#23 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#61 » by liamliam1234 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:52 pm

freethedevil wrote:I think this sums up your response quite well.


I am sure you do.

Spreadsheets were never mentioned in the quoted text, so why you would post a assertion regarding spreadsheets below a statement regarding a distinction in two types of qualitative analysis is beyond me.


If looking at backing principles and implications beyond the literal text is beyond you, that is your issue.

Yes, once I brought it up, you did acknowledge it. But without me serving as stimuli, your defensive analysis was literally: "Kawhi's man defense was really good". It astounds me that I have to remind you of basic things like help defense, and rim protection and then a few days later you're here asserting my analysis is only based on spreadsheets.


I suppose you thinking everything I post about Kawhi is solely isolated to this thread is in line with your past treatment of related posts as separate thoughts. But nevertheless, it does serve as a rather transparent excuse to delude yourself into thinking that you are at all necessary to people’s analytical process.

I also can't help but notice this thing you do, where you put a personal attack in place of a coherent response, is something you do with a wide variety of posters here. It's quite petty really.


Yes, so much pettier than the perpetual condescension and smug self-righteousness present in nearly every post you make. And complaining about coherence is rich considering the absurd level of disconnected rambling derailment you spewed forth in response to a four sentence challenge, but at this point I am accustomed to your projecting protestations.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#62 » by ardee » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:11 pm

I am actually going to change my mind here and vote Westbrook no 1. Thought about it a lot, and while on paper Paul is the more complete player at their peaks, I just asked myself whom I'd want for a single game, a single series or a single season in the given years. Given equalized supporting casts, I'd take Paul for the first and maybe the second but for the season I think it's Westbrook. Durability and (occassional) lack of assertiveness are probably Paul's biggest flaws, while peak Westbrook is a **** iron man who unleashed holy hell on every team he faced that year.

1. 2017 Westbrook: the kind of floor raising he engaged in was really historic and honestly I needed to just go back a bit and relive that season in my head. The regular season alone, with the supporting cast he had and the results the team still achieved, is comparable to the Kobe/Wade/Dirk/KG tier IMO. The Playoffs pull him back down a bit, but IMO he should be ahead of T-Mac at least.

E-Balla wrote: just needed a reminder I guess


2. 2015 Chris Paul

He has a really solid case as the best player in the league that year. Blake missed a bunch of games but he still led the Clippers to a 6.8 SRS and the best offense in the league. At least regular season wise it's a feat comparable to 2008 Kobe. 19-5-10 on 49-40-90, 60% TS, 26 PER, numbers are definitely there. The Spurs series was masterful and it truly marked his ascenion to Point God. I can't really put the Rockets loss on him at all, now when we averaged 26-10 efficiently for the last 3 games. The one missed game, well, if 2016 Curry is already in with 7 missed Playoff games, then that is a moot point here.

The way he controlled games this year was unreal, his BBIQ was ludricious.

3. 2008 Chris Paul

Basically just as good in every way as 2015 but less experienced and a slightly worse shooter. Raw numbers are utterly absurd (even better in 2009, which is IMO the 2nd best regular season for a PG after 2016 Curry, but of course he was terrible in the Playoffs). Absurd Playoffs too, 30.7 PER for a PG is just wtf.

After this I think in a rough order I'd have Barkley, Kawhi, Durant, Nash, Harden and Ewing in some order. Separating those is going to be a nightmare.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#63 » by ardee » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:17 pm

Anyone else getting kind of overwhelmed with the number of players in consideration here lmao? Honestly after the top 15 or so I am just operating on best guesses, prior to that I am confident about every player I rank above or below another but from there on out, and ESPECIALLY here now that I am off autopilot with Kobe in, even after voting I feel like I can easily justify a completely different vote.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#64 » by No-more-rings » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:10 pm

Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys or guys who are big on shooting/spacing. There’s a good number who even act like he’s not conducive to winning ball games or something or that you can’t win deep in the playoffs with him when both are proven false.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#65 » by cecilthesheep » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:11 pm

ardee wrote:Anyone else getting kind of overwhelmed with the number of players in consideration here lmao? Honestly after the top 15 or so I am just operating on best guesses, prior to that I am confident about every player I rank above or below another but from there on out, and ESPECIALLY here now that I am off autopilot with Kobe in, even after voting I feel like I can easily justify a completely different vote.

Oh, for sure. I still have a rough tier of like 5 who I consider clear contenders, but i go back and forth on which ones to pick all the time. would be even tougher if Mikan didn't take up two of my slots for the foreseeable future
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#66 » by E-Balla » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:29 pm

ardee wrote:2. 2015 Chris Paul

He has a really solid case as the best player in the league that year. Blake missed a bunch of games but he still led the Clippers to a 6.8 SRS and the best offense in the league.

They went 9-6 without Blake it's not like he missed that many games or the team performed particularly well without him.

At least regular season wise it's a feat comparable to 2008 Kobe. 19-5-10 on 49-40-90, 60% TS, 26 PER, numbers are definitely there.

How? Kobe led a +7 team with 27 games of Gasol and 35 games of Bynum as his 2 next best players at different points of the season (only one of them is an All Star too). Paul had the guy that was 3rd place in MVP voting the year prior and a team that in 2013 had a 3.9 SRS without him and in 2014 had a 7.8 SRS without him. I don't see how his results lineup to Kobe's when the Clippers without Paul were arguably better. I mean they still won a playoff game without him in 2015.

The Clippers were legit with or without Paul and they had plenty of time to prove it while having +5.8 SRS without Chris Paul when Blake played from 2012 to 2015.

The Spurs series was masterful and it truly marked his ascenion to Point God. I can't really put the Rockets loss on him at all, now when we averaged 26-10 efficiently for the last 3 games. The one missed game, well, if 2016 Curry is already in with 7 missed Playoff games, then that is a moot point here.

The way he controlled games this year was unreal, his BBIQ was ludricious.

He didn't only miss one game though. He missed 2. If you miss games and your team loses, you're to blame even if it's something you had no control of. Really the Rockets loss is all on him as far as I'm concerned. They lost to an inferior team because they had to give tons of touches to Jamal Crawford and Austin Rivers in the one close game of the series and they lost.

3. 2008 Chris Paul

Basically just as good in every way as 2015 but less experienced and a slightly worse shooter. Raw numbers are utterly absurd (even better in 2009, which is IMO the 2nd best regular season for a PG after 2016 Curry, but of course he was terrible in the Playoffs). Absurd Playoffs too, 30.7 PER for a PG is just wtf.

When you include the playoffs the 08 Hornets had the same SRS as the 15 Clippers.

Do you think Blake Griffin (minus 20 games), Deandre Jordan, JJ Reddick, and Matt Barnes are a comparable supporting cast to David West, Tyson Chandler, Mo Pete, and Peja? If not there's a clear gap in the level of CP3 I'd think. Personally I don't think the gap was on the floor, but if locker room issues effect the team play it's an issue and I think him and Blake clashing and getting hurt is why they never made a CF.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#67 » by E-Balla » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:32 pm

ardee wrote:Anyone else getting kind of overwhelmed with the number of players in consideration here lmao? Honestly after the top 15 or so I am just operating on best guesses, prior to that I am confident about every player I rank above or below another but from there on out, and ESPECIALLY here now that I am off autopilot with Kobe in, even after voting I feel like I can easily justify a completely different vote.

Read my post lol. I had 6 guys in consideration for my 3rd spot and it really came down to just taking the one with the strongest argument I saw in this project so far from a poster other than myself. :lol:
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#68 » by ardee » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:07 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys or guys who are big on shooting/spacing. There’s a good number who even act like he’s not conducive to winning ball games or something or that you can’t win deep in the playoffs with him when both are proven false.


Which is actually weird... In 2017 his RPM (9th place) was superior to both Durant (11th) and Harden's (13th). In 2016 he finished 6th.

+12 On/Off in 2016, 17 and 18 on all different qualities of teams. Plus-minus stats really like the guy, it captures his relentlessness and energy in the same way it would non box-score defense for a KG or Duncan.

He is an ATG and the only people who think he's not conducive to winning are casuals who listen to Colin Cowherd.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#69 » by E-Balla » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:12 pm

ardee wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys or guys who are big on shooting/spacing. There’s a good number who even act like he’s not conducive to winning ball games or something or that you can’t win deep in the playoffs with him when both are proven false.


Which is actually weird... In 2017 his RPM (9th place) was superior to both Durant (11th) and Harden's (13th). In 2016 he finished 6th.

+12 On/Off in 2016, 17 and 18 on all different qualities of teams. Plus-minus stats really like the guy, it captures his relentlessness and energy in the same way it would non box-score defense for a KG or Duncan.

He is an ATG and the only people who think he's not conducive to winning are casuals who listen to Colin Cowherd.

When a lot of people say "impact data" they mean "TS%". Remember that and it all makes sense.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#70 » by ardee » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:15 pm

E-Balla wrote:
ardee wrote:2. 2015 Chris Paul

He has a really solid case as the best player in the league that year. Blake missed a bunch of games but he still led the Clippers to a 6.8 SRS and the best offense in the league.

They went 9-6 without Blake it's not like he missed that many games or the team performed particularly well without him.

At least regular season wise it's a feat comparable to 2008 Kobe. 19-5-10 on 49-40-90, 60% TS, 26 PER, numbers are definitely there.

How? Kobe led a +7 team with 27 games of Gasol and 35 games of Bynum as his 2 next best players at different points of the season (only one of them is an All Star too). Paul had the guy that was 3rd place in MVP voting the year prior and a team that in 2013 had a 3.9 SRS without him and in 2014 had a 7.8 SRS without him. I don't see how his results lineup to Kobe's when the Clippers without Paul were arguably better. I mean they still won a playoff game without him in 2015.

The Clippers were legit with or without Paul and they had plenty of time to prove it while having +5.8 SRS without Chris Paul when Blake played from 2012 to 2015.

The Spurs series was masterful and it truly marked his ascenion to Point God. I can't really put the Rockets loss on him at all, now when we averaged 26-10 efficiently for the last 3 games. The one missed game, well, if 2016 Curry is already in with 7 missed Playoff games, then that is a moot point here.

The way he controlled games this year was unreal, his BBIQ was ludricious.

He didn't only miss one game though. He missed 2. If you miss games and your team loses, you're to blame even if it's something you had no control of. Really the Rockets loss is all on him as far as I'm concerned. They lost to an inferior team because they had to give tons of touches to Jamal Crawford and Austin Rivers in the one close game of the series and they lost.

3. 2008 Chris Paul

Basically just as good in every way as 2015 but less experienced and a slightly worse shooter. Raw numbers are utterly absurd (even better in 2009, which is IMO the 2nd best regular season for a PG after 2016 Curry, but of course he was terrible in the Playoffs). Absurd Playoffs too, 30.7 PER for a PG is just wtf.

When you include the playoffs the 08 Hornets had the same SRS as the 15 Clippers.

Do you think Blake Griffin (minus 20 games), Deandre Jordan, JJ Reddick, and Matt Barnes are a comparable supporting cast to David West, Tyson Chandler, Mo Pete, and Peja? If not there's a clear gap in the level of CP3 I'd think. Personally I don't think the gap was on the floor, but if locker room issues effect the team play it's an issue and I think him and Blake clashing and getting hurt is why they never made a CF.


Blake dropped off in the 2015 RS at least. Numbers down across the board (except assists), and he was just less assertive IMO. Now he picked that up in the Playoffs but it is relevant to RS. And honestly other than Blake I think that Clippers team was fairly weak, as 7 SRS teams go... DeAndre is a nice stats guy but it's pretty clear the impact never matched up with the numbers. He was basically a nice roll man, the Clippers finished 15th defensively he clearly never had the rim protection effect that you would expect him to. Reddick I really like, he got better and better as his Clippers career went but he was limited athletically, not a great playmaker, and bad defender. Barnes is a straight up average role player by this point in his career. The bench was nonexistent (Crawford is a negative at times IMO).

I will agree that you're right, overall '08 Kobe's results were more impressive because Blake is just way better than Pau or Bynum but CP3's supporting cast outside Blake is nothing to write home about, and still achieving those results in that conference is very impressive.

I'll edit my response to the rest later.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#71 » by ardee » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:16 pm

E-Balla wrote:
ardee wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys or guys who are big on shooting/spacing. There’s a good number who even act like he’s not conducive to winning ball games or something or that you can’t win deep in the playoffs with him when both are proven false.


Which is actually weird... In 2017 his RPM (9th place) was superior to both Durant (11th) and Harden's (13th). In 2016 he finished 6th.

+12 On/Off in 2016, 17 and 18 on all different qualities of teams. Plus-minus stats really like the guy, it captures his relentlessness and energy in the same way it would non box-score defense for a KG or Duncan.

He is an ATG and the only people who think he's not conducive to winning are casuals who listen to Colin Cowherd.

When a lot of people say "impact data" they mean "TS%". Remember that and it all makes sense.


And Saint Garnett gets a pass for that too...
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#72 » by No-more-rings » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:17 pm

E-Balla wrote:
ardee wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys or guys who are big on shooting/spacing. There’s a good number who even act like he’s not conducive to winning ball games or something or that you can’t win deep in the playoffs with him when both are proven false.


Which is actually weird... In 2017 his RPM (9th place) was superior to both Durant (11th) and Harden's (13th). In 2016 he finished 6th.

+12 On/Off in 2016, 17 and 18 on all different qualities of teams. Plus-minus stats really like the guy, it captures his relentlessness and energy in the same way it would non box-score defense for a KG or Duncan.

He is an ATG and the only people who think he's not conducive to winning are casuals who listen to Colin Cowherd.

When a lot of people say "impact data" they mean "TS%". Remember that and it all makes sense.

That’s not what i was referring to and i think you know that.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#73 » by E-Balla » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:56 pm

ardee wrote:[Blake dropped off in the 2015 RS at least. Numbers down across the board (except assists), and he was just less assertive IMO.

He didn't drop off, Chris Paul just limited his game. Blake averaged 28/8/4 on 61 TS% with a 122 ORTG without CP3 and 21/10/3 on 56 TS% with a 111 ORTG with CP3 in 2014 IIRC. The 22/8/5 on 55 TS% he averaged in 2015 is right in line with his usual production next to CP3 if not better.

Now he picked that up in the Playoffs but it is relevant to RS. And honestly other than Blake I think that Clippers team was fairly weak, as 7 SRS teams go... DeAndre is a nice stats guy but it's pretty clear the impact never matched up with the numbers. He was basically a nice roll man, the Clippers finished 15th defensively he clearly never had the rim protection effect that you would expect him to. Reddick I really like, he got better and better as his Clippers career went but he was limited athletically, not a great playmaker, and bad defender. Barnes is a straight up average role player by this point in his career. The bench was nonexistent (Crawford is a negative at times IMO).

DeAndre's offensive impact always was ahead if his defensive impact. He's the most efficient player ever from the field by a distance, even without CP3, he's one of the best ORBs ever too. Then Blake was top 5ish whenever Chris Paul was hurt and arguably better than Chris Paul. There's a reason they played like a 50 win team without Paul through all those games he missed.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#74 » by freethedevil » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:36 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys ore.

Impact data loves westbrook, what are you talking about
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#75 » by No-more-rings » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:52 pm

freethedevil wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys ore.

Impact data loves westbrook, what are you talking about

I meant RAPM mostly. To my knowledge he didn’t fare super great by it in 2017.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#76 » by trex_8063 » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:53 pm

This one's gone a bit off the rails. One poster has been given a bit of a time-out for his contribution to the derailment. Sorry it's come to this, but let's see if we can't get this back on track. Everyone do his/her best to stay [relatively] on-topic, and to be respectful and constructive. If you find that you simply can't stand another poster, or he's making you angry, just disengage and ignore please. Thanks.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#77 » by No-more-rings » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:54 pm

ardee wrote:.

What’s the case for Paul over Curry in 2015?
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#78 » by Clyde Frazier » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:35 pm

Ballot #1 - 90 Ewing
Ballot #2 - 93 Barkley
Ballot #3 - 17 Westbrook

- - - - -

Ballot #1 - 90 Ewing

Lending some support for Ewing here. Being at his peak athletically in 1990, Ewing was a workhorse on both ends of the floor. His combination of volume scoring on great efficiency and ability to anchor a defense should be worthy of this range. Led the 13th ranked SRS knicks to a 1st round upset of the 8th ranked SRS celtics in the first round. Would end up being eliminated by the eventual champion pistons, put still put up a valiant effort in the series, with 27.2 PPG. 9.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.2 BPG on 56% TS. Pistons also ranked 2nd in defense that season. If only Riley got his hands on Ewing a few years earlier...

Ballot #2 - 93 Barkley

Totally see a case for 90 being his peak, but I like Barkley’s more refined game in PHX where he was still an excellent athlete (and in amazing shape), but was a little less reckless. Of course he had more talent around him, but I think that slightly toned down version helped them get as far as they did in the postseason. I’m not quite sure 90 barkley gets them there.

93 WCF game 7 against the sonics - 44 PTS / 22 REB / 1 AST / 1 STL / 1 BLK / 74.1% TS / 167 ORTG :o



Ballot #3 - 17 Westbrook

Really struggled to come up with a clear 3rd vote, but I want to get a vote in so I'm ok going with Westbrook here. The first triple double season was very impressive, and he backed it up with great advanced box score and impact metrics. As far as the playoffs, beyond oladipo they really didn't have much supporting talent and lost to the 3rd ranked SRS rockets. I don't fully subscribe to "Westbrook was holding oladipo back" because he wouldn't be the first player to take some time to break out as a star. Was very close to going with 19 Kawhi here, but as a durability guy I can't get past the 60 games played in the regular season yet.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#79 » by trex_8063 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:19 am

1st ballot - '14 Kevin Durant - League-leading 32 ppg on ridiculous +9.4% rTS shooting efficiency, while also emerging as a pretty good playmaker this year. Totally respectable turnover economy as he added 5.5 apg to his 32 ppg, and was [imo] beginning to be a fair/passable defender by this point, and solid SF rebounder as always. Was 1st in the league in PER, 1st in WS/48 and WS, 2nd in BPM and 1st in VORP, while also being 3rd in RAPM iirc [playing considerably more minutes than the guy in 2nd].

People rag on his playoff performance this year, though as has been noted in many prior spots, I'm not as playoff-centric as many appear to be. But it's worth touching on that he faced good-to-elite team defenses AND good-to-elite individual defenders every step of the way in the playoffs. He nonetheless averaged 29.6 ppg [again: league-leading] on +2.9% rTS in the playoffs, though his playmaking and turnovers did worsen a little. Breaking down the good defenses I'm referring to....

*1st round they faced the 7th-rated [-2.1 rDRTG] Grizzlies, with Memphis platooning Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince (+/- a little James Johnson et al at times) on Durant. Durant averaged 29.9 ppg @ +0.2 rTS%, though 4.0 topg (to 3.4 apg; though also 9.6 rpg). He still averaged a team-best 19.7 GameScore and a +4 net rating facing that defensive core.

**2nd round they faced a 9th-rated [-1.9 rDRTG] Clippers team, who had Matt Barnes (plus some Jared Dudley) to primarily cover Durant. Durant averaged 33.2 ppg @ +7.9% rTS with 5.3 apg (4.0 topg; and again 9.5 rpg); averaged a team-best 24.7 GameScore, as well as a +9 net rating.

***3rd round they faced the eventual champ Spurs team [whom they took to 6 games, one further than the Heat managed in the finals]. This had been the 3rd-rated [-4.3 rDRTG] defense during the rs, and of course had the ultimate stopper at SF: a still defensively-applied Kawhi Leonard. A "shut down" Durant was still averaging 25.8 ppg @ +2.9% rTS with 3.2 apg and 3.3 topg [Leonard, fwiw, averaged 11.8 ppg @ -5.4% rTS].

And we know Durant is just about as portable as volume-scorers come. fwiw, I actually somewhat like '17 Durant better (all the good things that come with the '14 version, but better defensively [at least with his slightly reduced minutes and offensive role]). However, I think those things might have been made possible by the aforementioned reduced offensive role and minutes; and then there's the 20 missed games to consider. Still, it's in the running for my 3rd ballot.


2nd ballot - '15 Chris Paul - Wicked efficiency (both in terms of shooting and turnover economy) while leading a top-tier offense, and also being one of the best defensive PG's in the game. Played brilliantly in the playoffs, too, the only blemished being that he missed two playoff games [and did that cost them something?]; which was ironic, given he didn't miss a single game in the long rs.
I could see going for '08, but I just feel his defense was better in the later portions of his career, and his on-court impact has perhaps never looked better than in '15.


3rd ballot - '17 Kevin Durant - I think this version is just as good offensively in all ways as the '14 version....his usage simply went down a bit for being on a more talented squad (though note his efficiency [both shooting and turnover economy] improve for having life a little "easier", and obv his playoff performance appears better). Meanwhile, I think this was the best defense he's played in his career. tbh, I'd probably put his overall quality as a player in '17 marginally ahead of '14; the only nagging factor is the 20 missed games.


EDIT: fwiw, I'd also be totally content with Charles Barkley (I'd probably go with '90 as his peak) or Patrick Ewing (also like '90, though one poster has made a compelling case for '94 [which I'd always had as his 2nd-best year anyway]) at this spot.

Really, I'd not be discontented with any one of Karl Malone, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Dwight Howard [though, as they're at the same position, I feel as though Ewing needs to go first; but just saying I think peak Dwight should get a look soon], Anthony Davis, Elgin Baylor [I may need to start arguing his case before too long], Steve Nash, or Kawhi Leonard either. Or even Bob McAdoo [who I think received at least one vote here]; I'd certainly not throw my hands up in disgust were he to get in soon.

I'm slightly further away on Rick Barry; tbh, I always viewed him closer to a Clyde Drexler/George Gervin level player than to some of the others we're talking about.
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Re: #23 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#80 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:18 am

No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Glad to see Westbrook getting multiple votes already, he’s not real popular with the “impact data” guys ore.

Impact data loves westbrook, what are you talking about

I meant RAPM mostly. To my knowledge he didn’t fare super great by it in 2017.

I mean rapm is trash over sinle season samples...

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