The Lack of Talent on this US Squad is Overstated

[jehosafats]

The premier NBA players saw what happened when PG fractured his fibula and decided playing internationally just wasn't worth the risk.

[trending]

2016 us team
butler, cousins, draymond, irving, klay thomson, lowry, derozan, george, durant.

2019 us fiba team
turner, thad young, walker, plumlee, tatum, tucker, middleton, lopez, kuzma, harris, brown, barnes, adebayo,

that's the difference.

france's best players fournier, gobert were humiliated in the nba playoffs.

fournier's team was humiliated by leonard, lowry and company. gobert's utah jazz couldn't win anything against harden's team (and harden didn't play for team usa).

[Pennebaker]

It is difficult to make indirect comparisons, but I think people are underrating the level of talent on this squad. Let's put it this way. The team has 4 core members of the Celtics team. And this is a Celtics team that is rated to finish #3 in the East and is seen as one of the top 8-10 teams in the league. Imagine swapping the Celtics rookies, Kanter, Hayward for D. Mitchell, Middleton, Turner, Barnes, etc. That would be the roided up Celtics team and the deepest team in the league. Most people would put that team as one of the 3 best teams in the NBA.

And that team is getting beaten by the likes of France, Serbia, Australia, and almost losing to Turkey. Maybe it is not that the talent is overrated but NBA teams are just overrated? That is, the sum is just not as good as the individual parts for a typical NBA team?

The Celtics arent that good though.

[melo4three]

But if you put this team in the current NBA (a.k.a. roided up version of the current Celtics), it is currently one of the best teams in the NBA, right? It has to be.

You need superstars to win in the nba

But again, this team is like the better version of the Celtics and everyone (including myself) thinks the current Celtics would win around 50 games.

Celtics will be lucky to make the playoffs


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[knicksfan974]

If Middleton got 160ish million Bogdanovic is worth twice that much which just tells you one of the glaring stupidity of NBA.

Watching Middleton play for Team USA during Group and Knockout stages of the tournament it is hard to believe he has that kind of huge max contract. He looked more like a minimum salary journey man, actually didn't look like an NBA level player at all.

[knicksfan974]

The bigs were atrocious, as good as Turner is on defense he's a pathetic rebounder for his size, and the fact the US had to use Barnes as a PF is pretty bad too.


They needed a facilitator to set the table for all the one dimensional scorers they had too.

If I'm not mistaken they decided to go with Barnes at C for some time against France, and that's a pretty dumb idea considering the size and length of the French front court.

[DWadeno3]

Our issues went far beyond that. Talent wise, one could argue our team was possibly slightly above France, Spain or Serbia. But that is debatable in my opinion given that most of these players are far from great ones in the NBA. Let's not forget that Jayson Tatum, who was a productive force upon until then, was out with an injury in the decisive games.

Other than the talent not being good enough, we also face two issues:

1) Team chemistry: Our teams are usually newly assembled before every tournament. There are some consistent members but also usually plenty of new ones. With this team is was glaringly obvious, as many players who played for us in previous tournaments declined to participate in this year's world cup. We can usually make up a lack of chemistry compared to other teams, who play together with a similar group for several tournaments and thus can build a better understanding of each other, with our overwhelming talent. With this being our E or F team, that was not possible.

2) Balance: Our squad was simply not balanced. We didn't have enough guys who could penetrate and create, we lacked consistent shooters and we lacked big men who actually do well in the pick and roll. Given that one of our main ball handlers (Walker) lives off of the P&R, that was deadly for us. Defensively, a lack of a true paint protector also hurt us given there is a defensive 3 second rule in FIBA, which makes it a lot easier to employ tactics for basket protection by simply parking a center down there.

So no, the NBA is not overrated because after all, it was NBA players who really killed us in our losses (Bogdanovic, Fournier, Gobert).

[Paddy Brosso]

The team that Popovich has at his disposal is not obviously the best he could have. There are no "1st option"-players or superstars (with the only exception of Walker, IMO). I mean, either because they were not selected for the original draft, or they were but withdrew for whatever reason, or they were injured or whatever, in the USA team there is no Curry, Lillard, Westbrook, Paul, Harden, Thompson, Beal, DeRozan, Durant, Leonard, James, George, Davis, Griffin, Aldridge, Love, Drummond, Jordan, etc. That is, from the crop of the "absolutely very best" American players, Popovich only has 1 of them. Ok, he has good players (Mitchell, Middleton, Smart...), but that is not enough to beat France, Serbia. And particularly, the lack of quality bigs has turned out to be disastrous. Neither Turner nor Lopez nor Plumlee could guard Gobert, for instance, and at the end Popovich decided to go small ball. If the USA Basketball does not assemble teams with at least 2 or 3 superstars, then they will not win any more medals, since the gap with the rest of the world is narrowing.

[GeorgeMarcus]

I doubt the Celtics wind up #3 in the East

[DAWill1128]

Cohesion and continuity are always working against team USA. This years team started Harris, Barnes, and Turner who are all above average players but not all-stars, even the bench outside Middleton.

I think the Warriors in recent years could have went in a won this. The cohesion and chemistry is the underrated aspect in the Warriors and Spurs Dynasties. Just knowing where guys are on offense and defense and a collective game plan and system is the reason team USA lost. Unlike in the NBA these guys did not have a full 82 to figure it out.

[Hellcrooner]

what all of this thing soculd mean is that some euro players in the nnba that are being played scrub minutes like say teh hernangomez bros, maybe just maybe deserve more minutes and are actually being underated by their coaches out of chauvinism.

[Greyhound]

It is difficult to make indirect comparisons, but I think people are underrating the level of talent on this squad. Let's put it this way. The team has 4 core members of the Celtics team. And this is a Celtics team that is rated to finish #3 in the East and is seen as one of the top 8-10 teams in the league. Imagine swapping the Celtics rookies, Kanter, Hayward for D. Mitchell, Middleton, Turner, Barnes, etc. That would be the roided up Celtics team and the deepest team in the league. Most people would put that team as one of the 3 best teams in the NBA.

And that team is getting beaten by the likes of France, Serbia, Australia, and almost losing to Turkey. Maybe it is not that the talent is overrated but NBA teams are just overrated? That is, the sum is just not as good as the individual parts for a typical NBA team?

Don't forget the US Select team with G leaguers that beat them I believe as well.

They had a lot of talent still, I just think it was a ridiculously constructed team terible rebounders. If Lopez wasn't making three's like he didn't he's basically useless as he rebounds like a PG. Plumblee? WTF. They cut PG Tucker and he's the exact kind of role player I think this team could have used more than Kyle Kusma. I don't even think Kusma is good but just having more talent doesn't always mean a better team or fit.

It’s Kuzma, and you realize he was cut, right?

[Side beard]

2016 us team
butler, cousins, draymond, irving, klay thomson, lowry, derozan, george, durant.

2019 us fiba team
turner, thad young, walker, plumlee, tatum, tucker, middleton, lopez, kuzma, harris, brown, barnes, adebayo,

that's the difference.

france's best players fournier, gobert were humiliated in the nba playoffs.

fournier's team was humiliated by leonard, lowry and company. gobert's utah jazz couldn't win anything against harden's team (and harden didn't play for team usa).

Humiliated.. No one expected Magic to be in PO. And going 1-4 against the powerhouse that Toronto was, was very good.

And I highly doubt Harden would be allowed to do the same **** in FIBA that he does in the NBA.

USA had the most talented roster and coaching staff out of whole FIBA competition. Coach Pop and Co. failed to guide this team to a success.

[udfa]

The lack of talent on that Team USA is understated. The soundbyte was "Team USA with NBA players lost breaking their 58 game win streak" and now the no-medal crowns the failure. When you compare this team to the 2006 team that lost, the talent gap is staggering.

2019 Team
Kemba Walker/Derrick White
Donovan Mitchell/Marcus Smart
Jayson Tatum/Joe Harris/Jaylen Brown
Harrison Barnes/Khris Middleton
Myles Turner/Brook Lopez/Mason Plumlee

2006 Team
Chris Paul/Kirk Hinrich
LeBron James/Dwyane Wade/Joe Johnson
Carmelo Anthony/Shane Battier
Chris Bosh/Antawn Jamison/Elton Brand
Dwight Howard/Brad Miller

Or compare the 2019 Team to the last team we sent to the World Cup, 2014
Stephen Curry/Derrick Rose
Kyrie Irving/Klay Thompson
James Harden/DeMar DeRozan
Ken Faried//Rudy Gay
Anthony Davis/DeMarcus Cousins/Andre Drummond/Mason Plumlee

There are 8 players on 2019 Team USA who have never been all-stars and only 1 All-NBA selection among them all which was Kemba's 3rd Team this year. 2006 Team USA would have annihilated 2019. 2014 would kill them even worse. Shame on the players for not collectively stepping up and ensuring the US wins Gold, not just for patriotic sentiment but more importantly for USA Basketball. Clearly they don't care about the World Cup, hopefully they still care about the Olympics.

Curry, Kyrie, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, Conley, Lowry, Jrue, Butler, Beal, Green, PG, AD, Draymond, Blake, Towns, Drummond, Aldridge...any two of these players could have been enough to win Gold. smh

[Nuntius]

It is definitely true that the lack of talent on this US squad is overstated. That USA team was still the most talented team in the tournament.

However, there is a catch. To win a big FIBA tournament like this one (or like the Olympics or like the EuroBasket) talent isn't enough, unless the talent difference between your team and your opponent is massive. The talent difference between this USA team and the other good teams of the tournament (like France and Serbia) wasn't massive. Was the US more talented on paper than these two? Yeah, probably. But that difference simply wasn't as massive as it was in the past. This particular US team couldn't out-talent other good teams like past US teams could.

So, what happens when the talent difference isn't massive? That's when experience kicks in. And when I say experience, I'm talking particularly about the experience of playing under FIBA rules. Team USA is naturally at a disadvantage when it comes to this aspect since all of its players play in the NBA and the NBA doesn't follow the same rules that FIBA has.

It's not only about the rules, though. It's also about the way that the FIBA game is played, coached and reffed. It has a number of differences with the NBA that go beyond the simple differences in the ruleset. Adapting to the way that the FIBA game is played is not a very easy task. That's why US teams generally need to massively out-talent their opposition. When you massively out-talent your opposition, you don't have to care about any of that. When you are four times better than your opponent, you don't have to adapt. They have to adapt to you. You can force your style of basketball on them even if the rulesets are different.

When you aren't four times better than your opponent, though, and you're only slightly better than them then you have to adapt. And that's hard. It's not something that you can consistently expect, especially out of players that are fairly young. That's why this US team didn't win. They were the most talented team in the tournament but they weren't four times better than their opposition so they weren't able to force their style of basketball on their opponents.

PS: Yes, the "four times better" part is completely arbitrary. I just used that particular number to illustrate that the difference needs to be massive.

[picko]

The US squad has far more NBA talent, good NBA talent at that, than any other squad. They have a talent advantage over everyone.

However, they are also a poorly constructed team, full of pieces that don't fit well together. No traditional PG and no effective big men. And that is why they have lost and lost and lost.

[ensiferum]

They might be better 1 by 1, but as a team... And last time I checked, basketball still was a team-game oriented. Oh yeah, and defense is also a thing.

[boomershadow]

Casual fans think if the team isn't stacked with enough superstars to just blow away everyone much though, a la GSW during their championship years, that the team is terrible.

[moistnessfiscal]

True, they just defecated themselves from all the pessimistic media that basically denounced them. To further mention, these were a bunch of FIBA Rookies, a shorter 3pt line and sans a 3sec defensive violation changes the dynamics of the game, and these Rooks weren't up to it, even Kemba, the proclaimed leader of the team, is a **** FIBA rook, no wonder players and fans were shocked to hear that they reject Melo, an obsequious Team USA servant. There has to be some sort of balance between returnees and debutants, there should be a seamless transition, and Bryan Colangelo, along with Popovic (yikes), are the ones to blame, obviously.

These folks aren't Dream Team material, but they aren't G-league scrubs either.

[Mazter]

Well, if the US lacked talent, how should we assess finalist Argentina?

Argentina had a 39 year old former NBA player and 11 undrafted players on their roster. 3 of the 11 eventually got a shot at the NBA but didn't make it. And here they are eliminating Serbia and France, who both beat the US. Unless someone wants to tell me that the NBA has a really big problem evaluating and using talent the Argentinian squad shouldn't even have made it past the first round.