The Lack of Talent on this US Squad is Overstated

[Fencer reregistered]

SI has player rankings out (health considered) that, although we can all disagree strongly with parts of them, are not crazy.

The top-50 players on the US squad were Walker, Mitchell, Middleton, Tatum and Turner. One was hurt; one played badly; three played more or less in line with their standards (including known limitations). Similarly for other top-100 guys: Brown, Barnes, Smart and whoever I'm forgetting. Nobody happened to break out or play way over his NBA head the way that, for example, some older Argentians and Brazilians did.

Unfortunately, given the short prep time, rules differences and roster imbalances, we needed the team to have some aspects that performed BETTER than expectations, and that didn't happen. Jaylen Brown in the NBA sometimes is a 30 point scorer (in more minutes that he'd ever get in FIBA) and sometimes a nonentity; that's what he was as a scorer on Team USA as well, and nothing better. Marcus Smart can string together a few good offensive plays, along with his usual elite defense and hustle; that's what he was for Team USA as well, and nothing better. Etc

[e83pw2oa9hl5f]

Time for the Rugby World Cup. Talk about putting a team out with no chance. Those guys got heart and know they are going to get pummeled and still show up. And very few people even know that the the American Eagles are a team and compete in that world cup. True lack of talent there. But they love their sport and they represent. That is heart. Support your national teams win or loose. Even if college players and not all stars. Those are your guys. So many small nations have no chance at all but go out and represent knowing no chance at all.

How did they qualify?

The U.S. should always put up a competitive team in 7's. It's a scatback's game. 15's is another story.

This is Union, 15's. I have no idea, but they seem to always be there, and they come to compete even though never made it far.. ... No big farm system. 7's have taken off. Big party everyone likes. etc... But it is still international sports where people come together. Hell NZ fields a FIBA Basketball team they know they aren't going to win, but its an international sports event. You don't have to be number 1 or quit or not support if not so.. Its the spirit of cup events that seems to be getting lost here. I have always thought the states really miss out on the fun of this stuff. Win or lose. I hope World Cups start getting more support and more people enjoy the international aspect of it. World Cup Parties traveling over seas to support your team. Nothing like it. Fun.

[kobyz]

I think USA should bring the same 12 guys next year, reaward them for their commitment and use the continuity and experience together to improve things trying to get the gold at that Olympic... cause even with this world cup tournament I think they just got a bad break and would have won the France game 8 or 9 out of 10 it played...

[robbie84]

It's more of an Olympics development squad.
Mainly young guys.
Problem is they don't really need guys like Harrison Barnes there. Middle tier NBA bums like him are just taking space from young guys with more potential.

I mean the team was young, probably too confident, and basically not prepared well enough.

The USA will always be heavy favorites in any tournament, and replace half these young guys with better players and they'll crush.

[peja_the_legend]

They made a half assed preparation of 2 weeks.If you gonna send inferior talent at least have them practise together for a month to built some chemistry.

This if flat out not true. Team USA held a mini-camp in Las Vegas LAST summer, and again THIS summer, and sent out invitations to about 30 players. So many ended up declining and several that attended both camps did so late that Team USA was left scrambling to put together a roster with players that were down to 12 after Kuzma got injured. So it wasn't a case of 'sending inferior talent' as much as going with the guys who committed.

It's one thing to comment on players having bad games or the team not performing to expectations of reputation, but please don't misrepresent the efforts of Team USA brass in preparation. And by the way, this new roster has been together six weeks, still far less time than any other potential contender.

They had their first meeting in Las Vegas at 5 August.The games started at 28 August.So no they weren't together for six weeks.Besides they werent practising every day.After Vegas they took some days off.All in all they had 15 practises before the games started.

"When it opens the World Cup with a game against the Czech Republic on Sunday, the U.S. will have had just 15 practices and five exhibition games to prepare. And the final, 12-man roster has only been together and healthy for two of those games"

https://www.nba.com/article/2019/08/26/usa-lineup-notebook?collection=writer/archive/john-schuhmann

A typical euro team starts their preparation in mid July.Argentina who reached the final even played in Pan American games with the same roster at late July.Of course NBA owners will never agree with this but it's the only way if you want success.You cant pick a random roster of 12 players have them make only 15 practises and expect them to dominate

[G R E Y]

They made a half assed preparation of 2 weeks.If you gonna send inferior talent at least have them practise together for a month to built some chemistry.

This if flat out not true. Team USA held a mini-camp in Las Vegas LAST summer, and again THIS summer, and sent out invitations to about 30 players. So many ended up declining and several that attended both camps did so late that Team USA was left scrambling to put together a roster with players that were down to 12 after Kuzma got injured. So it wasn't a case of 'sending inferior talent' as much as going with the guys who committed.

It's one thing to comment on players having bad games or the team not performing to expectations of reputation, but please don't misrepresent the efforts of Team USA brass in preparation. And by the way, this new roster has been together six weeks, still far less time than any other potential contender.

They had their first meeting in Las Vegas at 5 August.The games started at 28 August.So no they weren't together for six weeks.Besides they werent practising every day.After Vegas they took some days off.All in all they had 15 practises before the games started.

"When it opens the World Cup with a game against the Czech Republic on Sunday, the U.S. will have had just 15 practices and five exhibition games to prepare. And the final, 12-man roster has only been together and healthy for two of those games"

https://www.nba.com/article/2019/08/26/usa-lineup-notebook?collection=writer/archive/john-schuhmann

A typical euro team starts their preparation in mid July.Argentina who reached the final even played in Pan American games with the same roster at late July.Of course NBA owners will never agree with this but it's the only way if you want success.You cant pick a random roster of 12 players have them make only 15 practises and expect them to dominate

They held a mini-camp in Las Vegas LAST summer, and another one again THIS summer. These all count towards preparation because they were designed to get players acclimated to the new leadership and expectations. If you read the recent ESPN article, it details USA Basketball's commitment to the tournament, and details also the frustration of players who committed to invitations only to back out. So it is inaccurate to say that they 'pick[ed] a random roster of 12 players' when in fact this was just about the 12 players left who committed after early cuts, some injuries and a boat load of bail outs on the team. You're misrepresenting the efforts that were made in trying to build cohesion and instilling the foundations from over a year ago. Please remember that this is the turnover year, meaning it is a transition from one group of leadership and players to another. A lot of careful planning and detail went into the transition.

[Fencer reregistered]

I think USA should bring the same 12 guys next year, reaward them for their commitment and use the continuity and experience together to improve things trying to get the gold at that Olympic... cause even with this world cup tournament I think they just got a bad break and would have won the France game 8 or 9 out of 10 it played...

A lot of stars have played for the USA in the past. It's not clear how much credit should be given for recency of participation. E.g., guards who've played in FIBA include Curry, Irving, Harden, Westbrook, Thompson and now Walker and Mitchell. I'd choose among them on the merits -- but if the Olympic team fills up just from guys in that group, then Lilliard and Beal shouldn't have chances at a slot. Similarly, if they want a defense-first guy, then Marcus Smart should get the nod over Patrick Beverly. (Jrue Holiday would be a tougher decision, however, given his the offensive gap between him and Smart ...)

Similarly, Lebron, Durant, and Butler (who at least played in the Olympics) should be offered slots if they deserve them. Paul George DEFINITELY should be offered one, given what he wound up sacrificing for Team USA. Tatum and/or Brown should get preference if there's any room left over, but unless they have the breakout seasons I hope for as a Celtics fans, they shouldn't be selected over the other four guys.

And given our shortage of centers, of course Turner's on the team if he wants to be.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I don’t think it’s overstated at all. In 2016, they had Melo, PG, KD, Kyrie, Klay, Draymond, Cousins, DeRozan, Lowry, Butler, DJ — basically a team of all-stars to superstars and they beat France by just 3 points, Serbia by 3 points, and Spain by 6.

Comparatively, this team was a lot weaker with a lot less experience — in international play, but also in general.

[Lalouie]

It is difficult to make indirect comparisons, but I think people are underrating the level of talent on this squad. Let's put it this way. The team has 4 core members of the Celtics team. And this is a Celtics team that is rated to finish #3 in the East and is seen as one of the top 8-10 teams in the league. Imagine swapping the Celtics rookies, Kanter, Hayward for D. Mitchell, Middleton, Turner, Barnes, etc. That would be the roided up Celtics team and the deepest team in the league. Most people would put that team as one of the 3 best teams in the NBA.

And that team is getting beaten by the likes of France, Serbia, Australia, and almost losing to Turkey. Maybe it is not that the talent is overrated but NBA teams are just overrated? That is, the sum is just not as good as the individual parts for a typical NBA team?

there is a decided DIRTH of stars on your team. you got a bunch of wannabe stars as your core to start with

[Chuck Diesel]

It wasn’t so much that they weren’t talented enough it’s that they were ill fitting for reach other, the tournament and for what Pop was trying to instill. If they just selected a well thought out team of hard playing, two way role playing veterans with a few designated shot creators this team easily could’ve won gold.

Kemba/Patrick Beverley/Seth Curry
Mitchell/Garrett Temple
Terrance Ross/Joe Harris
Justice Winslow/ Anthony Tolliver
Dedmon/Jeremai Grant/Ed Davis

If they’re going without the top tier talent they need to just select the best fitting 12 available veteran guys who will go and build a system around them. No more **** around with camp cuts and roster uncertainty, just select the 12 you want and roll.

[SerialChiller]

Talent wise they were still easily the best squad...the US is that deep. But talent alone isnt always enough obviously...

[yellowknifer]

No chemistry though.

[scrabbarista]

It is difficult to make indirect comparisons, but I think people are underrating the level of talent on this squad. Let's put it this way. The team has 4 core members of the Celtics team. And this is a Celtics team that is rated to finish #3 in the East and is seen as one of the top 8-10 teams in the league. Imagine swapping the Celtics rookies, Kanter, Hayward for D. Mitchell, Middleton, Turner, Barnes, etc. That would be the roided up Celtics team and the deepest team in the league. Most people would put that team as one of the 3 best teams in the NBA.

And that team is getting beaten by the likes of France, Serbia, Australia, and almost losing to Turkey. Maybe it is not that the talent is overrated but NBA teams are just overrated? That is, the sum is just not as good as the individual parts for a typical NBA team?

Don't forget the US Select team with G leaguers that beat them I believe as well.

They had a lot of talent still, I just think it was a ridiculously constructed team terible rebounders. If Lopez wasn't making three's like he didn't he's basically useless as he rebounds like a PG. Plumblee? WTF. They cut PG Tucker and he's the exact kind of role player I think this team could have used more than Kyle Kusma. I don't even think Kusma is good but just having more talent doesn't always mean a better team or fit.

Tucker left because he was hurt. Lopez making the team was astounding, though. A truly awful decision. I was shocked when he made the final cut.

It's also been said by Bill Simmons a couple of times that De'Aaron Fox left the team after he played only six minutes in an exhibition game, with Derrick White getting the bulk of the minutes ahead of him. Personally, I think Fox may have been the best player on the team at that point, so that was another awful decision by the coaching staff.

EDIT: Then you have Barnes playing 32 (of 40) minutes in the France game - he played center for practically the whole second half. And starting Joe Harris. A joke. No rebounding for this squad. We also were up by seven when Kemba re-entered the game against France and down by ten when he finished playing, IIRC. Something like that, anyway. Maybe a better decision would have been to see that it wasn't his day and adjust the line-up accordingly.

And the lack of creativity or versatility in any part of the team approach. I just think the coaches failed from start to finish here, probably even more than the players. (Thus, I agree, to an extent, with the title of the thread.)

[lambchop]

I'm all about FIBA basketball and I despise some of the NBA rules, but no, this team really wasn't that talented compared to previous squads.

If you were to make a highlight tape with the best dunks, blocks, passes or players simply feeling it from deep, it would be meh.

There were only 2 real athletes on the team - brown and Mitchell - there was no prolific passer on the team. There was no one who can give you 4 to 5 threes in a row.

[scrabbarista]

I'm all about FIBA basketball and I despise some of the NBA rules, but no, this team really wasn't that talented compared to previous squads.

If you were to make a highlight tape with the best dunks, blocks, passes or players simply feeling it from deep, it would be meh.

There were only 2 real athletes on the team - brown and Mitchell - there was no prolific passer on the team. There was no one who can give you 4 to 5 threes in a row.

All the more reason Fox should have been highlighted from the start, rather than Derrick White. Fox was willing to play. He just wanted to, you know, play. I blame Popovich, but on the other hand, you can kind of understand him not wanting to go through 82 games next season with Derrick White thinking, "This guy cut me this summer." And keeping/playing White also ostensibly benefits the Spurs, of course (via the extra experience for White). Maybe it's the fault of the higher ups for having an NBA coach making the roster decisions.

[G R E Y]

I'm all about FIBA basketball and I despise some of the NBA rules, but no, this team really wasn't that talented compared to previous squads.

If you were to make a highlight tape with the best dunks, blocks, passes or players simply feeling it from deep, it would be meh.

There were only 2 real athletes on the team - brown and Mitchell - there was no prolific passer on the team. There was no one who can give you 4 to 5 threes in a row.

All the more reason Fox should have been highlighted from the start, rather than Derrick White. Fox was willing to play. He just wanted to, you know, play. I blame Popovich, but on the other hand, you can kind of understand him not wanting to go through 82 games next season with Derrick White thinking, "This guy cut me this summer." And keeping/playing White also ostensibly benefits the Spurs, of course (via the extra experience for White). Maybe it's the fault of the higher ups for having an NBA coach making the roster decisions.

You do realize that after 35 invitations, extra invitations had to be given out to even get the 12? If it were not for Kuzma injury, he'd have been on the team. I don't know whether Fox was cut or he left, but each guard was given fair minutes. This team already had guards who could penetrate, but FIBA ball is far more physical and Fox's outside shot is sketchy at best, so not sure if he'd have fit that concept despite his individual talent. I wasn't thrilled with Lopez or Plumlee either, but it's just about the only players left after so many dropped out. I know people find that hard to believe, and there were some cuts early, but there really wasn't as much choice as fans here keep speculating about based on the most recent ESPN article.

[scrabbarista]

I'm all about FIBA basketball and I despise some of the NBA rules, but no, this team really wasn't that talented compared to previous squads.

If you were to make a highlight tape with the best dunks, blocks, passes or players simply feeling it from deep, it would be meh.

There were only 2 real athletes on the team - brown and Mitchell - there was no prolific passer on the team. There was no one who can give you 4 to 5 threes in a row.

All the more reason Fox should have been highlighted from the start, rather than Derrick White. Fox was willing to play. He just wanted to, you know, play. I blame Popovich, but on the other hand, you can kind of understand him not wanting to go through 82 games next season with Derrick White thinking, "This guy cut me this summer." And keeping/playing White also ostensibly benefits the Spurs, of course (via the extra experience for White). Maybe it's the fault of the higher ups for having an NBA coach making the roster decisions.

You do realize that after 35 invitations, extra invitations had to be given out to even get the 12? If it were not for Kuzma injury, he'd have been on the team. I don't know whether Fox was cut or he left, but each guard was given fair minutes. This team already had guards who could penetrate, but FIBA ball is far more physical and Fox's outside shot is sketchy at best, so not sure if he'd have fit that concept despite his individual talent. I wasn't thrilled with Lopez or Plumlee either, but it's just about the only players left after so many dropped out. I know people find that hard to believe, and there were some cuts early, but there really wasn't as much choice as fans here keep speculating about based on the most recent ESPN article.

Fox shot 37.1% from three on 3.3 attempts per game last season. White shot 33.8% on 3.0 attempts per game.

"Despite looking like a star at the camp, Fox played just six minutes in Team USA's 90-81 exhibition win over Spain."
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/kings/kings-deaaron-fox-mum-leaving-team-usa-says-hes-completely-healthy

Lopez, I guess, made the final roster because of the Kuzma injury. Fair enough. In hindsight, though, it has to be assumed that Adebayo and Thaddeus Young would've helped the team more than Lopez did. I think the real shame was Fox, though. I think he may be a better player, today, than anyone else on the roster.

[G R E Y]

All the more reason Fox should have been highlighted from the start, rather than Derrick White. Fox was willing to play. He just wanted to, you know, play. I blame Popovich, but on the other hand, you can kind of understand him not wanting to go through 82 games next season with Derrick White thinking, "This guy cut me this summer." And keeping/playing White also ostensibly benefits the Spurs, of course (via the extra experience for White). Maybe it's the fault of the higher ups for having an NBA coach making the roster decisions.

You do realize that after 35 invitations, extra invitations had to be given out to even get the 12? If it were not for Kuzma injury, he'd have been on the team. I don't know whether Fox was cut or he left, but each guard was given fair minutes. This team already had guards who could penetrate, but FIBA ball is far more physical and Fox's outside shot is sketchy at best, so not sure if he'd have fit that concept despite his individual talent. I wasn't thrilled with Lopez or Plumlee either, but it's just about the only players left after so many dropped out. I know people find that hard to believe, and there were some cuts early, but there really wasn't as much choice as fans here keep speculating about based on the most recent ESPN article.

Fox shot 37.1% from three on 3.3 attempts per game last season. White shot 33.8% on 3.0 attempts per game.

"Despite looking like a star at the camp, Fox played just six minutes in Team USA's 90-81 exhibition win over Spain."
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/kings/kings-deaaron-fox-mum-leaving-team-usa-says-hes-completely-healthy

Lopez, I guess, made the final roster because of the Kuzma injury. Fair enough. In hindsight, though, it has to be assumed that Adebayo and Thaddeus Young would've helped the team more than Lopez did. I think the real shame was Fox, though. I think he may be a better player, today, than anyone else on the roster.

But we're isolating one player, and one aspect of his game, whereas I'm trying to make a case for his overall fit given the team needs and FIBA style - more physical, defense-foundation, team already had penetrators. White sat with very few minutes when Fox played well, and then Fox had a game he didn't perform well, and White got more minutes. I mean, like I said, there's some mixed messages I've read in media about whether he was cut or he left, but it really wasn't down to just him or not.

Out of 35 players who received an invitation, FOUR were on this roster. That means more invitations had to be extended to even get to 12. I think the initial cuts were made with expectations of those who accepted invitations would stick to their word. But nobody expected the huge drop outs. To be honest, Thad Young did not do himself any favours in camp - he often looked slow and flat footed, just wasn't his best showing. As for other bigs, like I said, early cuts were made with the thinking that others would step up. Combine that with Tatum - a starter - out for the last four games, and well, this wasn't anywhere near any projected roster that was anticipated.

[scrabbarista]

.

[scrabbarista]

You do realize that after 35 invitations, extra invitations had to be given out to even get the 12? If it were not for Kuzma injury, he'd have been on the team. I don't know whether Fox was cut or he left, but each guard was given fair minutes. This team already had guards who could penetrate, but FIBA ball is far more physical and Fox's outside shot is sketchy at best, so not sure if he'd have fit that concept despite his individual talent. I wasn't thrilled with Lopez or Plumlee either, but it's just about the only players left after so many dropped out. I know people find that hard to believe, and there were some cuts early, but there really wasn't as much choice as fans here keep speculating about based on the most recent ESPN article.

Fox shot 37.1% from three on 3.3 attempts per game last season. White shot 33.8% on 3.0 attempts per game.

"Despite looking like a star at the camp, Fox played just six minutes in Team USA's 90-81 exhibition win over Spain."
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/kings/kings-deaaron-fox-mum-leaving-team-usa-says-hes-completely-healthy

Lopez, I guess, made the final roster because of the Kuzma injury. Fair enough. In hindsight, though, it has to be assumed that Adebayo and Thaddeus Young would've helped the team more than Lopez did. I think the real shame was Fox, though. I think he may be a better player, today, than anyone else on the roster.

But we're isolating one player, and one aspect of his game, whereas I'm trying to make a case for his overall fit given the team needs and FIBA style - more physical, defense-foundation, team already had penetrators. White sat with very few minutes when Fox played well, and then Fox had a game he didn't perform well, and White got more minutes. I mean, like I said, there's some mixed messages I've read in media about whether he was cut or he left, but it really wasn't down to just him or not.

Out of 35 players who received an invitation, FOUR were on this roster. That means more invitations had to be extended to even get to 12. I think the initial cuts were made with expectations of those who accepted invitations would stick to their word. But nobody expected the huge drop outs. To be honest, Thad Young did not do himself any favours in camp - he often looked slow and flat footed, just wasn't his best showing. As for other bigs, like I said, early cuts were made with the thinking that others would step up. Combine that with Tatum - a starter - out for the last four games, and well, this wasn't anywhere near any projected roster that was anticipated.

This team did not have enough penetrators, and it definitely didn't have enough creators. Fox is a good shooter, faster than anyone who made the roster by a lot, and averaged 11 asts per100 to Kemba's 8, the best on the team. Again, in my opinion he may have been the best player, today, on the entire roster. He should have been leading the team, not playing six minutes. The words "defense" and "physical" are red herrings. I've only heard that he left - from CBS and from Bill Simmons. The only source I have of him being cut is you.

As for "White sat with very few minutes," etc., I'm not going to look up the actual numbers if you aren't.

Again, fair enough on Young. My pick would've been Adebayo over Young, Lopez, Plumlee... but I understand Plumlee being rewarded for his past participation, and he's more useful than Lopez anyway, so the guy to go should've been Lopez. In my opinion - and there's no way to know, obviously - Team USA would've won gold with Adebayo playing most of Lopez and Plumlee's 17 minutes per game and Fox playing most of White's 15.5 minutes per game. And how does Turner play only 19 mpg on a team with no bigs while Joe Harris is playing 21 mpg? You look closely, and the coaching/roster cuts were plainly bad. Don't expect to convert you, as you pretty obviously have a horse in the race, but that's how I see it. Looks clear to me.