Is Mitchell the 3rd or 4th best player in Jazz?

[drosereturn]

Mitchell has been very overrated to the point he is widely viewed as a number 1 option on a top 3 team.
Has all the tools like Tatum but the major issue is his efficiency has been plummeting and had to make up for volume scoring like Lavine, Booker.
If he wants to be Kobe, he needs to avg at least 58% TS with elite defense.

[KqWIN]

Mitchell has been very overrated to the point he is widely viewed as a number 1 option on a top 3 team.
Has all the tools like Tatum but the major issue is his efficiency has been plummeting and had to make up for volume scoring like Lavine, Booker.
If he wants to be Kobe, he needs to avg at least 58% TS with elite defense.

Here's the thing. If he was 58% with elite defense, he would be Kobe or better. We're talking about a top 5ish player at that point. Who is saying that Mitchell is that good? Mitchell is inefficient, everybody knows that. It's not like this is something that goes under the radar.

[Woody Allen]

Mitchell is tied for the 2nd but the thing is he is extremely far from being elite. He's just mislabeled.

[wutevahung]

Gobert is not a top 15 player, definitely not top 10, because he needs to be served by others on offense. His defensive impact is huge, but basketball is game of creation. He can't create. Mitchell is a border line top 20 player for me. I don't make those lists, but that's the category where I would put him.

Jeff Teague can also create, is he a better player than Gobert?

A better player makes bigger impact, and Rudy makes much bigger impact than Mitchell.

2018-2019 regular season
Donovan Mitchell- PER 17.2, 0.537 TS%, 5.0 WS, 0.6 BPM, 1.7 VORP. 1.3 OWS, 0.8 OBPM
Rudy Gobert- PER 24.6, 0.682 TS%, 14.4 WS, 7.0 BPM, 5.9 VORP. 8.7 OWS, 2.0 OBPM

2018-2019 Play off
Donovan Mitchell- PER 6.8, 0.423 TS%, -0.5 WS, -6.0 BPM, -.02 VORP, -06 OWS, -5.8 OBPM
Rudy Gobert- PER 20.5, 0.665 TS%, 0.6WS, 6.8 BPM, 0.3 VORP, 0.4 OW, -0.7 OBPM

Rudy dominates Donovan in every single metrics. TS% is not that important in this comparison since it's in a concept of the same team, so we can disregard that, and we can even disregard the Mitchell's abysmal play off performance since it's a very small sample size, but even offensively, Mitchell is not making a bigger impact on his team than Gobert. Not saying Mitchell is not a better offensive player, because creation is important, and someone has to be able to absorb the shots, but if you think Mitchell is a better player just because he creates then you should reevaluate the way you think about basketball, because evidently, their impacts aren't even close.

Rudy is an underrated offensive player. He was #7 in offensive rebound % last year, and he has good hands to catch passes in PNR, and is able to finish really well.

Jeff Teague can't be a first option on a playoff team, Mitchell was a first option on a team that made the second round in the west-as a rookie. If you take out Mitchell from that team, would Gobert have the same impact? He needs a scorer with him so he can do what he does defensively, and as a roller/offensive rebounder.

Gobert makes most of his impact on defense, so sure, if you take out Mitchell from the team, and let's not count Gobert's offensive impact at all, he is still a much more impactful player than DM has shown so far.

If you have already determined in your mind that DM is the better player regardless how much that contradicts ALL datas available, there is really no point to continue. There is simply nothing suggests that DM is even close to Rudy in terms of impacts on the game, and facts shouldn't be treated equal to opinions.

and for your information, just in 2017-2018 Jeff Teague (not even the peak Jeff Teague who posted 20.6 PER) posted comparable stats to 2018-2019 Mitchell. I still think Mitchell is the better player, but this tells you how far off Mitchell is from the top 20. His impact is closer to 18 Jeff Teague than to an ALL NBA PLAYER like Rudy. Also, if Jeff Teague is on the Jazz team, he would be the #1 first option because Jazz has no one better than him off dribble on the roster, and they probably would have made the play off regardless.

2017-2018 Regular Season
Jeff Teague- 16.4 PER, 0.553 TS%, 4.9 WS, 0.2 BPM, 1.3 VORP, 1.7 OWS, 1.5 OBPM
and again

2018-2019 regular season
Donovan Mitchell- PER 17.2, 0.537 TS%, 5.0 WS, 0.6 BPM, 1.7 VORP. 1.3 OWS, 0.8 OBPM

DM is the #1 option on offense not because of his capability, but lack of option from Jazz.

[SwatLakeCity527]

For the entire second half the season, he was scoring 26 points a game on great efficiency.

According to the responses on here, if he even gets close to that this year, he'll be overachieving.

I think people just like to hate on him because of how much attention he gets. Even if he did get more efficient, I still think he won't shake that perception among realgmers because of it.

[wutevahung]

For the entire second half the season, he was scoring 26 points a game on great efficiency.

According to the responses on here, if he even gets close to that this year, he'll be overachieving.

I think people just like to hate on him because of how much attention he gets. Even if he did get more efficient, I still think he won't shake that perception among realgmers because of it.

Wait what? He posted an inefficient 2018-2019 season, especially during play off. why is calling a spade a spade hating?

This is some kind of weird self preserving attitude. Everyone acknowledges DM is a young player with good attitude and potential, but let’s not act like the criticism is not legit. No one is hating on him, he is not getting that much attention. If he becomes efficient, then no one would criticizes that aspect of his game. Go look up KD’s efficiency # in the first two seasons, it’d abysmal. Is anyone still calling KD inefficient now because of his first two years?

[SwatLakeCity527]

For the entire second half the season, he was scoring 26 points a game on great efficiency.

According to the responses on here, if he even gets close to that this year, he'll be overachieving.

I think people just like to hate on him because of how much attention he gets. Even if he did get more efficient, I still think he won't shake that perception among realgmers because of it.

Wait what? He posted an inefficient 2018-2019 season, especially during play off. why is calling a spade a spade hating?

This is some kind of weird self preserving attitude. Everyone acknowledges DM is a young player with good attitude and potential, but let’s not act like the criticism is not legit. No one is hating on him, he is not getting that much attention. If he becomes efficient, then no one would criticizes that aspect of his game. Go look up KD’s efficiency # in the first two seasons, it’d abysmal. Is anyone still calling KD inefficient now because of his first two years?

Read what I wrote about the second half of the season - I am calling a spade a spade. I think criticism is warranted, but not as much as people give him.

[SkyHook]

For the entire second half the season, he was scoring 26 points a game on great efficiency.

According to the responses on here, if he even gets close to that this year, he'll be overachieving.

I think people just like to hate on him because of how much attention he gets. Even if he did get more efficient, I still think he won't shake that perception among realgmers because of it.

Wait what? He posted an inefficient 2018-2019 season, especially during play off. why is calling a spade a spade hating?

This is some kind of weird self preserving attitude. Everyone acknowledges DM is a young player with good attitude and potential, but let’s not act like the criticism is not legit. No one is hating on him, he is not getting that much attention. If he becomes efficient, then no one would criticizes that aspect of his game. Go look up KD’s efficiency # in the first two seasons, it’d abysmal. Is anyone still calling KD inefficient now because of his first two years?

Read what I wrote about the second half of the season - I am calling a spade a spade. I think criticism is warranted, but not as much as people give him.

It really was a tale of two seasons for Mitchell. Really rough start to the season following an ineffective summer as a result of the foot injury in the previous playoffs. I think that the foot issue may have been lingering into November, maybe December.

Here’s the comparison of his season from up to 12/31 and from 1/1 onward...

3P% from .293 to .414
TS% from .502 to .559
PPG from 20.1 to 26.5
TRB from 3.5 to 4.5
AST from 3.4 to 4.8
Got to the line a lot more; his free throw attempts were up 50% from 4.0/game to 6.0/game.

He was clearly a different—better—player at the end of the season than at the beginning. But there’s no denying his struggles in the playoffs. The Rockets’ defensive schemes were particularly effective, especially with inability of Mitchell’s backcourt mates to hit from distance... or anywhere.

[wutevahung]

For the entire second half the season, he was scoring 26 points a game on great efficiency.

According to the responses on here, if he even gets close to that this year, he'll be overachieving.

I think people just like to hate on him because of how much attention he gets. Even if he did get more efficient, I still think he won't shake that perception among realgmers because of it.

Wait what? He posted an inefficient 2018-2019 season, especially during play off. why is calling a spade a spade hating?

This is some kind of weird self preserving attitude. Everyone acknowledges DM is a young player with good attitude and potential, but let’s not act like the criticism is not legit. No one is hating on him, he is not getting that much attention. If he becomes efficient, then no one would criticizes that aspect of his game. Go look up KD’s efficiency # in the first two seasons, it’d abysmal. Is anyone still calling KD inefficient now because of his first two years?

Read what I wrote about the second half of the season - I am calling a spade a spade. I think criticism is warranted, but not as much as people give him.

I don’t think giving him a pass for half of a season is calling a spade a spade. I don’t know his # for 2nd half of the season, but why does it matter? We are talking about season as a whole, half of a season is not big enough of a sample, and I frankly think even a whole season isn’t big enough but that’s all we got for DM.

And is play off not included in “2nd half of the season”? He was straight up abysmal.

[Pennebaker]

Mitchell and Gobert are tied for 1st best player on the Jazz.

[babyjax13]

Wait what? He posted an inefficient 2018-2019 season, especially during play off. why is calling a spade a spade hating?

This is some kind of weird self preserving attitude. Everyone acknowledges DM is a young player with good attitude and potential, but let’s not act like the criticism is not legit. No one is hating on him, he is not getting that much attention. If he becomes efficient, then no one would criticizes that aspect of his game. Go look up KD’s efficiency # in the first two seasons, it’d abysmal. Is anyone still calling KD inefficient now because of his first two years?

Read what I wrote about the second half of the season - I am calling a spade a spade. I think criticism is warranted, but not as much as people give him.

I don’t think giving him a pass for half of a season is calling a spade a spade. I don’t know his # for 2nd half of the season, but why does it matter? We are talking about season as a whole, half of a season is not big enough of a sample, and I frankly think even a whole season isn’t big enough but that’s all we got for DM.

And is play off not included in “2nd half of the season”? He was straight up abysmal.

Well, he was playing through injury the first part of the season, and when he said he felt better was right around when he started playing better. His first 2.5 months - statistically - are very different from the rest of the regular season. We will see next year, but I think his numbers were a bit deflated from injury.

[wutevahung]

Read what I wrote about the second half of the season - I am calling a spade a spade. I think criticism is warranted, but not as much as people give him.

I don’t think giving him a pass for half of a season is calling a spade a spade. I don’t know his # for 2nd half of the season, but why does it matter? We are talking about season as a whole, half of a season is not big enough of a sample, and I frankly think even a whole season isn’t big enough but that’s all we got for DM.

And is play off not included in “2nd half of the season”? He was straight up abysmal.

Well, he was playing through injury the first part of the season, and when he said he felt better was right around when he started playing better. His first 2.5 months - statistically - are very different from the rest of the regular season. We will see next year, but I think his numbers were a bit deflated from injury.

Ya I know, my frustration was with the poster saying people calling Mitch inefficient is hating.

I like Mitchell and Utah, as long as they don’t play my Lakers this season I am rooting for them to win against almost everyone else. Good to see a team that builds from ground up and doesn’t rely on signing and trading for superstars.

[Mr. Crowley]

He's clearly behind Rudy and Mike.

Conley still to this day is really underrated.

[Bruteque]

Do people generally consider Mitchell a future star?
Asking seriously, I dont know whats the consensus around him

That depends on what you mean by "future star."

Mitchell still has a lot of room to improve since he is quite raw on many basketball skills, but one simply cannot teach his ability to drive by players and get to the basket, which goes beyond being an elite athlete. That's the difference between Mitchell and somebody like, say Tatum, who has skills, athleticism, and length, but nothing that goes above and beyond.

If by "future star" you mean that he's on a guaranteed trajectory to become a star, then no. He's not there yet and there is no guarantee that he will pick up the skills he needs. The thing is, though, all the skills he needs are skills that one can pick up. If he did pick up these perfectly acquirable skills, however, then he would be more than a star. He would be a superstar, a first option on a legitimate contender.

That, not what he is now, is why people are high on him.

[Chi Dynasty12]

The disrespect, smh

[Gooner]

Jeff Teague can also create, is he a better player than Gobert?

A better player makes bigger impact, and Rudy makes much bigger impact than Mitchell.

2018-2019 regular season
Donovan Mitchell- PER 17.2, 0.537 TS%, 5.0 WS, 0.6 BPM, 1.7 VORP. 1.3 OWS, 0.8 OBPM
Rudy Gobert- PER 24.6, 0.682 TS%, 14.4 WS, 7.0 BPM, 5.9 VORP. 8.7 OWS, 2.0 OBPM

2018-2019 Play off
Donovan Mitchell- PER 6.8, 0.423 TS%, -0.5 WS, -6.0 BPM, -.02 VORP, -06 OWS, -5.8 OBPM
Rudy Gobert- PER 20.5, 0.665 TS%, 0.6WS, 6.8 BPM, 0.3 VORP, 0.4 OW, -0.7 OBPM

Rudy dominates Donovan in every single metrics. TS% is not that important in this comparison since it's in a concept of the same team, so we can disregard that, and we can even disregard the Mitchell's abysmal play off performance since it's a very small sample size, but even offensively, Mitchell is not making a bigger impact on his team than Gobert. Not saying Mitchell is not a better offensive player, because creation is important, and someone has to be able to absorb the shots, but if you think Mitchell is a better player just because he creates then you should reevaluate the way you think about basketball, because evidently, their impacts aren't even close.

Rudy is an underrated offensive player. He was #7 in offensive rebound % last year, and he has good hands to catch passes in PNR, and is able to finish really well.

Jeff Teague can't be a first option on a playoff team, Mitchell was a first option on a team that made the second round in the west-as a rookie. If you take out Mitchell from that team, would Gobert have the same impact? He needs a scorer with him so he can do what he does defensively, and as a roller/offensive rebounder.

Gobert makes most of his impact on defense, so sure, if you take out Mitchell from the team, and let's not count Gobert's offensive impact at all, he is still a much more impactful player than DM has shown so far.

If you have already determined in your mind that DM is the better player regardless how much that contradicts ALL datas available, there is really no point to continue. There is simply nothing suggests that DM is even close to Rudy in terms of impacts on the game, and facts shouldn't be treated equal to opinions.

and for your information, just in 2017-2018 Jeff Teague (not even the peak Jeff Teague who posted 20.6 PER) posted comparable stats to 2018-2019 Mitchell. I still think Mitchell is the better player, but this tells you how far off Mitchell is from the top 20. His impact is closer to 18 Jeff Teague than to an ALL NBA PLAYER like Rudy. Also, if Jeff Teague is on the Jazz team, he would be the #1 first option because Jazz has no one better than him off dribble on the roster, and they probably would have made the play off regardless.

2017-2018 Regular Season
Jeff Teague- 16.4 PER, 0.553 TS%, 4.9 WS, 0.2 BPM, 1.3 VORP, 1.7 OWS, 1.5 OBPM
and again

2018-2019 regular season
Donovan Mitchell- PER 17.2, 0.537 TS%, 5.0 WS, 0.6 BPM, 1.7 VORP. 1.3 OWS, 0.8 OBPM

DM is the #1 option on offense not because of his capability, but lack of option from Jazz.

Jonas Valanciunas was 11th in PER last season, and Boban was 15th. Ahead of guys like Lillard, Goerge, Butler, Westbrook and Mitchell himself.

BPM-Larry Nance, Mason Plumlee and Dwight Powell are ahead of Mike Conley, Pascal Siakam, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Kemba Walker and Bradley Beal.

VORP-Vucevic is ahead of LeBron James, Paul George, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard. Mason Plumlee ahead of Aldridge, DeRozan, Paul, Draymond Green, DeAaron Fox, Danilo Gallinari and Chris Middleton.

TS%-DJ Augustin at 22, Chris Paul 104th place. Does the same criteria apply here as it does to your Mitchell-Teague comparison.

WS-Clint Capela and Andre Drummond ahead of Curry, Leonard, Irving, Embiid, Butler, LeBron and Westbrook.

OWS-Once again, Capela at 6th place. Dwight Powell ahead of Conley, Butler, Embiid and LeBron.

OBPM-Dwight Powell ahead of Butler, Westbrook, Lowry, McCollum, Horford and Gobert. Davis Bertans above Ben Simmons, Bojan Bogdanovic, LaMarcus Aldridge, Klay Thompson, Donovan Mitchell and Khris Middleton.

Those stats you posted can be very misleading.

[wutevahung]

Jeff Teague can't be a first option on a playoff team, Mitchell was a first option on a team that made the second round in the west-as a rookie. If you take out Mitchell from that team, would Gobert have the same impact? He needs a scorer with him so he can do what he does defensively, and as a roller/offensive rebounder.

Gobert makes most of his impact on defense, so sure, if you take out Mitchell from the team, and let's not count Gobert's offensive impact at all, he is still a much more impactful player than DM has shown so far.

If you have already determined in your mind that DM is the better player regardless how much that contradicts ALL datas available, there is really no point to continue. There is simply nothing suggests that DM is even close to Rudy in terms of impacts on the game, and facts shouldn't be treated equal to opinions.

and for your information, just in 2017-2018 Jeff Teague (not even the peak Jeff Teague who posted 20.6 PER) posted comparable stats to 2018-2019 Mitchell. I still think Mitchell is the better player, but this tells you how far off Mitchell is from the top 20. His impact is closer to 18 Jeff Teague than to an ALL NBA PLAYER like Rudy. Also, if Jeff Teague is on the Jazz team, he would be the #1 first option because Jazz has no one better than him off dribble on the roster, and they probably would have made the play off regardless.

2017-2018 Regular Season
Jeff Teague- 16.4 PER, 0.553 TS%, 4.9 WS, 0.2 BPM, 1.3 VORP, 1.7 OWS, 1.5 OBPM
and again

2018-2019 regular season
Donovan Mitchell- PER 17.2, 0.537 TS%, 5.0 WS, 0.6 BPM, 1.7 VORP. 1.3 OWS, 0.8 OBPM

DM is the #1 option on offense not because of his capability, but lack of option from Jazz.

Jonas Valanciunas was 11th in PER last season, and Boban was 15th. Ahead of guys like Lillard, Goerge, Butler, Westbrook and Mitchell himself.

BPM-Larry Nance, Mason Plumlee and Dwight Powell are ahead of Mike Conley, Pascal Siakam, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Kemba Walker and Bradley Beal.

VORP-Vucevic is ahead of LeBron James, Paul George, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant and Kawhi Leonard. Mason Plumlee ahead of Aldridge, DeRozan, Paul, Draymond Green, DeAaron Fox, Danilo Gallinari and Chris Middleton.

TS%-DJ Augustin at 22, Chris Paul 104th place. Does the same criteria apply here as it does to your Mitchell-Teague comparison.

WS-Clint Capela and Andre Drummond ahead of Curry, Leonard, Irving, Embiid, Butler, LeBron and Westbrook.

OWS-Once again, Capela at 6th place. Dwight Powell ahead of Conley, Butler, Embiid and LeBron.

OBPM-Dwight Powell ahead of Butler, Westbrook, Lowry, McCollum, Horford and Gobert. Davis Bertans above Ben Simmons, Bojan Bogdanovic, LaMarcus Aldridge, Klay Thompson, Donovan Mitchell and Khris Middleton.

Those stats you posted can be very misleading.

Stats can be very misleading if you don’t know what you are looking, . None of these stats are supposed to be painting the whole picture, but if you look at them in combination, then add minutes restrictions and apply common sense such not to compare bench guys who play 5-10 minutes to stars with 35 mins a night, you get more of a whole picture.

Essentially all your argument is Donovan Mitchel can dribble cross over and pull up for jump shot so therefore he is better than Gobert, and advanced stats are bs so they don’t show DM’s impact, and nothing is going to change your mind. I said it in my first post, if you think DM was a more impactful player than Gobert last season, you need to re-evaluate the way you think about basketball. No one has ever said Havlicek is the best player on the Celtics because Russell can’t create from the perimeter.

[ShotCreator]

Ingles is probably better. Makes damn near any team better than Mitchell would. Or at least the same impact.

Gobert is out of the question. Probably Conley as well.

[Pelly24]

I think Conley, if fully healthy and motivated, etc., is closer to being a top 20 player than a top 25 or so he was ranked at last year. I see Mitchelll more toward the top 25 range, and that's about where he'll stay until he improves his jumper from all areas of the court, or he drastically improves his freethrow rate or increases his passing to point guard level.

Still, this is a very dangerous team. Gobert is as good a defender as their is, Conley is an amazing floor general and a very good scorer and reliable defender. Mitchell is a guy that can go off against any team and has the athleticism and willpower to put up 30 shots in a game and get hard-earned buckets in tough situations if need be. So one All-NBA/top 15 guy and two all-stars is a very good team.

[Cal And Jay]

Im a big fan of Mitchell but I would actually probably have to go with the bold take of fifth best player behind Bogdonavic as well. He's young though so I could see him overtaking Conley in the next couple years