The Lack of Talent on this US Squad is Overstated

[Sinobas]

The results are interesting. Except for a few obvious exceptions, the other nations teams are full of players who couldn't even make an nba roster. Unless there is some kind of gross underestimation of international players...which I don't think is the case because the rest of the world Europe in particular is well scouted these days.

Yet we've seen team USAs lose and not be that dominant.

I think it's because they feel they can just show up and win, wheras the other teams treat it like the fight of their lives.

[G R E Y]

Fox shot 37.1% from three on 3.3 attempts per game last season. White shot 33.8% on 3.0 attempts per game.

"Despite looking like a star at the camp, Fox played just six minutes in Team USA's 90-81 exhibition win over Spain."
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/kings/kings-deaaron-fox-mum-leaving-team-usa-says-hes-completely-healthy

Lopez, I guess, made the final roster because of the Kuzma injury. Fair enough. In hindsight, though, it has to be assumed that Adebayo and Thaddeus Young would've helped the team more than Lopez did. I think the real shame was Fox, though. I think he may be a better player, today, than anyone else on the roster.

But we're isolating one player, and one aspect of his game, whereas I'm trying to make a case for his overall fit given the team needs and FIBA style - more physical, defense-foundation, team already had penetrators. White sat with very few minutes when Fox played well, and then Fox had a game he didn't perform well, and White got more minutes. I mean, like I said, there's some mixed messages I've read in media about whether he was cut or he left, but it really wasn't down to just him or not.

Out of 35 players who received an invitation, FOUR were on this roster. That means more invitations had to be extended to even get to 12. I think the initial cuts were made with expectations of those who accepted invitations would stick to their word. But nobody expected the huge drop outs. To be honest, Thad Young did not do himself any favours in camp - he often looked slow and flat footed, just wasn't his best showing. As for other bigs, like I said, early cuts were made with the thinking that others would step up. Combine that with Tatum - a starter - out for the last four games, and well, this wasn't anywhere near any projected roster that was anticipated.

This team did not have enough penetrators. Fox is a good shooter, faster than anyone who made the roster by a lot, and averaged 11 asts per100 to Kemba's 8, the best on the team. Again, in my opinion he may have been the best player, today, on the entire roster. He should have been leading the team, not playing six minutes. The words "defense" and "physical" are red herrings. I've only heard that he left - from CBS and from Bill Simmons. The only source I have of him being cut is you.

As for "White sat with very few minutes," etc., I'm not going to look up the actual numbers if you aren't.

Again, fair enough on Young. My pick would've been Adebayo over Young, Lopez, Plumlee... but I understand Plumlee being rewarded for his past participation, and he's more useful than Lopez anyway, so the guy to go should've been Lopez. In my opinion - and there's no way to know, obviously - Team USA would've won gold with Adebayo playing most of Lopez and Plumlee's 17 minutes per game and Fox playing most of White's 15.5 minutes per game. And how does Turner play only 19 mpg on a team with no bigs while Joe Harris is playing 21 mpg? You look closely, and the coaching/roster cuts were plainly bad. Don't expect to convert you, as you pretty obviously have a horse in the race, but that's how I see it. Looks clear.

The thing is, I'm not really advocating for White unequivocally here over Fox or whoever. As for Fox being cut, Rachel's 1/2 hr bball show (the episode after France beat USA) is my reference for his being cut. One of her co-hosts said Fox was cut and would never play for a Jerry Colangelo-led USA team which was a strong way of putting it. I don't know the agendas here of whether the co-host is somebody's mouthpiece or what, but he did not elaborate, which is irritating. Maybe he's just trying to drum up hype for the show and just giving his opinion, but again, no further details were provided.

The game where Fox played six minutes is the game that White played more. The game PRIOR to that one Fox was playing well in extended minutes, and so White didn't see court time until the second half, and played something like 6-8 minutes. How is defense in quotation marks? It's a foundation of this team. And the players in several post-game interviews were commenting about how much more physical the FIBA style is and they were adjusting to it.

I think we're arguing two paths here, you are focused mostly on Fox, I am on the nearly three dozen players who did not commit, most of whom accepted invitations in the first place. So if you want Fox on the team instead of White, fine, but the whole roster isn't what was anticipated.

I already explained why Adebayo cut made sense at the time - others were expected to stay on. So the adjustments coaches had to make were to the roster they were left with - again the choices to the roster were very limited as Colangelo explained. It just shows the importance of keeping your word.

It'll be interesting to see how players who value Olympics more will respond now.

[Sinobas]

I support the idea of not sending our stars to international competition. First of all, they put way too much stress on their bodies as it is with the over-long nba season. Secondly, if you need that massive of a talent gap to win, you don't deserve to win.

We should be able to win with any collection of decent nba talent if the guys play hard enough.

[scrabbarista]

But we're isolating one player, and one aspect of his game, whereas I'm trying to make a case for his overall fit given the team needs and FIBA style - more physical, defense-foundation, team already had penetrators. White sat with very few minutes when Fox played well, and then Fox had a game he didn't perform well, and White got more minutes. I mean, like I said, there's some mixed messages I've read in media about whether he was cut or he left, but it really wasn't down to just him or not.

Out of 35 players who received an invitation, FOUR were on this roster. That means more invitations had to be extended to even get to 12. I think the initial cuts were made with expectations of those who accepted invitations would stick to their word. But nobody expected the huge drop outs. To be honest, Thad Young did not do himself any favours in camp - he often looked slow and flat footed, just wasn't his best showing. As for other bigs, like I said, early cuts were made with the thinking that others would step up. Combine that with Tatum - a starter - out for the last four games, and well, this wasn't anywhere near any projected roster that was anticipated.

This team did not have enough penetrators. Fox is a good shooter, faster than anyone who made the roster by a lot, and averaged 11 asts per100 to Kemba's 8, the best on the team. Again, in my opinion he may have been the best player, today, on the entire roster. He should have been leading the team, not playing six minutes. The words "defense" and "physical" are red herrings. I've only heard that he left - from CBS and from Bill Simmons. The only source I have of him being cut is you.

As for "White sat with very few minutes," etc., I'm not going to look up the actual numbers if you aren't.

Again, fair enough on Young. My pick would've been Adebayo over Young, Lopez, Plumlee... but I understand Plumlee being rewarded for his past participation, and he's more useful than Lopez anyway, so the guy to go should've been Lopez. In my opinion - and there's no way to know, obviously - Team USA would've won gold with Adebayo playing most of Lopez and Plumlee's 17 minutes per game and Fox playing most of White's 15.5 minutes per game. And how does Turner play only 19 mpg on a team with no bigs while Joe Harris is playing 21 mpg? You look closely, and the coaching/roster cuts were plainly bad. Don't expect to convert you, as you pretty obviously have a horse in the race, but that's how I see it. Looks clear.

The thing is, I'm not really advocating for White unequivocally here over Fox or whoever. As for Fox being cut, Rachel's 1/2 hr bball show (the episode after France beat USA) is my reference for his being cut. One of her co-hosts said Fox was cut and would never play for a Jerry Colangelo-led USA team which was a strong way of putting it. I don't know the agendas here of whether the co-host is somebody's mouthpiece or what, but he did not elaborate, which is irritating. Maybe he's just trying to drum up hype for the show and just giving his opinion, but again, no further details were provided.

The game where Fox was playing well in exhibition, White didn't see court time until the second half, and played something like 6-8 minutes. How is defense in quotation marks? It's a foundation of this team. And the players in just about every post-game interview were commenting about how much more physical the FIBA style is and they were adjusting to it.

I think we're arguing two paths here, you are focused mostly on Fox, I am on the nearly three dozen players who did not commit, most of whom accepted invitations in the first place. So if you want Fox on the team instead of White, fine, but the whole roster isn't what was anticipated.

I already explained why Adebayo cut made sense at the time - others were expected to stay on. So the adjustments coaches had to make were to the roster they were left with - again the choices to the roster were very limited as Colangelo explained. It just shows the importance of keeping your word.

It'll be interesting to see how players who value Olympics more will respond now.

Yes, with all the players who didn't commit, coaching and cuts actually became critical difference makers. If the good players had played, the coaching and cuts would've been pretty simple. We would've won, regardless of poor coaching or cuts.

I guess "Rachel's show" is The Jump? And I don't know who her co-host was. The only thing I've heard is that he left. I did see a headline that Colangelo was frustrated with the leavers, though, so you may be right that he won't play for a Colangelo team. Not because he was cut and won't accept another invite, but because he left and won't receive another invite. I think he's too good not to show up on a USA team in the future, though. Probably when Colangelo and Pop are both gone. I am focused on Fox because I think he would've been a gigantic difference maker if given enough opportunity. That's all.

Defense is in quotes because the team's failures were not due to defense (except inside). It's not like, "Oh, we can't include Fox, or our defense will suck." Give me a break. The defense was fine - very strong - and Fox is fine on defense. And on offense, where the problems actually were, no one could replace his combination of speed, skill, shooting, and playmaking.

You have somewhat of a point on Adebayo. He still should've been around longer, though. If I'm not mistaken - I may be - this wasn't even his first camp. So there was a certain amount of loyalty from him. Even if that's not true, though, the only bigs on the team when he was cut who didn't make the final roster were Marvin Bagley, P.J. Tucker, and, I guess, Kyle Kuzma. Adebayo could've remained over Lopez or Kuzma pretty easily, if you ask me. Bottom line is that this team was horrendous on the glass and defending opposing size. Who was even the best rebounder on the team? Plumlee? Bam could've been awfully useful.

[Lalouie]

It is difficult to make indirect comparisons, but I think people are underrating the level of talent on this squad. Let's put it this way. The team has 4 core members of the Celtics team. And this is a Celtics team that is rated to finish #3 in the East and is seen as one of the top 8-10 teams in the league. Imagine swapping the Celtics rookies, Kanter, Hayward for D. Mitchell, Middleton, Turner, Barnes, etc. That would be the roided up Celtics team and the deepest team in the league. Most people would put that team as one of the 3 best teams in the NBA.

And that team is getting beaten by the likes of France, Serbia, Australia, and almost losing to Turkey. Maybe it is not that the talent is overrated but NBA teams are just overrated? That is, the sum is just not as good as the individual parts for a typical NBA team?

when the big "STARS" were dropping out or decided not to go, there was concern before the games started. in other words we KNEW what we lacked going in, and that was our stars. ergo we knew what the team lacked, ergo we knew the team was shorthanded. deduction: this team lacked the talent.

what kept everyone thinking the usa would win was ours and the media's hubris, and the general world view that we've always won so why shouldn't we continue to win, and that everything goes through the usa.

our lack of talent is not overstated. the WORLD'S "lack of talent" is.

[Patsfan1081]

Still trying to figure out what was the purpose of bringing Plumlee and Lopez lol

They've been in US system for ever so they'll get some favoritism over others. Same with Smart and Barnes.

[Patsfan1081]

Talent wise they were still easily the best squad...the US is that deep. But talent alone isnt always enough obviously...

Well look at how the team was constructed, they were still scrambling to put together a roster during the exhibition games while other countries have had the same cores for years. Also a big reason Greece did poorly. This was even more obvious with their big men, Jaylen Brown, a shooting guard, was forced to play center during small ball. Give a healthy starting squad of Walker/Mitchell/Turner/Tatum/Middleton a month to prepare.....

[Ray Donovan]

From watching some of the Gold medal game it was played completely different than an NBA game, more physical, lane clogged, quicker ball movement & less athleticism displayed. The FIBA game is definitely not made for the 'ugly American NBA player'. I feel the style of the game, the team chemistry & the fact many of the best players in the world are International are the reasons the USA lost. I've never understood the thinking that Defensive 3 Seconds is a good rule, it goes against all the principles of good team defense, maybe the NBA should junk this rule. The NBA has already lost some of its allure like it had in the 80's & 90's because they've taken away so much of the physicality & defense so it's more entertainment than true basketball, touche~

[Eric Millegan]

It is difficult to make indirect comparisons, but I think people are underrating the level of talent on this squad. Let's put it this way. The team has 4 core members of the Celtics team. And this is a Celtics team that is rated to finish #3 in the East and is seen as one of the top 8-10 teams in the league. Imagine swapping the Celtics rookies, Kanter, Hayward for D. Mitchell, Middleton, Turner, Barnes, etc. That would be the roided up Celtics team and the deepest team in the league. Most people would put that team as one of the 3 best teams in the NBA.

And that team is getting beaten by the likes of France, Serbia, Australia, and almost losing to Turkey. Maybe it is not that the talent is overrated but NBA teams are just overrated? That is, the sum is just not as good as the individual parts for a typical NBA team?

Two recent All Stars on the team, right? Middleton and Walker. Hardly the deepest team in the NBA. That team could get bounced in first round of NBA Playoffs or even miss playoffs.

[Lalouie]

the reality is, the usa was a duke team sending it's bench players to play 'nova

[Bum Adebayo]

International talent is underrated, and NBA rules don't favour the best qualities of International players, usually less athletic, thus defending in a different and smarter way and withmore physicality, and also NBA rules have banned post play and traditional center skillset, which is what International basketball is at his best.

[DavidDunn21]

If Middleton got 160ish million Bogdanovic is worth twice that much which just tells you one of the glaring stupidity of NBA.

Watching Middleton play for Team USA during Group and Knockout stages of the tournament it is hard to believe he has that kind of huge max contract. He looked more like a minimum salary journey man, actually didn't look like an NBA level player at all.

More often than not he looks like that in the Association. People just recently started watching the Bucks

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[Sulico]

I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but Popovich is very overrated coach. He invented a lot of good strats over his career, but he is incredibly stubborn and not flexible on his players. This has cost my Spurs at least 2 rings, and now it shows on international stage.