Kobe's statistical shortcomings

[The4thHorseman]

Nobody uses career averages today. Most are cumulative...you're looking at stats people stopped using seriously 20 years ago.

Ok, so let's ignore kobes career fg in reg season and playoffs. You guys win.

Nobody uses FG% either.

So why is the stat even kept track of anymore??


Not everyone's highly impressed with uncontested FT%

[Danny1616]

I have Kobe in my top 15 of all time but not my top 10.

Incredible player but has been a bit overrated since he retired.

[Ballerhogger]

In the context of a GOAT debate, can Kobe even be considered in light of the following statistical shortcomings:

1. 2000 nba finals - 16 PPG, 5 RPG, 4 APG, 1.4 BPG, 36% FG%, 33/90

2. 2004 nba finals - 22 PPG, 3 RPG, 4 APG, .6 BPG, 43/113 38% FG

3. 2008 nba finals - 25 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5 APG, .16 BPG, 53/131 40% FG.

4. Game winners in last 5 seconds of a playoff game - 8/27

5. Career fg - 44.7. Career high fg single season 46.7

6. Career 3fg 32.7 on 4.1 attempts

7. Excluding his rookie season, seasons of 15/3/2.5, 42.8 fg, and 20/5/4

8. 6 years in playoffs shooting 43 fg or worse

Mentionig his finals perfomaces against top 3 defensives is laughable he had 40+ game 3 in TD Garden. 2004 ok that is fair jab against another GOAT defending finals team. The one game we won he scored 33 pts. Game winners are hard to make , considering every one in the world knows your going get the ball. Kobe played in era where the 3pt shot was not as important as it is today. The 3 point shot really didn't start to take unitl 2010. His linted minutes in first few years because they coach did not like him , the coach was fired we got Phil Jackson and went on to 3 peat. 43% relative good for guard in his era of basketball. He was the only scoring post shaq before Pau came.

[Ballerhogger]

As far GOAT ranking hes 9-10 for me,

[ProspectPark]

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

Today I learned Leolozon knows more about basketball than Jerry West.

Watch on YouTube

Nope, you didn't learn that. That's a fallacy.

1- I can admit that West knows more about basketball than me and it still doesn't mean he's right. You think someone more knowledgeable is never wrong about anything?

2- Maybe, just maybe, West is biased and/or was playing nice for TV in Kobe's last season and/or didn't have an actual list in front of him so it wasn't an official statement. That's just so stupid to take that kind of interview as gospel when someone is live, unprepared, sitting at a Lakers' game, trying to be as nice as possible when a great player is retiring... There's no argument for Kobe as a top 5 player. Just try it.

I don't think West really thinks Kobe is a top 5 player, which is why he went down to "top 10" right after saying "top 5", he realized he was going too far.

Ok let me ask you something:

Do you think there is some sort of massive gap between the 10th best player all time and the 11th best player all time?

Or let me rephrase:

Do you really think you have the ability to differentiate between the 5th best player and the 10th best player all time?

[AdagioPace]

Bashing Kobe is not fun anymore. His game has already been eviscerated to a morbid degree.
PS: what's up with these tiny pic images ?

[leolozon]

Today I learned Leolozon knows more about basketball than Jerry West.

Watch on YouTube

Nope, you didn't learn that. That's a fallacy.

1- I can admit that West knows more about basketball than me and it still doesn't mean he's right. You think someone more knowledgeable is never wrong about anything?

2- Maybe, just maybe, West is biased and/or was playing nice for TV in Kobe's last season and/or didn't have an actual list in front of him so it wasn't an official statement. That's just so stupid to take that kind of interview as gospel when someone is live, unprepared, sitting at a Lakers' game, trying to be as nice as possible when a great player is retiring... There's no argument for Kobe as a top 5 player. Just try it.

I don't think West really thinks Kobe is a top 5 player, which is why he went down to "top 10" right after saying "top 5", he realized he was going too far.

Ok let me ask you something:

Do you think there is some sort of massive gap between the 10th best player all time and the 11th best player all time?

Or let me rephrase:

Do you really think you have the ability to differentiate between the 5th best player and the 10th best player all time?

I don't think a single opinion on a basketball forum matters that much in the grand scheme of things, whether it's my opinion or your opinion so we are at a standstill when it comes to that.... I'm not sure why you bring it up? I certainly do think that I have an educated opinion on the matter. The difference between 10th and 11th isn't that far, which is why I often use "range" when talking about players. I often say of Kobe that he's in betwen 9-15, with 12 being a sensible spot.

I would rank Kobe lower than most people considering I'm certainly the type who thinks advanced stats are better than total points when it comes to ranking players. I also think that championships are a team award and not an individual award (that's fact, but some people don't like facts). I also think guys like Kobe and Iverson get overrrated because of their aura, and you have to eliminate that bias. I'm honestly not even sure if Kobe is top 5 in anything other than total points.

So I would really LOVE to hear your case for Kobe as a top 5 player.

[ProspectPark]

Nope, you didn't learn that. That's a fallacy.

1- I can admit that West knows more about basketball than me and it still doesn't mean he's right. You think someone more knowledgeable is never wrong about anything?

2- Maybe, just maybe, West is biased and/or was playing nice for TV in Kobe's last season and/or didn't have an actual list in front of him so it wasn't an official statement. That's just so stupid to take that kind of interview as gospel when someone is live, unprepared, sitting at a Lakers' game, trying to be as nice as possible when a great player is retiring... There's no argument for Kobe as a top 5 player. Just try it.

I don't think West really thinks Kobe is a top 5 player, which is why he went down to "top 10" right after saying "top 5", he realized he was going too far.

Ok let me ask you something:

Do you think there is some sort of massive gap between the 10th best player all time and the 11th best player all time?

Or let me rephrase:

Do you really think you have the ability to differentiate between the 5th best player and the 10th best player all time?

I don't think a single opinion on a basketball forum matters that much in the grand scheme of things, whether it's my opinion or your opinion so we are at a standstill when it comes to that.... I'm not sure why you bring it up? I certainly do think that I have an educated opinion on the matter. The difference between 10th and 11th isn't that far, which is why I often use "range" when talking about players. I often say of Kobe that he's in betwen 9-15, with 12 being a sensible spot.

I would rank Kobe lower than most people considering I'm certainly the type of fans who thinks advanced stats are better than total points when it comes to ranking players. I also think that championships are a team award and not an individual award (that's fact, but some people don't like facts). I also think guys like Kobe and Iversion get overrrated because of their aura, and you have to eliminate that bias. I'm honestly not even sure if Kobe is top 5 in anything other than total points.

So I would really LOVE that hear your case for Kobe as a top 5 player.

Whatever dude. You said it’s crazy for anyone to have Kobe Top 5 or Top 10 (as if there’s a big difference).

I already provided Jerry West reference. There’s a players poll that had him in the Top 5. Numerous players have him Top 3. What does it matter?

Just stop with the “my opinion is more important than yours” attitude. Guarantee you couldn’t tell the difference between 20th best and 2nd best.

[dhsilv2]

Ok, so let's ignore kobes career fg in reg season and playoffs. You guys win.

Nobody uses FG% either.

So why is the stat even kept track of anymore??


Not everyone's highly impressed with uncontested FT%

.
you can't remove FT's and still use a better metric. And stats aren't used to impress people, that's what the magician at a kid's party is for. Stats are to give people the best information for the questions they wish to ask. The question of what one's field goal percentage is...it's a niche question that would not be used in this broad of a discussion.

[dhsilv2]

Do you really think you have the ability to differentiate between the 5th best player and the 10th best player all time?

That's a HUGE gap. Now criteria could possible create an overlap but once criteria is laid out the top tier guys will stand out pretty firmly. The Kareem, MJ, Lebron trio especially have really separated themselves.

[leolozon]

Ok let me ask you something:

Do you think there is some sort of massive gap between the 10th best player all time and the 11th best player all time?

Or let me rephrase:

Do you really think you have the ability to differentiate between the 5th best player and the 10th best player all time?

I don't think a single opinion on a basketball forum matters that much in the grand scheme of things, whether it's my opinion or your opinion so we are at a standstill when it comes to that.... I'm not sure why you bring it up? I certainly do think that I have an educated opinion on the matter. The difference between 10th and 11th isn't that far, which is why I often use "range" when talking about players. I often say of Kobe that he's in betwen 9-15, with 12 being a sensible spot.

I would rank Kobe lower than most people considering I'm certainly the type of fans who thinks advanced stats are better than total points when it comes to ranking players. I also think that championships are a team award and not an individual award (that's fact, but some people don't like facts). I also think guys like Kobe and Iversion get overrrated because of their aura, and you have to eliminate that bias. I'm honestly not even sure if Kobe is top 5 in anything other than total points.

So I would really LOVE that hear your case for Kobe as a top 5 player.

Whatever dude. You said it’s crazy for anyone to have Kobe Top 5 or Top 10 (as if there’s a big difference).

I already provided Jerry West reference. There’s a players poll that had him in the Top 5. Numerous players have him Top 3. What does it matter?

Just stop with the “my opinion is more important than yours” attitude. Guarantee you couldn’t tell the difference between 20th best and 2nd best.

So all that questioning just for that? What a waste of time.

-I never said that my opinion is more important than yours, I said : "I don't think a single opinion on a basketball forum matters that much in the grand scheme of things, whether it's my opinion or your opinion so we are at a standstill when it comes to that..."

When you say something like that, it appears as if you didn't understand what you read.

-I also never said it's crazy to have him top 10, I said most people don't put him there. I said it's crazy to have him top 5. But when I said "most people", I should have said anyone that has some argument on the matter. Kobe is probably a top 5 most popular player among fans and players. Any popularity contest would indeed rank him high.

-A player's poll? Are you refering to the 122 players voting on best player of all-time a couple of months ago? And 13 of them answered Kobe to give him the 3rd spot? Those 13 players thought that Kobe was a better player than Jordan... Is that really your case? That these guys didn't overrate Kobe and aren't irrational fans? You think players don't have bias?

As for top 5 for sure vs top 10 for sure, it's the difference between Lebron/Kareem and Bird/Duncan. If you can't make that difference, what are you doing on a basketball forum? The difference doesn't have to be big to be significative enough.

By the way, that's the 3rd time I ask you for your case for Kobe as a top 5 player and you can't answer anything other than "Well some players think that he's top 5."

[ProspectPark]

I don't think a single opinion on a basketball forum matters that much in the grand scheme of things, whether it's my opinion or your opinion so we are at a standstill when it comes to that.... I'm not sure why you bring it up? I certainly do think that I have an educated opinion on the matter. The difference between 10th and 11th isn't that far, which is why I often use "range" when talking about players. I often say of Kobe that he's in betwen 9-15, with 12 being a sensible spot.

I would rank Kobe lower than most people considering I'm certainly the type of fans who thinks advanced stats are better than total points when it comes to ranking players. I also think that championships are a team award and not an individual award (that's fact, but some people don't like facts). I also think guys like Kobe and Iversion get overrrated because of their aura, and you have to eliminate that bias. I'm honestly not even sure if Kobe is top 5 in anything other than total points.

So I would really LOVE that hear your case for Kobe as a top 5 player.

Whatever dude. You said it’s crazy for anyone to have Kobe Top 5 or Top 10 (as if there’s a big difference).

I already provided Jerry West reference. There’s a players poll that had him in the Top 5. Numerous players have him Top 3. What does it matter?

Just stop with the “my opinion is more important than yours” attitude. Guarantee you couldn’t tell the difference between 20th best and 2nd best.

So all that questioning just for that? What a waste of time.

-I never said that my opinion is more important than yours, I said : "I don't think a single opinion on a basketball forum matters that much in the grand scheme of things, whether it's my opinion or your opinion so we are at a standstill when it comes to that..."

When you say something like that, it appears as if you didn't understand what you read.

-I also never said it's crazy to have him top 10, I said most people don't put him there. I said it's crazy to have him top 5. But when I said "most people", I should have said anyone that has some argument on the matter. Kobe is probably a top 5 most popular player among fans and players. Any popularity contest would indeed rank him high.

-A player's poll? Are you refering to the 122 players voting on best player of all-time a couple of months ago? And 13 of them answered Kobe to give him the 3rd spot? Those 13 players thought that Kobe was a better player than Jordan... Is that really your case? That these guys didn't overrate Kobe and aren't irrational fans? You think players don't have bias?

As for top 5 for sure vs top 10 for sure, it's the difference between Lebron/Kareem and Bird/Duncan. If you can't make that difference, what are you doing on a basketball forum? The difference doesn't have to be big to be significative enough.

By the way, that's the 3rd time I ask you for your case for Kobe as a top 5 player and you can't answer anything other than "Well some players think that he's top 5."

Did I say I have Kobe Top 5? All I did was challenge your belief that anyone who has him Top 5 or 10 must be crazy. After I challenged you, you then backed down and agreed it’s not crazy since none of our opinions really matter.

Jerry West had him Top 5-10. Is he delusional? There’s literally 15 players you can have in your Top 10.

There are no parameters or objective criteria in the GOAT debate. NBA players have Kobe as high as 3rd. Why is their opinion any less valuable than your’s? Your opinion is not superior to anyone else’s.

[ProspectPark]

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

So again, according to your logic, Jerry West and actual NBA players are “crazy fans.”

[The4thHorseman]

Nobody uses FG% either.

So why is the stat even kept track of anymore??


Not everyone's highly impressed with uncontested FT%

.
you can't remove FT's and still use a better metric. And stats aren't used to impress people, that's what the magician at a kid's party is for. Stats are to give people the best information for the questions they wish to ask. The question of what one's field goal percentage is...it's a niche question that would not be used in this broad of a discussion.

You're stating that FG% isn't used any more and implying TS% is new measuring stick. Some like to see what players are shooting w/o uncontested FTA being added. I realize that not all FGA are contested but they're being taken during the flow of the game.

Kobe is one of the best cases where his fans love to use TS% rather than FG%. Same reason why they prefer to use his playoff stats and not just his Finals stats.

[Forte IV]

Who considers Kobe in a GOAT debate? It seems like a false debate. Most people don’t put him in the top 10 and anyone arguing top 5 is generally a crazy fan.

I've heard many a casual fan claim hes the GOAT. Won't say what team they root for, but I think you can guess. They obviously don't speak for everyone, and I'm not saying they do, but casual fans are very abundant.

[ProspectPark]

Kawhi picks Kobe over LeBron:

BuT yOu MuSt bE CrAzY iF yOu hAvE KoBe iN YoUr ToP 5

Watch on YouTube

[theforumblue]

people still talking about rich man's Jr smith/Swaggy P?

[Danny1616]

Kawhi picks Kobe over LeBron:

BuT yOu MuSt bE CrAzY iF yOu hAvE KoBe iN YoUr ToP 5

Watch on YouTube

Kawhi is from L.A and is a guy that has competed against Lebron during the finals.

He's not going to say Lebron.

[dhsilv2]

So why is the stat even kept track of anymore??


Not everyone's highly impressed with uncontested FT%

.
you can't remove FT's and still use a better metric. And stats aren't used to impress people, that's what the magician at a kid's party is for. Stats are to give people the best information for the questions they wish to ask. The question of what one's field goal percentage is...it's a niche question that would not be used in this broad of a discussion.

You're stating that FG% isn't used any more and implying TS% is new measuring stick. Some like to see what players are shooting w/o uncontested FTA being added. I realize that not all FGA are contested but they're being taken during the flow of the game.

Kobe is one of the best cases where his fans love to use TS% rather than FG%. Same reason why they prefer to use his playoff stats and not just his Finals stats.

eFG%, 2PT FG%, 3PT FG%...all better tools than FG% alone.

[dhsilv2]

Kawhi picks Kobe over LeBron:

BuT yOu MuSt bE CrAzY iF yOu hAvE KoBe iN YoUr ToP 5

A guy growing up in LA when Kobe was at his peak, isn't know as an nba historian, hasn't honestly spoken enough to even judge his knowledge...and that's a counter argument?

But yes anyone who takes the time to dig into the topic will pick Lebron by a large margin.