did not play well.

3. 2008 nba finals - 25 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5 APG, .16 BPG, 53/131 40% FG. - This was a solid series for Kobe but again it was low scoring series with Teams avg ugly 44% FG

4. Game winners in last 5 seconds of a playoff game - 8/27 - Not great but com one he have cracy many clutch moments in 4Q in playoffs.



Lets look at Kobe stats from 20-34 years old. No rookie year where he was a 18 years old playing 15 min a game and no post achilles injury( when he was never the same)
27,4 pts, 5,7 reb, 5,1 ast 46% FG 33% 3pt and 84% FT

Playoffs
27,5 pts, 5,4 reb, 5,1 ast, 45% FG 34% 3pt and 82% FT

Not bad.

Actually very good stats, but closer to vince carters tor/nj stats than GOAT numbers

[dhsilv2]

Being a late bloomer should be held against a goat candidate.

Do u think jordana wizards years or karl malones (who isnt in the goat convo) late years, Shaqs journeymen late years, Duncans twilight dont hurt their averages. The list.goes on. If you want to cherry pick kobes numbers you should recreate all stats.

Nobody uses career averages today. Most are cumulative...you're looking at stats people stopped using seriously 20 years ago.

Ok, so let's ignore kobes career fg in reg season and playoffs. You guys win.

Nobody uses FG% either.

[triple_threat]

Nobody uses career averages today. Most are cumulative...you're looking at stats people stopped using seriously 20 years ago.

Ok, so let's ignore kobes career fg in reg season and playoffs. You guys win.

Nobody uses FG% either.

his career TS% of 55 (54 in playoffs) doesn't cut it either as compared to the GOAT contenders, but keep trying. i can go all day on kobe's inferior stats.

[Funcrusher]

then you are not a rational human being..

No, i'm thinking I am.

That's because you are irrational.

Personally, I'm devastated by this assessment.

[leolozon]

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

Today I learned Leolozon knows more about basketball than Jerry West.

Watch on YouTube

Nope, you didn't learn that. That's a fallacy.

1- I can admit that West knows more about basketball than me and it still doesn't mean he's right. You think someone more knowledgeable is never wrong about anything?

2- Maybe, just maybe, West is biased and/or was playing nice for TV in Kobe's last season and/or didn't have an actual list in front of him so it wasn't an official statement. That's just so stupid to take that kind of interview as gospel when someone is live, unprepared, sitting at a Lakers' game, trying to be as nice as possible when a great player is retiring... There's no argument for Kobe as a top 5 player. Just try it.

I don't think West really thinks Kobe is a top 5 player, which is why he went down to "top 10" right after saying "top 5", he realized he was going too far.

[kevC]

Lebron, Jordan, KAJ, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Shaq, Magic, Bird all are clearly ahead of Kobe and that's already 10. Then we have players like KG, Dirk, Wade, Malone, and Robinson who are all statistically superior to Kobe but only regarded as below Kobe because of "MUH RINGZZZZ". Steph, Durant, and Harden (probably needs to win a ring) who are clearly statistically better in the current generation. Kobe is is top 15 at best.

[dhsilv2]

Ok, so let's ignore kobes career fg in reg season and playoffs. You guys win.

Nobody uses FG% either.

his career TS% of 55 (54 in playoffs) doesn't cut it either as compared to the GOAT contenders, but keep trying. i can go all day on kobe's inferior stats.

I'm pointing out how dumb your stats are. Nobody here thinks Kobe is in the GOAT discussion so why would anyone bother to argue with you?

[puja21]

I’ve pulled back the reigns on Kobe hating after it became so trendy, but the fact remains that he simply doesn’t belong in the GOAT conversation. Even if you’re a sucker for “mamba mentality”, volume scoring and championship success, he’s clearly a worse player than MJ.

A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Sure but playing with peak Shaq played a part in that. He averaged 30+ 3 seasons and 25+ 12 seasons, which is as good as anyone not named Jordan post merger.

I'm not big on ppg though, which is why Kobe is roughly #15 in my all-time rankings.

Who are the other players typically mentioned in the GOAT convo?

Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Chamberlain

Who among them didn't play with peak HOFer during their prime?

Jordan and Pippen
Russell had all the 60s Celtics HOFers (esp Jones, Cousy)
Kareem had Oscar or Magic
Magic had Kareem and Worthy
Bird and Parish/McHale/DJ, Walton, even Reggie Lewis (RIP) was a force that last year.
Chamberlain in Philly title had 3 HOfers (Cunningham, Greer, Walker) + a 6x all-star Costello. In LA of course had West/Baylor/Goodrich (all HOF)

[thebigbird]

I don't see how you'd judge a player post torn Achilles or when they were 17 and playing 15mpg as part of who they were as a player

I didn't know a player can be 17 for 4 years.

In addition, kobe played 107 games post achilles tear.

Nice try on both points.

His first 202 games he wasn't a 20ppg scorer and last 107 games was horrendous due to injury and age so 309 games out of 1346 is pretty significant why discredit his superstar years because he was a late bloomer and because he played hobbled end of career.

That would skew the numbers significantly

Kobe his prime from 00-13 was good for 28/6/5
On above average efficiency that's Kobe. judge him accordingly

You don't get to pick and choose which seasons you count when you're evaluating his career. He played, they count. The fact it took him several years to become a star is an argument against him (one of many).

[The_Hater]

A career 24.99 ppg for a volume scorer (12th all time) is another shortcoming in the GOAT context

Sure but playing with peak Shaq played a part in that. He averaged 30+ 3 seasons and 25+ 12 seasons, which is as good as anyone not named Jordan post merger.

I'm not big on ppg though, which is why Kobe is roughly #15 in my all-time rankings.

Who are the other players typically mentioned in the GOAT convo?

Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Chamberlain

Who among them didn't play with peak HOFer during their prime?

Jordan and Pippen
Russell had all the 60s Celtics HOFers (esp Jones, Cousy)
Kareem had Oscar or Magic
Magic had Kareem and Worthy
Bird and Parish/McHale/DJ, Walton, even Reggie Lewis (RIP) was a force that last year.
Chamberlain in Philly title had 3 HOfers (Cunningham, Greer, Walker) + a 6x all-star Costello. In LA of course had West/Baylor/Goodrich (all HOF)

You missed Lebron who is now a consensus top 3 all-time on most people’s lists.

While I personally hate that some people use ring counting as such a huge part of this debate, the difference with Kobe and the rest of the players on your list is that Kobe was the 2nd best player on 3 of his championship teams. So he was the Pippen, the McHale, the Cousy. The only other player on that entire list who can say the same thing is Kareem, and that’s because he played with Magic on the downside of his great career.

And this is another reason why Shaq should be rated ahead of Kobe on any GOAT list. He was better.