Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I don't see this going well at all.

Looking at defense:
09 Lebron is a much, much better defender than Kawhi. This is arguably Lebron's defensive peak. I see a +3 or more advantage for Lebron on defense.

Looking at offense:
Not only is Lebron also much, much better (equal or better scorer, 3x the playmaker, equal rebounder) on offense, but the Cavs offense is tailor made for Lebron, and basically exactly the opposite of what Kawhi needs. Lebron is at his best surrounded by shooters who need help having shots created for them. Kawhi is best with good playmakers who can get him good looks and allow him to iso to mix things up.

I'd say 45-50 wins and probably lose in the first round.

I guess Westbrook is a better rebounder than Kawhi as well now? Cause that's what LeBron gets, those cherry pick rebounds. Yet, kawhi still matches him in rebounding stats.

Defense I think you're digging too deep into stats again as well. LeBron was playing against horrible offensive teams like hawks and pistons, so his defensive stats are enhanced. Kawhi shut down the MVP Giannis, not old fatass Paul Pierce. Kawhi had the much bigger defensive role in the biggest games than LeBron in 09/2010. Maybe 2016 when LeBron guarded Curry comes closer but not 2009/10.

[PaulieWal]

Leonard was easily the 2nd best playmaker on the raptors in the playoffs. There was stretches in the 2nd round, 3rd round, finals when Leonard carried the team in playmaking.

Man, there is really no conversation to be had if you are that far our there on Kawhi's 2019 run. The idea of him as the 2nd best playmaker is so laughable I am not even sure it merits a response at all.

[PaulieWal]

Basically, Lebron pre-Miami was like a good defensive back who covers the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best receiver. Healtles Lebron was much more of a DB houdning the primary receiver. People are too caught up in explsoiveness or athelisicism. It's why guys like TD, Kobe, KG had such an impact on defense...they covered assignments that stifled the opponent. This is what Peak Kawhi does. or even peak Dwight.

I like how you group Kobe in there with guys like KG and Duncan (on defense), like come on bro, who you trying to fool here.

[Franco]

Sent by accident.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Leonard was easily the 2nd best playmaker on the raptors in the playoffs. There was stretches in the 2nd round, 3rd round, finals when Leonard carried the team in playmaking.

Man, there is really no conversation to be had if you are that far our there on Kawhi's 2019 run. The idea of him as the 2nd best playmaker is so laughable I am not even sure it merits a response at all.

Game 3 east finals: 5 assists
Game 5 east finals: 9 assists
Game 6 east finals: 7 assists

Kawhi was a better playmaker than Giannis was in the east finals. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that siakam is a even a halfway decent playmaker, he never passes the ball.

[freethedevil]

They needed scoring so much it was his worst scoring series?

Warriors came out with all eyes on kawhi and Siakam had a good game early.

Yes, a terrible postseason defense went ahead and put their eyes on the raptors's biggest scoring threat. A strong magic defense put their eyes on the cav's biggest scoring threat and only playmaking threat.

Lebron did much better

[LKN]

[An Unbiased Fan]

Basically, Lebron pre-Miami was like a good defensive back who covers the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best receiver. Healtles Lebron was much more of a DB houdning the primary receiver. People are too caught up in explsoiveness or athelisicism. It's why guys like TD, Kobe, KG had such an impact on defense...they covered assignments that stifled the opponent. This is what Peak Kawhi does. or even peak Dwight.

I like how you group Kobe in there with guys like KG and Duncan (on defense), like come on bro, who you trying to fool here.

Kobe is a 9-time All-Defnesive player and guarded the toughest player for the Lakers until around 2011. In 2009 he guarded Melo while still carrying the offensive load in the WCF, and in 2010 he shut down Rondo who had killed the Cavs previously. For me, it's about matchups, and guys like TD, Kobe, KG were matchup changers. Lebron became that with the Heatles, but wasn't that in 2009 or 2010 defensively.

2012 Lebron takes the Cavs to the finals in both 09 & 10, imo.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

They needed scoring so much it was his worst scoring series?

Warriors came out with all eyes on kawhi and Siakam had a good game early.

Yes, a terrible postseason defense went ahead and put their eyes on the raptors's biggest scoring threat. A strong magic defense put their eyes on the cav's biggest scoring threat and only playmaking threat.

Lebron did much better

That was still a defense anchored by Draymond Green arguably best defender in the league. You put your own twist to it and cut off Kawhi vs two superteams in 2nd round and east finals. 76ers had embiid and butler a dominating duo. Bucks had the MVP and 1st ranked defense. You really think lebron has matched three teams like that in 1 year? Never!

kawhi beat curry/klay/Draymond which is like beating the poor mans version of Duncan, manu, tony in their primes but still impressive and only kawhi/LeBron/Duncan have ever done it. Both LeBron and kawhi had help from one of warriors big 3 missing time. Draymond is better than Klay, so kawhi had it tougher. Kawhi did for Toronto what LeBron did for Cleveland but Kawhi did it better and easier despite playing tougher teams in the east. 2016 warriors are the same as 2019 warriors just replace Cousins with Barnes. So are 2019 raptors just better than 2016 cavs? No! Kawhi is just better than LeBron. I don't see raptors with any version of Lebron replacing Kawhi in 2019 playoffs and winning the title, they would lose to 76ers or bucks. LeBron and Siakam is a horrible fit because Siakam can't shoot threes. I definitely could see kawhi/Irving/love winning in 2016.

[TheGOATRises007]

They'd get worse.

[Franco]

I don't see this going well at all.

Looking at defense:
09 Lebron is a much, much better defender than Kawhi. This is arguably Lebron's defensive peak. I see a +3 or more advantage for Lebron on defense.

Looking at offense:
Not only is Lebron also much, much better (equal or better scorer, 3x the playmaker, equal rebounder) on offense, but the Cavs offense is tailor made for Lebron, and basically exactly the opposite of what Kawhi needs. Lebron is at his best surrounded by shooters who need help having shots created for them. Kawhi is best with good playmakers who can get him good looks and allow him to iso to mix things up.

I'd say 45-50 wins and probably lose in the first round.

I guess Westbrook is a better rebounder than Kawhi as well now? Cause that's what LeBron gets, those cherry pick rebounds. Yet, kawhi still matches him in rebounding stats.

Actually, every rebound Kawhi ever got was cherrypicked. More than that, I estima-te that 150% of his rebounds are Cherrypicking and therefore don’t count, putting him at -5rpg.

See? I can make unsubstantiated arguments too.

Defense I think you're digging too deep into stats again as well. LeBron was playing against horrible offensive teams like hawks and pistons, so his defensive stats are enhanced.

So the Cavs won 66 and 61 games against the Hawks and Pistons? Huh... funny how that works out.

Kawhi shut down the MVP Giannis, not old fatass Paul Pierce.

LeBron actually slapped Pierce upside down the court in the 2010 series, it was Rondo who obliterated the Cavs. Also, Giannis wasn’t stopped by Kawhi

Siakam did just as well on Giannis, and their entire defense was keyed on him. Unless you also want to make the argument about how Kawhi’s presence sucked Giannis’ free throws out of the rim.

Kawhi had the much bigger defensive role in the biggest games than LeBron in 09/2010. Maybe 2016 when LeBron guarded Curry comes closer but not 2009/10.

Kawhi wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team for that playoff run.

[Franco]

Are you guys just making threads to bait / troll HBK? Lol

Exactly, telling me Lebron is better is trolling. Lebron can't guard Giannis, can't score points on the volume\efficiency that Kawhi does, can't shoot like Kawhi and you said yourself that Kawhi is the better rebounder. I don't see any path in the playoffs that Lebron won more difficult than Kawhi's 2019 playoff path. Lebron was able to coast in the eastern conference his entire career, the east was great by the time Kawhi came to the eastern conference. If Lebron's biggest argument was he lost in the 2nd round better than Kawhi did, than ok I guess. I know 2019 Kawhi playoffs holds up with every one of Lebron's ring years.

LeBron went against 3 top 10 defenses in a row, including the 1st ranked defense too, in 2012. Then the finals was against the 11th ranked one.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I don't see this going well at all.

Looking at defense:
09 Lebron is a much, much better defender than Kawhi. This is arguably Lebron's defensive peak. I see a +3 or more advantage for Lebron on defense.

Looking at offense:
Not only is Lebron also much, much better (equal or better scorer, 3x the playmaker, equal rebounder) on offense, but the Cavs offense is tailor made for Lebron, and basically exactly the opposite of what Kawhi needs. Lebron is at his best surrounded by shooters who need help having shots created for them. Kawhi is best with good playmakers who can get him good looks and allow him to iso to mix things up.

I'd say 45-50 wins and probably lose in the first round.

I guess Westbrook is a better rebounder than Kawhi as well now? Cause that's what LeBron gets, those cherry pick rebounds. Yet, kawhi still matches him in rebounding stats.

Actually, every rebound Kawhi ever got was cherrypicked. More than that, I estima-te that 150% of his rebounds are Cherrypicking and therefore don’t count, putting him at -5rpg.

See? I can make unsubstantiated arguments too.

Defense I think you're digging too deep into stats again as well. LeBron was playing against horrible offensive teams like hawks and pistons, so his defensive stats are enhanced.

So the Cavs won 66 and 61 games against the Hawks and Pistons? Huh... funny how that works out.

Kawhi shut down the MVP Giannis, not old fatass Paul Pierce.

LeBron actually slapped Pierce upside down the court in the 2010 series, it was Rondo who obliterated the Cavs. Also, Giannis wasn’t stopped by Kawhi

Siakam did just as well on Giannis, and their entire defense was keyed on him. Unless you also want to make the argument about how Kawhi’s presence sucked Giannis’ free throws out of the rim.

Kawhi had the much bigger defensive role in the biggest games than LeBron in 09/2010. Maybe 2016 when LeBron guarded Curry comes closer but not 2009/10.

Kawhi wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team for that playoff run.

LKN thinks Kawhi is the better rebounder than Lebron and thinks Lebron is better overall. So what does that tell you? Kawhi is stronger than Lebron and has bigger hands, his rebounding is better late in clutch games as well. Rebounding is close in stats but eye test says Leonard easily.

Giannis didn't struggle until the switch of Kawhi on him in games 3-6 happened.

At least you admit that Lebron lost to a team with the best player of Rajon Rondo, that's pretty sad actually. That would be like peak Leonard losing a series to the best player of peak Ben Simmons hahaha. Rondo was actually the celtics best player all playoffs, it was him and the senior citizen clinic. Kawhi would run that team over!

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Are you guys just making threads to bait / troll HBK? Lol

Exactly, telling me Lebron is better is trolling. Lebron can't guard Giannis, can't score points on the volume\efficiency that Kawhi does, can't shoot like Kawhi and you said yourself that Kawhi is the better rebounder. I don't see any path in the playoffs that Lebron won more difficult than Kawhi's 2019 playoff path. Lebron was able to coast in the eastern conference his entire career, the east was great by the time Kawhi came to the eastern conference. If Lebron's biggest argument was he lost in the 2nd round better than Kawhi did, than ok I guess. I know 2019 Kawhi playoffs holds up with every one of Lebron's ring years.

LeBron went against 3 top 10 defenses in a row, including the 1st ranked defense too, in 2012. Then the finals was against the 11th ranked one.

Maybe defense but he never faced three players the level of embiid, giannis,curry in 1 year. 3 teams anchored by embiid giannis draymond the 3 of the top 5 best defensive players in the league.

[LKN]

I guess Westbrook is a better rebounder than Kawhi as well now? Cause that's what LeBron gets, those cherry pick rebounds. Yet, kawhi still matches him in rebounding stats.

Actually, every rebound Kawhi ever got was cherrypicked. More than that, I estima-te that 150% of his rebounds are Cherrypicking and therefore don’t count, putting him at -5rpg.

See? I can make unsubstantiated arguments too.

Defense I think you're digging too deep into stats again as well. LeBron was playing against horrible offensive teams like hawks and pistons, so his defensive stats are enhanced.

So the Cavs won 66 and 61 games against the Hawks and Pistons? Huh... funny how that works out.

Kawhi shut down the MVP Giannis, not old fatass Paul Pierce.

LeBron actually slapped Pierce upside down the court in the 2010 series, it was Rondo who obliterated the Cavs. Also, Giannis wasn’t stopped by Kawhi

Siakam did just as well on Giannis, and their entire defense was keyed on him. Unless you also want to make the argument about how Kawhi’s presence sucked Giannis’ free throws out of the rim.

Kawhi had the much bigger defensive role in the biggest games than LeBron in 09/2010. Maybe 2016 when LeBron guarded Curry comes closer but not 2009/10.

Kawhi wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team for that playoff run.

LKN thinks Kawhi is the better rebounder than Lebron and thinks Lebron is better overall. So what does that tell you? Kawhi is stronger than Lebron and has bigger hands, his rebounding is better late in clutch games as well. Rebounding is close in stats but eye test says Leonard easily.

Giannis didn't struggle until the switch of Kawhi on him in games 3-6 happened.

At least you admit that Lebron lost to a team with the best player of Rajon Rondo, that's pretty sad actually. That would be like peak Leonard losing a series to the best player of peak Ben Simmons hahaha. Rondo was actually the celtics best player all playoffs, it was him and the senior citizen clinic. Kawhi would run that team over!

OMG don't drag me into this

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Actually, every rebound Kawhi ever got was cherrypicked. More than that, I estima-te that 150% of his rebounds are Cherrypicking and therefore don’t count, putting him at -5rpg.

See? I can make unsubstantiated arguments too.



So the Cavs won 66 and 61 games against the Hawks and Pistons? Huh... funny how that works out.



LeBron actually slapped Pierce upside down the court in the 2010 series, it was Rondo who obliterated the Cavs. Also, Giannis wasn’t stopped by Kawhi

Siakam did just as well on Giannis, and their entire defense was keyed on him. Unless you also want to make the argument about how Kawhi’s presence sucked Giannis’ free throws out of the rim.



Kawhi wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team for that playoff run.

LKN thinks Kawhi is the better rebounder than Lebron and thinks Lebron is better overall. So what does that tell you? Kawhi is stronger than Lebron and has bigger hands, his rebounding is better late in clutch games as well. Rebounding is close in stats but eye test says Leonard easily.

Giannis didn't struggle until the switch of Kawhi on him in games 3-6 happened.

At least you admit that Lebron lost to a team with the best player of Rajon Rondo, that's pretty sad actually. That would be like peak Leonard losing a series to the best player of peak Ben Simmons hahaha. Rondo was actually the celtics best player all playoffs, it was him and the senior citizen clinic. Kawhi would run that team over!

OMG don't drag me into this

You had those rebounding stats for Kawhi vs Lebron can you post those again.

[Franco]

I guess Westbrook is a better rebounder than Kawhi as well now? Cause that's what LeBron gets, those cherry pick rebounds. Yet, kawhi still matches him in rebounding stats.

Actually, every rebound Kawhi ever got was cherrypicked. More than that, I estima-te that 150% of his rebounds are Cherrypicking and therefore don’t count, putting him at -5rpg.

See? I can make unsubstantiated arguments too.

Defense I think you're digging too deep into stats again as well. LeBron was playing against horrible offensive teams like hawks and pistons, so his defensive stats are enhanced.

So the Cavs won 66 and 61 games against the Hawks and Pistons? Huh... funny how that works out.

Kawhi shut down the MVP Giannis, not old fatass Paul Pierce.

LeBron actually slapped Pierce upside down the court in the 2010 series, it was Rondo who obliterated the Cavs. Also, Giannis wasn’t stopped by Kawhi

Siakam did just as well on Giannis, and their entire defense was keyed on him. Unless you also want to make the argument about how Kawhi’s presence sucked Giannis’ free throws out of the rim.

Kawhi had the much bigger defensive role in the biggest games than LeBron in 09/2010. Maybe 2016 when LeBron guarded Curry comes closer but not 2009/10.

Kawhi wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team for that playoff run.

LKN thinks Kawhi is the better rebounder than Lebron and thinks Lebron is better overall. So what does that tell you? Kawhi is stronger than Lebron and has bigger hands, his rebounding is better late in clutch games as well. Rebounding is close in stats but eye test says Leonard easily.

Well actually my eyetest tells me that LeBron is exactly 42 times better than Kawhi as a rebounder. Nevermind the stats, this is the way to go!

Giannis didn't struggle until the switch of Kawhi on him in games 3-6 happened.

The Raptors as a whole adapted, there’s been plenty of analysis on their defense that series. Elgee’s for one.

At least you admit that Lebron lost to a team with the best player of Rajon Rondo, that's pretty sad actually. That would be like peak Leonard losing a series to the best player of peak Ben Simmons hahaha.

And Kawhi’s team won 47 games without him, also winning a clicking game 6 Vs the 3rd seeded Rockets by 40 points without him either. They even took a game off of Golden State the next season without Kawhi

Rondo was actually the celtics best player all playoffs, it was him and the senior citizen clinic. Kawhi would run that team over!

Kawhi didn’t even run over the inexperienced 76ers who have yet to prove anything. That Celtics team won a title two years prior and went on to take the Lakers to 7 games.

Meanwhile Kawhi beat the Magic who hasn’t been in the playoffs for almost a decade, Milwaukee who until that point never got out of the first round, and the 76ers who just the prior season got ragdolled by a Celtics team with no top 10 players in 5 games.

See? I can make outrageous claims too!

[Franco]

Exactly, telling me Lebron is better is trolling. Lebron can't guard Giannis, can't score points on the volume\efficiency that Kawhi does, can't shoot like Kawhi and you said yourself that Kawhi is the better rebounder. I don't see any path in the playoffs that Lebron won more difficult than Kawhi's 2019 playoff path. Lebron was able to coast in the eastern conference his entire career, the east was great by the time Kawhi came to the eastern conference. If Lebron's biggest argument was he lost in the 2nd round better than Kawhi did, than ok I guess. I know 2019 Kawhi playoffs holds up with every one of Lebron's ring years.

LeBron went against 3 top 10 defenses in a row, including the 1st ranked defense too, in 2012. Then the finals was against the 11th ranked one.

Maybe defense but he never faced three players the level of embiid, giannis,curry in 1 year. 3 teams anchored by embiid giannis draymond the 3 of the top 5 best defensive players in the league.

“Oh actually how good their defense is doesn’t matter because this criteria that I’m choosing doesn’t apply to LeBron’s runs, but it does to Kawhi’s”

LeBron went up against two top 5 defenses back to back (Raptors and Celtics), then against a better Golden State team than Kawhi, and still went ham on all of them too. This wasn’t even that long ago.

[HeartBreakKid]

Unless Kawhi Leonard grows to be 6'11 and 260, I don't see how he's stopping Dwight Howard. The Cavs couldn't deal with the mismatch inside outside of red hot shooting - replacing James with Leonard isn't going to fix their problems, might even make their defense worse.

[_Game7_]

They would get worse by allot. People have forgotten the beast that was 09 Lebron. He was at peak MJ level, maybe even a little better.