FIBA WORLD CUP 2019 | SPAIN are new WORLD CHAMPIONS

rade · Post #3741 » by **rade** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:12 am

Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
DWadeno3 wrote:
juli_rc wrote:Since the first years of the new century, there was a dispute, between Argentina and Spain for the second best team in the world (USA is first, obviously).

After this tourament, there is no doubt.

ARG:
2002 2°
2004 1°
2006 4°
2008 3°
2010 5°
2012 4°
2014 11°
2016 8°
2019 2°
Average 4,5°

SPA:
2002 5°
2004 7°
2006 1°
2008 2°
2010 6°
2012 2°
2014 5°
2016 3°
2019 1°
Average 3,5°

USA:
2002 6°
2004 3°
2006 3°
2008 1°
2010 1°
2012 1°
2014 1°
2016 1°
2019 7°
Average 2,6°

What you think?

Spain is closer to us than to Argentina. They're an outstanding basketball nation and their league is considered the second best in the world for a reason. What impresses me the most about them is their ability to up their game during the knockout stages. This wasn't the first tournament when they didn't perform that well in the group stages, only to get better when it mattered the most.

Second best league in the world is Euroleague and by a very big margin.

He is talking about national leagues. Euroleague is a competition between best euro teams, it's like Champions League in soccer. Nobody will say you that the best soccer league in the world is the Champions League.

Bob8 · Post #3742 » by **Bob8** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:40 am

rade wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
DWadeno3 wrote:

Spain is closer to us than to Argentina. They're an outstanding basketball nation and their league is considered the second best in the world for a reason. What impresses me the most about them is their ability to up their game during the knockout stages. This wasn't the first tournament when they didn't perform that well in the group stages, only to get better when it mattered the most.

Second best league in the world is Euroleague and by a very big margin.

He is talking about national leagues. Euroleague is a competition between best euro teams, it's like Champions League in soccer. Nobody will say you that the best soccer league in the world is the Champions League.

Euroleague is totally different than Champions league. It has normal league system with 18 clubs. Everyone is playing each other twice. Regular season has 34 games, very similar to all national league. Than you have best of 5 series and F4. Meaning minimum 34 games, best teams around 40 games. Champions league has only 6 games for half of the clubs. And even the winner is playing only 13 games. That’s totally different than in Euroleague. Most of the teams in Euroleague have A license, meaning they’re playing Euroleague no matter what happens in national league. Euroleague is in reality very closed league, very similar to national leagues, the only difference is that there are playing the best clubs in Europe, system and number of games are very similar to national leagues.

whatever_ · Post #3743 » by **whatever_** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:45 am

KG Leonard wrote:I was wondering what is the story with Llull? The Swedish commentators said he was drafted by NBA team but never went to NBA. Anyone know the reason he stayed?

I dont follow Euroleague and i was impressed how he played, the way he moved like trickster ala Manu Ginobli and also hitting big shots. There are many PGs on NBA roations not that skilled,smart.

Skickat från min SM-N950F via Tapatalk

He just preferred to stay at Real Madrid being important than being another bench player in the NBA.
Anyways, he had a knee injury 2 years ago and he hasn't recovered his former level yet, probably he will never do considering he's turning 32 in November.

Spanish_Laker · Post #3744 » by **Spanish_Laker** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:53 am

Von Bismarck wrote:
Spanish_Laker wrote:Looking forward to one more epic Olympics Finals vs USA next summer!

Epic? Say you make it to the finals, team USA will do a walkover there with a full roster. Spanish team is good, but miles away from those 2008 or 2012 Spanish teams.

Yes. E-P-I-C. It took monster 4th Q push by a Dream Team to beat us, every single Gold Medal game has been really close, down to the wire. Take off your homer glasses.

zgope1 · Post #3745 » by **zgope1** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:13 am

they got carried by the refs in the semi against Australia. didn't deserve to win. and Rubio flopped the whole time. i hate them.

minami · Post #3746 » by **minami** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:31 am

zgope1 wrote:didn't deserve to win.

The Argentinian coach differs but well I guess you know better...

"Spain dominated us from end to end, it was just superior. It has a tremendous team and everything that Argentina did bad was because of them. We were not relaxed or satisfied. Everything that happened was the merit of Spain. We didn´t lose the final, we won the silver. "

minami · Post #3747 » by **minami** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:36 am

Spanish_Laker wrote:
Von Bismarck wrote:
Spanish_Laker wrote:Looking forward to one more epic Olympics Finals vs USA next summer!

Epic? Say you make it to the finals, team USA will do a walkover there with a full roster. Spanish team is good, but miles away from those 2008 or 2012 Spanish teams.

Yes. E-P-I-C. It took monster 4th Q push by a Dream Team to beat us, every single Gold Medal game has been really close, down to the wire. Take off your homer glasses.

The only time I´ve seen actual terror in Lebron´s eyes, with a just a couple of minutes left. We are talking about Spain really pushing it against the second best team ever assembled, if not the best. While fighting for the Olympic gold.

Of course it was epic, and well-deserving a place in the Pantheon of the greatest international games ever.

txusto · Post #3748 » by **txusto** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:07 am

zgope1 wrote:they got carried by the refs in the semi against Australia. didn't deserve to win. and Rubio flopped the whole time. i hate them.

WELL DESERVED WORLD CHAMPIONS

Watch on YouTube

rade · Post #3749 » by **rade** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:09 am

Bob8 wrote:
rade wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:

Second best league in the world is Euroleague and by a very big margin.

He is talking about national leagues. Euroleague is a competition between best euro teams, it's like Champions League in soccer. Nobody will say you that the best soccer league in the world is the Champions League.

Euroleague is totally different than Champions league. It has normal league system with 18 clubs. Everyone is playing each other twice. Regular season has 34 games, very similar to all national league. Than you have best of 5 series and F4. Meaning minimum 34 games, best teams around 40 games. Champions league has only 6 games for half of the clubs. And even the winner is playing only 13 games. That’s totally different than in Euroleague. Most of the teams in Euroleague have A license, meaning they’re playing Euroleague no matter what happens in national league. Euroleague is in reality very closed league, very similar to national leagues, the only difference is that there are playing the best clubs in Europe, system and number of games are very similar to national leagues.

I repeat again, he's talking about national leagues. After NBA, spanish ACB is the second best national league in the world.

Bob8 · Post #3750 » by **Bob8** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:23 pm

rade wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
rade wrote:
He is talking about national leagues. Euroleague is a competition between best euro teams, it's like Champions League in soccer. Nobody will say you that the best soccer league in the world is the Champions League.

Euroleague is totally different than Champions league. It has normal league system with 18 clubs. Everyone is playing each other twice. Regular season has 34 games, very similar to all national league. Than you have best of 5 series and F4. Meaning minimum 34 games, best teams around 40 games. Champions league has only 6 games for half of the clubs. And even the winner is playing only 13 games. That’s totally different than in Euroleague. Most of the teams in Euroleague have A license, meaning they’re playing Euroleague no matter what happens in national league. Euroleague is in reality very closed league, very similar to national leagues, the only difference is that there are playing the best clubs in Europe, system and number of games are very similar to national leagues.

I repeat again, he's talking about national leagues. After NBA, spanish ACB is the second best national league in the world.

He said their league is considered as second best in the world for the reason. Assuming that Nba is the best, it’s obviously that he’s not talking exclusively about national leagues. First Nba by a long way, than Euroleague by a long way and than it might be Acb.

Acb and Euroleague have exactly the same structure. 18 clubs, playing 34 games in regular season, 8 qualify for playoffs. The only difference is that Acb has 3 playoffs round and Euroleague has 1 playoffs round + F4. If Nba has the best clubs in USA than Euroleague has the best clubs in Europe. I don’t understand why Euroleague doesn’t qualify as a league in this discussion? Champions league in football is something totally different.

KG Leonard · Post #3751 » by **KG Leonard** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:27 pm

whatever_ wrote:
KG Leonard wrote:I was wondering what is the story with Llull? The Swedish commentators said he was drafted by NBA team but never went to NBA. Anyone know the reason he stayed?

I dont follow Euroleague and i was impressed how he played, the way he moved like trickster ala Manu Ginobli and also hitting big shots. There are many PGs on NBA roations not that skilled,smart.

Skickat från min SM-N950F via Tapatalk

He just preferred to stay at Real Madrid being important than being another bench player in the NBA.
Anyways, he had a knee injury 2 years ago and he hasn't recovered his former level yet, probably he will never do considering he's turning 32 in November.

It is a real shame that he didnt go, the injury because it shows somtimes the best in the world doesnt play in NBA.

If i could choose between player like him coming to star as sixth man PG in Celtics i would choose him before decent bench PGs. He would get more room in the bigger court, spaced flooring type of play.

Skickat från min SM-N950F via Tapatalk

minami · Post #3752 » by **minami** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:53 pm

Bob8 wrote:
rade wrote:
Bob8 wrote:I don’t understand why Euroleague doesn’t qualify as a league in this discussion? Champions league in football is something totally different.

Even if the structure is similar since a few years we all tend to associate Euroleague to the old European Cup here in Europe, in the same way the football Champions League is the old European Cup + UEFA CUP in a new format; Basically the best of each country´s league compete for the cup, which generally means better quality teams involved (we might still argue if the best from Belgium is better than a mid-table one in Spain, etc...).

You are free to include Euroleague in the conversation, but I think they also have a point with the national league approach (which I share). In my opinion, the Euroleague is conceptually more akin to the Champions League no matter the structure, but to each their own.

Whatever its 'ranking' the ACB is a hell of a league which has developed not only a golden generation for Spain but plenty of NBA stars, who went to America with invaluable fundamentals and pro experience already acquired. Also, 21 out of 24 players in the Final have played ACB at some point, which is a remarkable fact.

Bob8 · Post #3753 » by **Bob8** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:04 pm

minami wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
rade wrote:

Even if the structure is similar since a few years we all tend to associate Euroleague to the old European Cup here in Europe, in the same way the football Champions League is the old European Cup + UEFA CUP in a new format; Basically the best of each country´s league compete for the cup, which generally means better quality teams involved (we might still argue if the best from Belgium is better than a mid-table one in Spain, etc...).

You are free to include Euroleague in the conversation, but I think they also have a point with the national league approach (which I share). In my opinion, the Euroleague is conceptually more akin to the Champions League no matter the structure, but to each their own.

Whatever its 'ranking' the ACB is a hell of a league which has developed not only a golden generation for Spain but plenty of NBA stars, who went to America with invaluable fundamentals and pro experience already acquired. Also, 21 out of 24 players in the Final have played ACB at some point, which is a remarkable fact.

You’re wrong because we still have Eurocup and Fiba’s run Champion league, which are both similar to football’s Champions league. Euroleague on the other hand is semi-closed league in which majority of clubs have A license, meaning they’re in that league every season no matter what. Euroleague is a league like Acb( spanish league), Italian league, Turkish league, Aba league, VTB league...Cups are something totally different, teams playing in groups and having knock out rounds. Number of games is much smaller and the best teams not necessarily meat in the whole season.

Sure majority played in Spain, it was Spain against Argentina( we all know how connected Argentina is to Spain). How many would have been playing in Acb, if it had been Serbia vs. France final?

minami · Post #3754 » by **minami** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:15 pm

Bob8 wrote:
minami wrote:
Bob8 wrote:

Even if the structure is similar since a few years we all tend to associate Euroleague to the old European Cup here in Europe, in the same way the football Champions League is the old European Cup + UEFA CUP in a new format; Basically the best of each country´s league compete for the cup, which generally means better quality teams involved (we might still argue if the best from Belgium is better than a mid-table one in Spain, etc...).

You are free to include Euroleague in the conversation, but I think they also have a point with the national league approach (which I share). In my opinion, the Euroleague is conceptually more akin to the Champions League no matter the structure, but to each their own.

Whatever its 'ranking' the ACB is a hell of a league which has developed not only a golden generation for Spain but plenty of NBA stars, who went to America with invaluable fundamentals and pro experience already acquired. Also, 21 out of 24 players in the Final have played ACB at some point, which is a remarkable fact.

You’re wrong because we still have Eurocup and Fiba’s run Champion league, which are both similar to football’s Champions league. Euroleague on the other hand is semi-closed league in which majority of clubs have A license, meaning they’re in that league every season no matter what. Euroleague is a league like Acb( spanish league), Italian league, Turkish league, Aba league, VTB league...

I am not wrong, and you are not going to lecture me on European tournaments. You are mistaking my 'European Cup', which is the Champions League in the old format (no playoffs, no national teams) with the UEFA European Championship (national teams). From Wikipedia;

"Introduced in 1955 as the European Champion Clubs' Cup, more commonly known as the European Cup, it was initially a straight knockout tournament open only to the champion club of each national championship. The competition took on its current name in 1992, adding a round-robin group stage and allowing multiple entrants from certain countries."

Bob8 wrote:Euroleague is a league like Acb( spanish league), Italian league, Turkish league

I am all for a closer European Union but they are different concepts in my opinion, and no matter how long we discuss you won´t get it. But well ok, it says league in both. You win the discussion.

Spain wins the World Championship though, which the thing that matters to me. Win-win!

minami · Post #3755 » by **minami** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:19 pm

Including the Euroleague in the conversation is a bit like putting a 'Best of' compilation against the actual LP´s from a band, because they are both prints on vinyl.

Bob8 · Post #3756 » by **Bob8** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:23 pm

minami wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
minami wrote:Even if the structure is similar since a few years we all tend to associate Euroleague to the old European Cup here in Europe, in the same way the football Champions League is the old European Cup + UEFA CUP in a new format; Basically the best of each country´s league compete for the cup, which generally means better quality teams involved (we might still argue if the best from Belgium is better than a mid-table one in Spain, etc...).

You are free to include Euroleague in the conversation, but I think they also have a point with the national league approach (which I share). In my opinion, the Euroleague is conceptually more akin to the Champions League no matter the structure, but to each their own.

Whatever its 'ranking' the ACB is a hell of a league which has developed not only a golden generation for Spain but plenty of NBA stars, who went to America with invaluable fundamentals and pro experience already acquired. Also, 21 out of 24 players in the Final have played ACB at some point, which is a remarkable fact.

You’re wrong because we still have Eurocup and Fiba’s run Champion league, which are both similar to football’s Champions league. Euroleague on the other hand is semi-closed league in which majority of clubs have A license, meaning they’re in that league every season no matter what. Euroleague is a league like Acb( spanish league), Italian league, Turkish league, Aba league, VTB league...

I am not wrong, and you are not going to lecture me on European tournaments. You are mistaking my 'European Cup', which is the Champions League in the old format (no playoffs, no national teams) with the UEFA European Championship (national teams). From Wikipedia;

"Introduced in 1955 as the European Champion Clubs' Cup, more commonly known as the European Cup, it was initially a straight knockout tournament open only to the champion club of each national championship. The competition took on its current name in 1992, adding a round-robin group stage and allowing multiple entrants from certain countries."

Bob8 wrote:Euroleague is a league like Acb( spanish league), Italian league, Turkish league

I am all for a closer European Union but they are different concepts in my opinion, and no matter how long we discuss you won´t get it. But well ok, it says league in both. You win the discussion.

Spain wins the World Championship though, which the thing that matters to me. Win-win!

Man, we have Euroleague, semi-closed league with all teams playing each other twice like all other national leagues. The same regular season format. Than the same organization run Eurocup, which feature second rank teams with robin round, knockout faze and F4 anf then we have similar competition run by Fiba, with a name Champions league, witch is very similar to Eurocup. Eurocup and Champions league has similar formats than cup in the past or football’s Champions league. It’s obvious that Euroleague is something totally different that Eurocup and Champions league and we had never before in Europe basketball competitions, where teams from different countries are playing true league system, everyone with each twice.

Mirotic12 · Post #3757 » by **Mirotic12** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:27 pm

rade wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
Spoiler:
DWadeno3 wrote:

Spain is closer to us than to Argentina. They're an outstanding basketball nation and their league is considered the second best in the world for a reason. What impresses me the most about them is their ability to up their game during the knockout stages. This wasn't the first tournament when they didn't perform that well in the group stages, only to get better when it mattered the most.

Second best league in the world is Euroleague and by a very big margin.

He is talking about national leagues. Euroleague is a competition between best euro teams, it's like Champions League in soccer. Nobody will say you that the best soccer league in the world is the Champions League.

This isn't correct. EuroLeague is an official league competition, with a league system and format, and 13 of the teams are contracted (franchise in US sports terminology). It's definitely not the same thing as UEFA Champions League. Champions League is a tournament. EuroLeague is a league, and it is without question the best basketball league in Europe.

EuroLeague has been a league officially for several years now. So it's not like Champions League.

KG Leonard wrote:I was wondering what is the story with Llull? The Swedish commentators said he was drafted by NBA team but never went to NBA. Anyone know the reason he stayed?

I dont follow Euroleague and i was impressed how he played, the way he moved like trickster ala Manu Ginobli and also hitting big shots. There are many PGs on NBA roations not that skilled,smart.

Llull used to be a great player for EuroLeague standards. Not so much now. He's lost most of his athletic ability a few years ago, and he's had a bad knee injury and major knee surgery in the last couple years. At his peak, he was like a top 3 player in Europe, now he's like a good rotation player for Real Madrid. But yes, he is certainly better than plenty of NBA rotation players.

minami · Post #3758 » by **minami** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:39 pm

It´s ok Bob, your points are valid and in the end I don´t actually give a **** if ACB is 2nd or 3rd...There is no prize for tournaments. Yet I´d like to see you defending Euroleague so passionately if your national league (wherever you come from) puts 21 out of 24 players in a WC Final.

And again, this is what actually matters on a day like this. What a tournament, what a run!;

Mirotic12 · Post #3759 » by **Mirotic12** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:48 pm

rade wrote:I repeat again, he's talking about national leagues. After NBA, spanish ACB is the second best national league in the world.

No, he was talking about leagues. Saying Spanish League is second best league in the world. It's isn't. EuroLeague is. And yes, EuroLeague is as LEAGUE. Has a league system, league format........every team plays each other home and away in regular season, then a playoffs round of 5 game series, then a final four to close it. Total of 41 games played. 13 of the 18 teams are contracted. Completely different than UEFA Champions League.

So factually speaking, EuroLeague is a league. And it is the second best league in the world. Not the Spanish League. And the whole "Spanish league is second best national league in the world" thing.........seriously no one cares. That's just some stupid thing US media created, because they don't understand how European basketball works.

Spanish is league is miles below EuroLeague in level, in importance, and in league quality. This whole debate only comes up because ignorant US sports media can't grasp that the Spanish league and the EuroLeague are two different leagues. They make this dumb and ignorant claim all the time, then if you ask them about it, they admit they were unaware EuroLeague and Spanish league are two different leagues. I have asked several US sports journalists why they always make the untrue claim that "Spanish league is the 2nd best basketball league in the world" - they all admitted to not actually realizing Spanish League and EuroLeague were two different leagues.

Spanish league is worse than EuroLeague, it's worse than EuroCup, it's worse than FIBA Champions League. It's also debatable in comparison to Turkish league and VTB United league. It's the 4-6 best basketball league in Europe. Even if you count just "leagues" (as in league systems) - the argument you are using, and take out EuroCup and FIBA Champions League (that are tournaments), it's still just the 2-4 best "league" in Europe. So the whole, "it's the 2nd best basketball league in the world" claim from US sports media is not only ridiculous, it's flat out ignorant and untrue.

Also, the actual European basketball version of UEFA Champions League is the FIBA Basketball Champions League. Not EuroLeague. And the whole argument isn't even correct from it's premise. Because NBA isn't a national league. It's an international league. So NBA is the same thing as EuroLeague, or Adriatic League, or NBL Australia, or FIBA Americas League, etc. NBA is an international league, not a national one.

So even the flawed premise of "Spanish league is 2nd best national league in the world" is wrong.

Bob8 · Post #3760 » by **Bob8** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:51 pm

minami wrote:It´s ok Bob, your points are valid and in the end I don´t actually give a **** if ACB is 2nd or 3rd...There is no prize for tournaments. Yet I´d like to see you defending Euroleague so passionately if your national league (wherever you come from) puts 21 out of 24 players in a WC Final.

And again, this is what actually matters on a day like this. What a tournament, what a run!;

I have nothing against you, Acb or Spain. Vast majority of Americans just don’t understand what is going on in Europe, that’s why I replied in the first place.

It’s kinda normal that national team players once played in national league.