Kobe's statistical shortcomings

[ProspectPark]

He didn't just padded better but produced more impact, due to higher skills and basketball iq. He had multiple GOAT level series, sth Kobe never dreamed about, lbj had at least 5 PO runs better than Kobes best. Kobe for the half career wasn't even best player on his team, choked regularly from 90s to the end of his career, had terrible series and finals. And LeBron wasn't afraid to shot, in 2016 he proved why he's goat, had goat series against goat team and with goat clutch game. And clutch is not about shooting, but finding best way to win a game, sth Kobe never learned about, that's why he's all-time leader in missed clutch shots. No player ever lost more games than Kobe in clutch due to his moronic decisions. He's nowhere near to LeBron, face it.

What impact, leading his teams to 3-6 record in the finals? Impact is measured by winning. He ahd two super teams, there is no excuses. Kobe won 5 championships, I guess his moronic decisions worked for him.

Kobe lead "his teams" to 3 Finals appearances and went 2-1. Shaq led "his team" to 5 appearances and a 3-2 record in the Finals (including Orlando)

Why stress "LeBron's teams" but then turn around and say Kobe has 5 rings??? How could he 5 have rings when 3 of them were when it was "Shaq's teams?"

Only a complete narcissist would think like this.

When the Spurs win championships, no one talks about who led the team.
When the Lakers with Kareem and Magic win championships, no one discounts Magic or Kareem for not “leading the team”.
Warriors win championships, do you think they care who “led the team”

Sacrificing your individual game for the team is what basketball is about.

[Gooner]

Kobe lead "his teams" to 3 Finals appearances and went 2-1. Shaq led "his team" to 5 appearances and a 3-2 record in the Finals (including Orlando)

Why stress "LeBron's teams" but then turn around and say Kobe has 5 rings??? How could he 5 have rings when 3 of them were when it was "Shaq's teams?"

So you are saying that Kobe wasted all those years playing with Shaq because he wasn't considered the best player? He won 3 rings, but that doesn't mean anythign apparently. Shaq needed Kobe, he was the most dominant player, but he didn't have an all round game. He needed Kobe's ability to handle the ball, shooting and closing.

shaq really needed him in the 2000 finals vs indy when kobe only played 4 full games (8 mins in another/also missed a game). when he did play he shot 37% from the field...

He definitely needed him when he fouled out in game 4 in Indy, and Kobe closed the deal. Kobe was also injured during that series.

[The4thHorseman]

What impact, leading his teams to 3-6 record in the finals? Impact is measured by winning. He ahd two super teams, there is no excuses. Kobe won 5 championships, I guess his moronic decisions worked for him.

Kobe lead "his teams" to 3 Finals appearances and went 2-1. Shaq led "his team" to 5 appearances and a 3-2 record in the Finals (including Orlando)

Why stress "LeBron's teams" but then turn around and say Kobe has 5 rings??? How could he 5 have rings when 3 of them were when it was "Shaq's teams?"

So you are saying that Kobe wasted all those years playing with Shaq because he wasn't considered the best player? He won 3 rings, but that doesn't mean anythign apparently.Shaq needed Kobe, he was the most dominant player, but he didn't have an all round game. He needed Kobe's ability to handle the ball, shooting and closing.

What i'm saying is by your logic, Kobe has 2 rings when the Lakers were "his team."

LeBron has 3 rings when the Heat and Cavs were "his team"

By your logic again, if it's all about the player being the man on "his team", then you could say that Dwyane Wade couldn't lead "his team" to a title in 2011 and proceeded to hand over the team to James the following season.

[The4thHorseman]

What impact, leading his teams to 3-6 record in the finals? Impact is measured by winning. He ahd two super teams, there is no excuses. Kobe won 5 championships, I guess his moronic decisions worked for him.

Kobe lead "his teams" to 3 Finals appearances and went 2-1. Shaq led "his team" to 5 appearances and a 3-2 record in the Finals (including Orlando)

Why stress "LeBron's teams" but then turn around and say Kobe has 5 rings??? How could he 5 have rings when 3 of them were when it was "Shaq's teams?"

Only a complete narcissist would think like this.

When the Spurs win championships, no one talks about who led the team.
When the Lakers with Kareem and Magic win championships, no one discounts Magic or Kareem for not “leading the team”.
Warriors win championships, do you think they care who “led the team”

Sacrificing your individual game for the team is what basketball is about.

That's your boy Gooner's line of thinking and logic. Your beef is with him, cause you can't praise rings when it's not "your team" and then turn around and ridicule for losing in the Finals when it is "your team"

[Gooner]

Kobe lead "his teams" to 3 Finals appearances and went 2-1. Shaq led "his team" to 5 appearances and a 3-2 record in the Finals (including Orlando)

Why stress "LeBron's teams" but then turn around and say Kobe has 5 rings??? How could he 5 have rings when 3 of them were when it was "Shaq's teams?"

Only a complete narcissist would think like this.

When the Spurs win championships, no one talks about who led the team.
When the Lakers with Kareem and Magic win championships, no one discounts Magic or Kareem for not “leading the team”.
Warriors win championships, do you think they care who “led the team”

Sacrificing your individual game for the team is what basketball is about.

That's your boy Gooner's line of thinking and logic. Your beef is with him, cause you can't praise rings when it's not "your team" and then turn around and ridicule for losing in the Finals when it is "your team"

You got it all wrong. When I say it's "his team", it doesn't mean that it's only his team. Every player on the team shares a responsibility for a result, but the biggest responsibility is on stars. That's why LeBron's 3-6 record in the finals is very telling.

[beantownski]

So you are saying that Kobe wasted all those years playing with Shaq because he wasn't considered the best player? He won 3 rings, but that doesn't mean anythign apparently. Shaq needed Kobe, he was the most dominant player, but he didn't have an all round game. He needed Kobe's ability to handle the ball, shooting and closing.

shaq really needed him in the 2000 finals vs indy when kobe only played 4 full games (8 mins in another/also missed a game). when he did play he shot 37% from the field...

He definitely needed him when he fouled out in game 4 in Indy, and Kobe closed the deal. Kobe was also injured during that series.

he shot 12-47 after game 4. he scored 8 points in game 5. lakers were winning that series with or without him.

[beantownski]

Twice in nba finals history has the Finals MVP not shot over 50% once in any game. Yup...both times it was Kobe, 09 and 10.

[Gooner]

shaq really needed him in the 2000 finals vs indy when kobe only played 4 full games (8 mins in another/also missed a game). when he did play he shot 37% from the field...

He definitely needed him when he fouled out in game 4 in Indy, and Kobe closed the deal. Kobe was also injured during that series.

he shot 12-47 after game 4. he scored 8 points in game 5. lakers were winning that series with or without him.

I disagree, if Lakers lost game 4, and if Kobe was forced to miss the rest of the series, I believe Pacers would have got them. They lost that game 5 anyway, but they could afford that because of Kobe's heroics in game 4. That was a pivotal game.

[beantownski]

He definitely needed him when he fouled out in game 4 in Indy, and Kobe closed the deal. Kobe was also injured during that series.

he shot 12-47 after game 4. he scored 8 points in game 5. lakers were winning that series with or without him.

I disagree, if Lakers lost game 4, and if Kobe was forced to miss the rest of the series, I believe Pacers would have got them. They lost that game 5 anyway, but they could afford that because of Kobe's heroics in game 4. That was a pivotal game.

lakers won every home game that series, i don't think that would have changed.

[The4thHorseman]

Only a complete narcissist would think like this.

When the Spurs win championships, no one talks about who led the team.
When the Lakers with Kareem and Magic win championships, no one discounts Magic or Kareem for not “leading the team”.
Warriors win championships, do you think they care who “led the team”

Sacrificing your individual game for the team is what basketball is about.

That's your boy Gooner's line of thinking and logic. Your beef is with him, cause you can't praise rings when it's not "your team" and then turn around and ridicule for losing in the Finals when it is "your team"

You got it all wrong. When I say it's "his team", it doesn't mean that it's only his team. Every player on the team shares a responsibility for a result, but the biggest responsibility is on stars. That's why LeBron's 3-6 record in the finals is very telling.

Nahhh, your trolling got exposed and you're now moving the goalpost to try to save face.

[ProspectPark]

Kobe lead "his teams" to 3 Finals appearances and went 2-1. Shaq led "his team" to 5 appearances and a 3-2 record in the Finals (including Orlando)

Why stress "LeBron's teams" but then turn around and say Kobe has 5 rings??? How could he 5 have rings when 3 of them were when it was "Shaq's teams?"

Only a complete narcissist would think like this.

When the Spurs win championships, no one talks about who led the team.
When the Lakers with Kareem and Magic win championships, no one discounts Magic or Kareem for not “leading the team”.
Warriors win championships, do you think they care who “led the team”

Sacrificing your individual game for the team is what basketball is about.

That's your boy Gooner's line of thinking and logic. Your beef is with him, cause you can't praise rings when it's not "your team" and then turn around and ridicule for losing in the Finals when it is "your team"

Yes but Lebron forces his teams to play the system that benefits him more than the team. The “Lebron System”.

It doesn’t matter who his teammates are, year in year out, they play the same system, and he puts up the same stats.

Chris Bosh was one of the few bigs who could put the ball on the ground and had a really good face up game. He joins Lebron, and it’s like no forget all that, just go stand in the corner and 3-4 times a quarter I’ll throw it to you.

Lebron system results in Lebron putting up the most stats. Everyone else’s stats suffer. When the team wins, Lebron gets all the credit. When the team loses, his teammates get all the blame.

Lebron could have prime Shaq or Ben Wallace, it wouldn’t matter. On offence, the system would be the same.

Kevin Love had a season where he led the league in rebounding. He also won the 3 point contest. Just think about what a unique combination of skills that is. He also used to throw these nice outlet passes and get his team easy buckets. He joins Lebron and now we look at Kevin Love like he’s a Steve Novak or Ryan Anderson level player.

[The4thHorseman]

He definitely needed him when he fouled out in game 4 in Indy, and Kobe closed the deal. Kobe was also injured during that series.

he shot 12-47 after game 4. he scored 8 points in game 5. lakers were winning that series with or without him.

I disagree, if Lakers lost game 4, and if Kobe was forced to miss the rest of the series, I believe Pacers would have got them. They lost that game 5 anyway, but they could afford that because of Kobe's heroics in game 4. That was a pivotal game.

Even with Kobe playing, the Pacers had a great chance after game 4 cause Kobe shot a combined 12-47 in games 5 and 6 yet the Lakers were still able to overcome that.

[The4thHorseman]

Only a complete narcissist would think like this.

When the Spurs win championships, no one talks about who led the team.
When the Lakers with Kareem and Magic win championships, no one discounts Magic or Kareem for not “leading the team”.
Warriors win championships, do you think they care who “led the team”

Sacrificing your individual game for the team is what basketball is about.

That's your boy Gooner's line of thinking and logic. Your beef is with him, cause you can't praise rings when it's not "your team" and then turn around and ridicule for losing in the Finals when it is "your team"

Yes but Lebron forces his teams to play the system that benefits him more than the team. The “Lebron System”.

It doesn’t matter who his teammates are, year in year out, they play the same system, and he puts up the same stats.

Chris Bosh was one of the few bigs who could put the ball on the ground and had a really good face up game. He joins Lebron, and it’s like no forget all that, just go stand in the corner and 3-4 times a quarter I’ll throw it to you.

Lebron system results in Lebron putting up the most stats. Everyone else’s stats suffer. When the team wins, Lebron gets all the credit. When the team loses, his teammates get all the blame.

Lebron could have prime Shaq or Ben Wallace, it wouldn’t matter. On offence, the system would be the same.

Kevin Love had a season where he led the league in rebounding. He also won the 3 point contest. Just think about what a unique combination of skills that is. He also used to throw these nice outlet passes and get his team easy buckets. He joins Lebron and now we look at Kevin Love like he’s a Steve Novak or Ryan Anderson level player.

Cool story, bro.

What's that have to do with Kobe leading "his teams" to only 2 rings?

[lakerz12]

How many players have been the first or second best player on at least 3 Championship teams AND been the best player on at least 2 Championship teams?

Requires a minimum of 5 total rings.

Not LeBron. Not KD. Not Curry. Not Shaq. Not DWade. Not Hakeem. Not Dirk. Not KG. Not CP3. Etc.

Who else has done it?

In Kobe's era I think the only other person is Tim Duncan.

Before that, Michael Jordan. Remember, Scottie Pippen doesn't qualify because he was never the best player on 2 championship teams as Kobe was.

Besides MJ, you have to go back to Magic, Kareem, Russell.

So before you diss Kobe just remember he's in some VERY RARE territory when it comes to WINNING. In the past 30 years, only he, Tim Duncan, and Michael Jordan have won 5+ rings as the first and second best player on the teams.

Maybe that's why other players hold him in high regard. He just WON.

First off, what's this insane nonsense about Jordan. Not being the best player on all his teams?

Second, how many players played with a top 5 guy all time and were in the top 15 themselves? You're just underrating the absurdity of Kobe / Shaq as a combo.

It's like KD playing with prime LeBron. There's no human being alive that was better than Jordan. Not even Kareem / Magic counts.

Hmmm...Please read again. I never said Jordan wasn't the best player on all of his teams. I said Pippen was never the best player on his championship teams.

Maybe my third to last sentence was confusing but I meant the first and/or second best player on their teams.

Jordan was always the best. But most people see Tim Duncan and Kobe as being the first for some of the championships but perhaps the second best for others.

Regardless of your comments about Shaq, my point stands. Kobe is still one of the only players ever to get 5 rings - -always being the first or second best player on the team.

And Kobe got 40% of his rings without Shaq, so you can only take the Shaq argument so far.

[ProspectPark]

That's your boy Gooner's line of thinking and logic. Your beef is with him, cause you can't praise rings when it's not "your team" and then turn around and ridicule for losing in the Finals when it is "your team"

Yes but Lebron forces his teams to play the system that benefits him more than the team. The “Lebron System”.

It doesn’t matter who his teammates are, year in year out, they play the same system, and he puts up the same stats.

Chris Bosh was one of the few bigs who could put the ball on the ground and had a really good face up game. He joins Lebron, and it’s like no forget all that, just go stand in the corner and 3-4 times a quarter I’ll throw it to you.

Lebron system results in Lebron putting up the most stats. Everyone else’s stats suffer. When the team wins, Lebron gets all the credit. When the team loses, his teammates get all the blame.

Lebron could have prime Shaq or Ben Wallace, it wouldn’t matter. On offence, the system would be the same.

Kevin Love had a season where he led the league in rebounding. He also won the 3 point contest. Just think about what a unique combination of skills that is. He also used to throw these nice outlet passes and get his team easy buckets. He joins Lebron and now we look at Kevin Love like he’s a Steve Novak or Ryan Anderson level player.

Cool story, bro.

What's that have to do with Kobe leading "his teams" to only 2 rings?

showing up to training camp out of shape is great a way to lead.

[The4thHorseman]

Yes but Lebron forces his teams to play the system that benefits him more than the team. The “Lebron System”.

It doesn’t matter who his teammates are, year in year out, they play the same system, and he puts up the same stats.

Chris Bosh was one of the few bigs who could put the ball on the ground and had a really good face up game. He joins Lebron, and it’s like no forget all that, just go stand in the corner and 3-4 times a quarter I’ll throw it to you.

Lebron system results in Lebron putting up the most stats. Everyone else’s stats suffer. When the team wins, Lebron gets all the credit. When the team loses, his teammates get all the blame.

Lebron could have prime Shaq or Ben Wallace, it wouldn’t matter. On offence, the system would be the same.

Kevin Love had a season where he led the league in rebounding. He also won the 3 point contest. Just think about what a unique combination of skills that is. He also used to throw these nice outlet passes and get his team easy buckets. He joins Lebron and now we look at Kevin Love like he’s a Steve Novak or Ryan Anderson level player.

Cool story, bro.

What's that have to do with Kobe leading "his teams" to only 2 rings?

showing up to training camp out of shape is great a way to lead.

Trying to win a FMVP by freezing out the teams best player is a great way to show you're ready to lead.

[ProspectPark]

Cool story, bro.

What's that have to do with Kobe leading "his teams" to only 2 rings?

showing up to training camp out of shape is great a way to lead.

Trying to win a FMVP by freezing out the teams best player is a great way to show you're ready to lead.

It must be that simple.

[Amares]

No, he just padded his stats better. He had 2 finals series where he shot under 40%, he had that famous choke against Dallas, his Miami lost to Spurs by the record margin in NBA finals history, he got swept twice, he got outplayed by KD in the clutch two years in a row, and he was afraid to shoot in game 7 of 2016 finals, but Irving closed the deal for his team.

He didn't just padded better but produced more impact, due to higher skills and basketball iq. He had multiple GOAT level series, sth Kobe never dreamed about, lbj had at least 5 PO runs better than Kobes best. Kobe for the half career wasn't even best player on his team, choked regularly from 90s to the end of his career, had terrible series and finals. And LeBron wasn't afraid to shot, in 2016 he proved why he's goat, had goat series against goat team and with goat clutch game. And clutch is not about shooting, but finding best way to win a game, sth Kobe never learned about, that's why he's all-time leader in missed clutch shots. No player ever lost more games than Kobe in clutch due to his moronic decisions. He's nowhere near to LeBron, face it.

What impact, leading his teams to 3-6 record in the finals? Impact is measured by winning. He ahd two super teams, there is no excuses. Kobe won 5 championships, I guess his moronic decisions worked for him.

Did you ever watch basketball game?

[XxIronChainzxX]

How many players have been the first or second best player on at least 3 Championship teams AND been the best player on at least 2 Championship teams?

Requires a minimum of 5 total rings.

Not LeBron. Not KD. Not Curry. Not Shaq. Not DWade. Not Hakeem. Not Dirk. Not KG. Not CP3. Etc.

Who else has done it?

In Kobe's era I think the only other person is Tim Duncan.

Before that, Michael Jordan. Remember, Scottie Pippen doesn't qualify because he was never the best player on 2 championship teams as Kobe was.

Besides MJ, you have to go back to Magic, Kareem, Russell.

So before you diss Kobe just remember he's in some VERY RARE territory when it comes to WINNING. In the past 30 years, only he, Tim Duncan, and Michael Jordan have won 5+ rings as the first and second best player on the teams.

Maybe that's why other players hold him in high regard. He just WON.

First off, what's this insane nonsense about Jordan. Not being the best player on all his teams?

Second, how many players played with a top 5 guy all time and were in the top 15 themselves? You're just underrating the absurdity of Kobe / Shaq as a combo.

It's like KD playing with prime LeBron. There's no human being alive that was better than Jordan. Not even Kareem / Magic counts.

Hmmm...Please read again. I never said Jordan wasn't the best player on all of his teams. I said Pippen was never the best player on his championship teams.

Maybe my third to last sentence was confusing but I meant the first and/or second best player on their teams.

Jordan was always the best. But most people see Tim Duncan and Kobe as being the first for some of the championships but perhaps the second best for others.

Regardless of your comments about Shaq, my point stands. Kobe is still one of the only players ever to get 5 rings - -always being the first or second best player on the team.

And Kobe got 40% of his rings without Shaq, so you can only take the Shaq argument so far.

No one denies that Kobe was the best player on two title teams. That unlike some others who won two titles (*cough* KD *cough*) played more than 6 meaningful playoff games.

The issue is whether Kobe has achieved enough to break into the absolute peak of NBA greatness. And the answer is that he simply has not.

Pippen was the 2nd best player on 6 title teams and peaked as a top 3 guy in MVP voting. He's not a top 20 guy.

But if you're going to use 5 rings as an example as to why he's broken into the top 10, then you can't ignore the fact that he wasn't the best player on 3 of them, and likely would not have made it out of the West with an all-star center (or borderline HOF).

[lakerz12]

First off, what's this insane nonsense about Jordan. Not being the best player on all his teams?

Second, how many players played with a top 5 guy all time and were in the top 15 themselves? You're just underrating the absurdity of Kobe / Shaq as a combo.

It's like KD playing with prime LeBron. There's no human being alive that was better than Jordan. Not even Kareem / Magic counts.

Hmmm...Please read again. I never said Jordan wasn't the best player on all of his teams. I said Pippen was never the best player on his championship teams.

Maybe my third to last sentence was confusing but I meant the first and/or second best player on their teams.

Jordan was always the best. But most people see Tim Duncan and Kobe as being the first for some of the championships but perhaps the second best for others.

Regardless of your comments about Shaq, my point stands. Kobe is still one of the only players ever to get 5 rings - -always being the first or second best player on the team.

And Kobe got 40% of his rings without Shaq, so you can only take the Shaq argument so far.

No one denies that Kobe was the best player on two title teams. That unlike some others who won two titles (*cough* KD *cough*) played more than 6 meaningful playoff games.

The issue is whether Kobe has achieved enough to break into the absolute peak of NBA greatness. And the answer is that he simply has not.

Pippen was the 2nd best player on 6 title teams and peaked as a top 3 guy in MVP voting. He's not a top 20 guy.

But if you're going to use 5 rings as an example as to why he's broken into the top 10, then you can't ignore the fact that he wasn't the best player on 3 of them, and likely would not have made it out of the West with an all-star center (or borderline HOF).

I'm not sure where I would rank him. Probably 5-10.

But my post was more directed at people who called him a "chucker" and act like his greatness was just a media creation, etc.

How is that possible if he was the 1st or 2nd best player on FIVE championship teams?

It's incredibly hard to win 1 ring. Let alone 5. If Kobe's play was detrimental to the team, they'd never make it out of the first round. Say what you want about him, but obviously his style of play contributed to winning.

My point was, as people quickly dismiss him and put others ahead of him...those others haven't even won nearly as much as he did.

I think a lot of what Kobe did goes unnoticed. He was one of the smartest players to ever play the game. He brought so many intangible qualities to practice and to the team that don't show up in the box score.

His will to win, his work ethic, his attitude, his relentless pursuit of excellence, his coaching of his teammates - - none of that shows up in the box score next to his name.

But maybe it actually did have an effect on the team, as evidenced in the Championships. And it shows up when you hear other players talk about him. They have the utmost respect for him for a reason.

Just food for thought.