Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Actually, every rebound Kawhi ever got was cherrypicked. More than that, I estima-te that 150% of his rebounds are Cherrypicking and therefore don’t count, putting him at -5rpg.

See? I can make unsubstantiated arguments too.



So the Cavs won 66 and 61 games against the Hawks and Pistons? Huh... funny how that works out.



LeBron actually slapped Pierce upside down the court in the 2010 series, it was Rondo who obliterated the Cavs. Also, Giannis wasn’t stopped by Kawhi

Siakam did just as well on Giannis, and their entire defense was keyed on him. Unless you also want to make the argument about how Kawhi’s presence sucked Giannis’ free throws out of the rim.



Kawhi wasn’t even the best defensive player on his own team for that playoff run.

LKN thinks Kawhi is the better rebounder than Lebron and thinks Lebron is better overall. So what does that tell you? Kawhi is stronger than Lebron and has bigger hands, his rebounding is better late in clutch games as well. Rebounding is close in stats but eye test says Leonard easily.

Well actually my eyetest tells me that LeBron is exactly 42 times better than Kawhi as a rebounder. Nevermind the stats, this is the way to go!

Giannis didn't struggle until the switch of Kawhi on him in games 3-6 happened.

The Raptors as a whole adapted, there’s been plenty of analysis on their defense that series. Elgee’s for one.

At least you admit that Lebron lost to a team with the best player of Rajon Rondo, that's pretty sad actually. That would be like peak Leonard losing a series to the best player of peak Ben Simmons hahaha.

And Kawhi’s team won 47 games without him, also winning a clicking game 6 Vs the 3rd seeded Rockets by 40 points without him either. They even took a game off of Golden State the next season without Kawhi

Rondo was actually the celtics best player all playoffs, it was him and the senior citizen clinic. Kawhi would run that team over!

Kawhi didn’t even run over the inexperienced 76ers who have yet to prove anything. That Celtics team won a title two years prior and went on to take the Lakers to 7 games.

Meanwhile Kawhi beat the Magic who hasn’t been in the playoffs for almost a decade, Milwaukee who until that point never got out of the first round, and the 76ers who just the prior season got ragdolled by a Celtics team with no top 10 players in 5 games.

See? I can make outrageous claims too!

They won 61-67 games with Leonard playing 72 games, so pretty much a 65-70 win pace if Leonard plays 82 games. Without Leonard, they win 45? That is still a 25 win drop. When Leonard got injured in game 1 2017, spurs blew a 20 point lead and never won a game again. It will be a long time until they ever win a series again too.

Bucks not getting out of the 1st round in 2018 doesn't translate to 2019 because Giannis got better. How about that huh? Leonard is actually facing superstars in their primes and 20's. Not washed up KG who can barely jump anymore, did you see KG'S numbers in the finals?

76ers also added jimmy butler from the previous season and he's a top 15 player. Butler led twolves to a top 5 offense and defense when he was on the court in 2018. Him as a 2nd fiddell to embiid? Kawhi actually played players in their primes. 2010 was post prime KG and post prime Pierce on their last legs. Dwight Howard is a top 60 peak I guess?

Giannis 2019 > Dwight Howard 2009
Jimmy Butler 2019 > Paul pierce 2010
Embiid 2019 > kevin Garnett 2010

Tougher competition across the board.

[Franco]

LKN thinks Kawhi is the better rebounder than Lebron and thinks Lebron is better overall. So what does that tell you? Kawhi is stronger than Lebron and has bigger hands, his rebounding is better late in clutch games as well. Rebounding is close in stats but eye test says Leonard easily.

Well actually my eyetest tells me that LeBron is exactly 42 times better than Kawhi as a rebounder. Nevermind the stats, this is the way to go!

Giannis didn't struggle until the switch of Kawhi on him in games 3-6 happened.

The Raptors as a whole adapted, there’s been plenty of analysis on their defense that series. Elgee’s for one.

At least you admit that Lebron lost to a team with the best player of Rajon Rondo, that's pretty sad actually. That would be like peak Leonard losing a series to the best player of peak Ben Simmons hahaha.

And Kawhi’s team won 47 games without him, also winning a clicking game 6 Vs the 3rd seeded Rockets by 40 points without him either. They even took a game off of Golden State the next season without Kawhi

Rondo was actually the celtics best player all playoffs, it was him and the senior citizen clinic. Kawhi would run that team over!

Kawhi didn’t even run over the inexperienced 76ers who have yet to prove anything. That Celtics team won a title two years prior and went on to take the Lakers to 7 games.

Meanwhile Kawhi beat the Magic who hasn’t been in the playoffs for almost a decade, Milwaukee who until that point never got out of the first round, and the 76ers who just the prior season got ragdolled by a Celtics team with no top 10 players in 5 games.

See? I can make outrageous claims too!

They won 61-67 games with Leonard playing 72 games, so pretty much a 65-70 win pace if Leonard plays 82 games. Without Leonard, they win 45? That is still a 25 win drop. When Leonard got injured in game 1 2017, spurs blew a 20 point lead and never won a game again. It will be a long time until they ever win a series again too.

You are literally lying, and I already called you out on it before. Stop it. The Spurs lost 12 games with Kawhi in 2016, and 20 in 2017. How is he going to revert losses that happened with him on the floor?

Bucks not getting out of the 1st round in 2018 doesn't translate to 2019 because Giannis got better. How about that huh? Leonard is actually facing superstars in their primes and 20's. Not washed up KG who can barely jump anymore, did you see KG'S numbers in the finals?

Oh so you’re telling me that context matters? What a shocking conclusion!

Also, what the hell does it matter if KG was still at his peak or not? The teams are what matter, and Orlando was just as good, if not better, than the Bucks. The Celtics beat the same Orlando team that has the highest SRS in the league the very next round.

Also, facing playing in their primes? Embiid was injured and sick for half of the damn series

76ers also added jimmy butler from the previous season and he's a top 15 player. Butler led twolves to a top 5 offense and defense when he was on the court in 2018. Him as a 2nd fiddell to embiid? Kawhi actually played players in their primes. 2010 was post prime KG and post prime Pierce on their last legs. Dwight Howard is a top 60 peak I guess?

On their last legs? They were in the ECF two years later, and made the 2nd round with Brooklyn 4 years later. They went to the finals and pushed the Lakers to 7 that same season

You’re literally looking at big names and calling it a day.

Giannis 2019 > Dwight Howard 2009

Debatable.

Jimmy Butler 2019 > Paul pierce 2010

Probably

Embiid 2019 > kevin Garnett 2010

Even if Embiid was 100%, that would be debatable. The fact that he was limping for half the series makes this hilarious.

Tougher competition across the board.

[/quote][/quote]

“Hey the competition is tougher because I recognize more names!” is basically what you’re saying. The Celtics and Magic were better than any team Kawhi went through, including the injured to hell Golden State.

[homecourtloss]

Basically, Lebron pre-Miami was like a good defensive back who covers the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best receiver. Healtles Lebron was much more of a DB houdning the primary receiver. People are too caught up in explsoiveness or athelisicism. It's why guys like TD, Kobe, KG had such an impact on defense...they covered assignments that stifled the opponent. This is what Peak Kawhi does. or even peak Dwight.

I like how you group Kobe in there with guys like KG and Duncan (on defense), like come on bro, who you trying to fool here.

Kobe is a 9-time All-Defnesive player and guarded the toughest player for the Lakers until around 2011.

Earlier this thread...

1) Coahces vote on All-Defensive teams. Look at TD who has tons of All-D teams, and no DPOYs

[70sFan]

They would get worse because Cavs really needed James playmaking.

I love how team's best player define how good team is. Isiah Thomas "beat" Jordan, Bird and Magic. Kawhi "beat" Embiid+Butler, Giannis and Curry. Who cares that teams like 2013 and 2014 Spurs or 2008-10 Celtics were better than that? Or that 2012-14 Pacers were better defensively than Sixers? Embiid>Hibbert is all that matters, strength of team is defined by one player.

Kawhi actually faced tougher competition than James in 2009, that's not a debate. The thing is, he lost against the team that was very good (roughly Bucks-good) while playing arguably the best basketball in his career. Because (shock!) his team wasn't good enough. Raptors were much more talented and much better than 2009 Cavs. They faced better competition but they were also much better.

Not to mention that James with comparable roster proved that he could beat better teams on 2012. But no, "Wade>Lowry" is all that matters. Nothing else.

[Dr Spaceman]

This is genuinely one of the worst threads I’ve seen in my 5 year stint on this board. 5 pages of complete nonsense.

[Baski]

They don't get close to 60 wins, get tougher playoff matchups as a result, and likely lose in the 1st round

[Baski]

This was actually the thing I was thinking about. Defnesively, that Cavs tream would be nasty. Much more akin to the mid 00's Piston teams. The 09 Magic themsleves were more anchored on Dwight's defense also. I'm a little surprised that eveyrone is soley focussed on the offnesive side of the ball.

Which Kawhi is peak Kawhi to you? The defensive beast is is nowhere near the offensive beast of last year defensively, and vice versa. Either way the Cavs are suffering a heavy dropoff on one end of the floor.

As a side note, am I the only one who was impressed with Lebron's 2009/2010 seasons? If last year's Kawhi is being legitimately compared to him then maybe it wasn't that great a peak.

[Baski]

That's fair, but the Cavs lost to the Magic, didn't they? I have big issues with LEbron's defense or lack of....

IIRC, Orlando's player saw their fg % plummet man on man vs lebron and orlando's fg% plummeted when he was on the floor. Lebron wasn't the issue there. Besides ,we're talking about peak kawhi. Whatever issues you have with 09 lebron defensively, he protects the tim and switches well. Post 16 Kawhi does neither and his man defense became valuable when he had two-3 guys helping him each possesion

Lebron wasn't guarding the hot hand. I'm not going to rehash the 2009 series, but much like the 2010 too, Lebron wasn't taking offensive player who was causing the Cavs issues either season. A far cry from Lebron who took Rose's lunch in Miami.

Again, stats are nice, but opponent and who the player is guarding matters far more. With Peak Kawhi, we see him guard the hot player regardless of positon. That's tremendous utility, akin to what KG used to do.

When was this?

[freethedevil]

Basically, Lebron pre-Miami was like a good defensive back who covers the opponent's 2nd or 3rd best receiver. Healtles Lebron was much more of a DB houdning the primary receiver. People are too caught up in explsoiveness or athelisicism. It's why guys like TD, Kobe, KG had such an impact on defense...they covered assignments that stifled the opponent. This is what Peak Kawhi does. or even peak Dwight.

I like how you group Kobe in there with guys like KG and Duncan (on defense), like come on bro, who you trying to fool here.

Kobe is a 9-time All-Defnesive player and guarded the toughest player for the Lakers until around 2011..

Even if we assume all his inclusions were deserved(thyey weren't), getting in on an all-defensive team as a wing doesn't put you near the level of a top tier big.

And funny to cite his man defense when he was one of the most frequrntly blown by guy in the league. The second his offense took off, he was hidden on the opponents weakest offensive players.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Well actually my eyetest tells me that LeBron is exactly 42 times better than Kawhi as a rebounder. Nevermind the stats, this is the way to go!



The Raptors as a whole adapted, there’s been plenty of analysis on their defense that series. Elgee’s for one.



And Kawhi’s team won 47 games without him, also winning a clicking game 6 Vs the 3rd seeded Rockets by 40 points without him either. They even took a game off of Golden State the next season without Kawhi



Kawhi didn’t even run over the inexperienced 76ers who have yet to prove anything. That Celtics team won a title two years prior and went on to take the Lakers to 7 games.

Meanwhile Kawhi beat the Magic who hasn’t been in the playoffs for almost a decade, Milwaukee who until that point never got out of the first round, and the 76ers who just the prior season got ragdolled by a Celtics team with no top 10 players in 5 games.

See? I can make outrageous claims too!

They won 61-67 games with Leonard playing 72 games, so pretty much a 65-70 win pace if Leonard plays 82 games. Without Leonard, they win 45? That is still a 25 win drop. When Leonard got injured in game 1 2017, spurs blew a 20 point lead and never won a game again. It will be a long time until they ever win a series again too.

You are literally lying, and I already called you out on it before. Stop it. The Spurs lost 12 games with Kawhi in 2016, and 20 in 2017. How is he going to revert losses that happened with him on the floor?

Bucks not getting out of the 1st round in 2018 doesn't translate to 2019 because Giannis got better. How about that huh? Leonard is actually facing superstars in their primes and 20's. Not washed up KG who can barely jump anymore, did you see KG'S numbers in the finals?

Oh so you’re telling me that context matters? What a shocking conclusion!

Also, what the hell does it matter if KG was still at his peak or not? The teams are what matter, and Orlando was just as good, if not better, than the Bucks. The Celtics beat the same Orlando team that has the highest SRS in the league the very next round.

Also, facing playing in their primes? Embiid was injured and sick for half of the damn series

76ers also added jimmy butler from the previous season and he's a top 15 player. Butler led twolves to a top 5 offense and defense when he was on the court in 2018. Him as a 2nd fiddell to embiid? Kawhi actually played players in their primes. 2010 was post prime KG and post prime Pierce on their last legs. Dwight Howard is a top 60 peak I guess?

On their last legs? They were in the ECF two years later, and made the 2nd round with Brooklyn 4 years later. They went to the finals and pushed the Lakers to 7 that same season

You’re literally looking at big names and calling it a day.

Giannis 2019 > Dwight Howard 2009

Debatable.

Jimmy Butler 2019 > Paul pierce 2010

Probably

Embiid 2019 > kevin Garnett 2010

Even if Embiid was 100%, that would be debatable. The fact that he was limping for half the series makes this hilarious.

Tougher competition across the board.

[/quote]

“Hey the competition is tougher because I recognize more names!” is basically what you’re saying. The Celtics and Magic were better than any team Kawhi went through, including the injured to hell Golden State.[/quote]

They averaged 64 wins a game with Kawhi in 2016/2017 and now they fell off to about 45 wins without him. Nearly a 20 game drop. Spurs still have a better coach to hold things together a little bit better than lebrons cavs. They also have Lamarcus who is a terrible 2nd option but decent when he's pretending to be a 1st option. So cavs got worse without LeBron when he left after 2010? They didn't win anything with LeBron anyway. LeBron was always pounding on the weak eastern conference and that's why his stats and team records were enhanced.

Players being in their primes is what ultimately matters. You say Embiid was sick but KG couldn't even run in the 2010 finals he was so damn washed up. KG said himself in 2010/2011/2012 years he was the most exhausted he has ever been, that's an old man right there! He averaged 15 points and 5 rebounds in the finals! That's almost 1/3 of the rebounds he averaged in his prime! KG was physically washed up and carried by Rondo in those playoffs.

2010 Celtics were on their last legs facing a 2010 Lakers team that was on their last legs and it equals a game 7. Lakers got swept the next year and Celtics were embarrassed by Miami the next year as well. KG in 2012 was like Hakeem in 1998, nobody cares about beating his washed up ass at that point.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

IIRC, Orlando's player saw their fg % plummet man on man vs lebron and orlando's fg% plummeted when he was on the floor. Lebron wasn't the issue there. Besides ,we're talking about peak kawhi. Whatever issues you have with 09 lebron defensively, he protects the tim and switches well. Post 16 Kawhi does neither and his man defense became valuable when he had two-3 guys helping him each possesion

Lebron wasn't guarding the hot hand. I'm not going to rehash the 2009 series, but much like the 2010 too, Lebron wasn't taking offensive player who was causing the Cavs issues either season. A far cry from Lebron who took Rose's lunch in Miami.

Again, stats are nice, but opponent and who the player is guarding matters far more. With Peak Kawhi, we see him guard the hot player regardless of positon. That's tremendous utility, akin to what KG used to do.

When was this?

2019 playoffs guarded Jimmy butler or Giannis.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

This is genuinely one of the worst threads I’ve seen in my 5 year stint on this board. 5 pages of complete nonsense.

KG was never the same player after his 09 injury, he turned into a soft washed up bastard. Go watch the 2010 finals if you don't believe me. Giannis is at the peak of his powers and just won MVP. I don't know how you think these two are comparable. Kawhi took down the better players and teams.

That's why LeBron's 2012 takeover game vs Celtics is the most overrated playoff performance in NBA history. You are playing KG who is self admitted "exhausted" just based on how old and washed up he was. I watched KG play after his 09 injury and it was sad, he couldn't be aggressive anymore and lost all his athleticism.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

They would get worse because Cavs really needed James playmaking.

I love how team's best player define how good team is. Isiah Thomas "beat" Jordan, Bird and Magic. Kawhi "beat" Embiid+Butler, Giannis and Curry. Who cares that teams like 2013 and 2014 Spurs or 2008-10 Celtics were better than that? Or that 2012-14 Pacers were better defensively than Sixers? Embiid>Hibbert is all that matters, strength of team is defined by one player.

Kawhi actually faced tougher competition than James in 2009, that's not a debate. The thing is, he lost against the team that was very good (roughly Bucks-good) while playing arguably the best basketball in his career. Because (shock!) his team wasn't good enough. Raptors were much more talented and much better than 2009 Cavs. They faced better competition but they were also much better.

Not to mention that James with comparable roster proved that he could beat better teams on 2012. But no, "Wade>Lowry" is all that matters. Nothing else.

A teams best player takes the blame when his team loses and a teams best player gets credit when his team wins, that's how sports works.

Ignoring the context of whether players were in their primes or not is what makes you overrate LeBron from 2010-2013. He played KG in 2011/2012 and Duncan in 2013, those guys were just Hibbert level players at that point in their careers. Big deal! Kawhi is beating players in the middle of their primes like Embiid Giannis Curry.

[Dr Spaceman]

This is genuinely one of the worst threads I’ve seen in my 5 year stint on this board. 5 pages of complete nonsense.

KG was never the same player after his 09 injury, he turned into a soft washed up bastard. Go watch the 2010 finals if you don't believe me. Giannis is at the peak of his powers and just won MVP. I don't know how you think these two are comparable. Kawhi took down the better players and teams.

That's why LeBron's 2012 takeover game vs Celtics is the most overrated playoff performance in NBA history. You are playing KG who is self admitted "exhausted" just based on how old and washed up he was. I watched KG play after his 09 injury and it was sad, he couldn't be aggressive anymore and lost all his athleticism.

Dude I don’t care what you think about KG. You are relying on complete falsehoods to make an absurd case which has been repeatedly and effectively pointed out to you. Most people can’t resist responding when they see arguments that are this easily dismantled which is why this has blown up to 5 pages. I’d understand this if you were Kawhi’s Burner accounts or something...

[70sFan]

They would get worse because Cavs really needed James playmaking.

I love how team's best player define how good team is. Isiah Thomas "beat" Jordan, Bird and Magic. Kawhi "beat" Embiid+Butler, Giannis and Curry. Who cares that teams like 2013 and 2014 Spurs or 2008-10 Celtics were better than that? Or that 2012-14 Pacers were better defensively than Sixers? Embiid>Hibbert is all that matters, strength of team is defined by one player.

Kawhi actually faced tougher competition than James in 2009, that's not a debate. The thing is, he lost against the team that was very good (roughly Bucks-good) while playing arguably the best basketball in his career. Because (shock!) his team wasn't good enough. Raptors were much more talented and much better than 2009 Cavs. They faced better competition but they were also much better.

Not to mention that James with comparable roster proved that he could beat better teams on 2012. But no, "Wade>Lowry" is all that matters. Nothing else.

A teams best player takes the blame when his team loses and a teams best player gets credit when his team wins, that's how sports works.

Ignoring the context of whether players were in their primes or not is what makes you overrate LeBron from 2010-2013. He played KG in 2011/2012 and Duncan in 2013, those guys were just Hibbert level players at that point in their careers. Big deal! Kawhi is beating players in the middle of their primes like Embiid Giannis Curry.

That's how the sport works for uninformed and delusional stans. Real basketball fans understand that basketball is a team game and you can play well in a loss and vice versa.

I don't ignore that KG was past his prime, but I understand that he played on extremely good and talented team. That's something you can't get, Boston Celtics and San Antonio Spurs were elite opponents, far better than Philadelphia 76ers. Hell, 2012-14 Pacers were better, more experienced than Sixers.

There is so much more in basketball than just first options - coaching, talent, depth, chemistry, system, defense. It's beyond me how someone who called himself a Spurs fan can't see how incredible 2013 and 2014 SAS team was. Yeah, Duncan was past his prime but all things considered they were extremely tough to beat. They even beat OKC team who had two of the best players in the world.

Lastly, 2013 Duncan is better than sick version of Embiid Raptors faced in playoffs. It's not relevant to my point, just additional point to this discussion.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I like how you group Kobe in there with guys like KG and Duncan (on defense), like come on bro, who you trying to fool here.

Kobe is a 9-time All-Defnesive player and guarded the toughest player for the Lakers until around 2011..

Even if we assume all his inclusions were deserved(thyey weren't), getting in on an all-defensive team as a wing doesn't put you near the level of a top tier big.

And funny to cite his man defense when he was one of the most frequrntly blown by guy in the league. The second his offense took off, he was hidden on the opponents weakest offensive players.

Huh? Kobe was one fo the all-time great lockdown defenders. The main criticism was that he would play safety later in his career, a by product of havign to coer for both his and Smush/Fisher's man. On what planet were people blowing by Kobe??

[HBK_Kliq_33]

This is genuinely one of the worst threads I’ve seen in my 5 year stint on this board. 5 pages of complete nonsense.

KG was never the same player after his 09 injury, he turned into a soft washed up bastard. Go watch the 2010 finals if you don't believe me. Giannis is at the peak of his powers and just won MVP. I don't know how you think these two are comparable. Kawhi took down the better players and teams.

That's why LeBron's 2012 takeover game vs Celtics is the most overrated playoff performance in NBA history. You are playing KG who is self admitted "exhausted" just based on how old and washed up he was. I watched KG play after his 09 injury and it was sad, he couldn't be aggressive anymore and lost all his athleticism.

Dude I don’t care what you think about KG. You are relying on complete falsehoods to make an absurd case which has been repeatedly and effectively pointed out to you. Most people can’t resist responding when they see arguments that are this easily dismantled which is why this has blown up to 5 pages. I’d understand this if you were Kawhi’s Burner accounts or something...

Pointing out facts that LeBron fans don't want to admit. Not even knocking on KG, he had a serious injury when he was past 30 years old and declined. That's normal! I am just making people aware that KG was closer to Hibbert than he was Embiid or Giannis.

You just don't like Leonard personally and can't stomach the facts I tell ya. That's not my problem, I simply call it how I see it.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I like how you group Kobe in there with guys like KG and Duncan (on defense), like come on bro, who you trying to fool here.

Kobe is a 9-time All-Defnesive player and guarded the toughest player for the Lakers until around 2011.

Earlier this thread...

1) Coahces vote on All-Defensive teams. Look at TD who has tons of All-D teams, and no DPOYs

Not sure why you're quoting that like it means something. The poster said the media voted for All-D, so I pointed out that coaches did, and that the results were far better than the DPOY award

[Sublime187]

Mods lock this up please...

[HBK_Kliq_33]

They would get worse because Cavs really needed James playmaking.

I love how team's best player define how good team is. Isiah Thomas "beat" Jordan, Bird and Magic. Kawhi "beat" Embiid+Butler, Giannis and Curry. Who cares that teams like 2013 and 2014 Spurs or 2008-10 Celtics were better than that? Or that 2012-14 Pacers were better defensively than Sixers? Embiid>Hibbert is all that matters, strength of team is defined by one player.

Kawhi actually faced tougher competition than James in 2009, that's not a debate. The thing is, he lost against the team that was very good (roughly Bucks-good) while playing arguably the best basketball in his career. Because (shock!) his team wasn't good enough. Raptors were much more talented and much better than 2009 Cavs. They faced better competition but they were also much better.

Not to mention that James with comparable roster proved that he could beat better teams on 2012. But no, "Wade>Lowry" is all that matters. Nothing else.

A teams best player takes the blame when his team loses and a teams best player gets credit when his team wins, that's how sports works.

Ignoring the context of whether players were in their primes or not is what makes you overrate LeBron from 2010-2013. He played KG in 2011/2012 and Duncan in 2013, those guys were just Hibbert level players at that point in their careers. Big deal! Kawhi is beating players in the middle of their primes like Embiid Giannis Curry.

That's how the sport works for uninformed and delusional stans. Real basketball fans understand that basketball is a team game and you can play well in a loss and vice versa.

I don't ignore that KG was past his prime, but I understand that he played on extremely good and talented team. That's something you can't get, Boston Celtics and San Antonio Spurs were elite opponents, far better than Philadelphia 76ers. Hell, 2012-14 Pacers were better, more experienced than Sixers.

There is so much more in basketball than just first options - coaching, talent, depth, chemistry, system, defense. It's beyond me how someone who called himself a Spurs fan can't see how incredible 2013 and 2014 SAS team was. Yeah, Duncan was past his prime but all things considered they were extremely tough to beat. They even beat OKC team who had two of the best players in the world.

Lastly, 2013 Duncan is better than sick version of Embiid Raptors faced in playoffs. It's not relevant to my point, just additional point to this discussion.

The system works better when you actually have players in their primes. If the best teams are a bunch of washed up players, than consider it a weak era.

Embiid was the league leader in BPM going into the east finals, you are underrating him. Embiid just had a tough matchup vs Marc Gadol. Duncan faced Marc Gasol in 2011 and play like garbage? Duncan also faced Pau in 2008 and didn't do much than either. Gasol brothers are tough to score on. That doesn't take away the fact that Embiid was better scorer/defender/rebounder than post prime KG.