Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[BadMofoPimp]

I am surprised there are not multiple pages of "Sign Shumpert, get rid of bum Fournier" since Imam is so much better than Evan

[Knightro]

Shattered confidence is literally a component of the TOS injury...that TOS surgeon says exactly that in that article:

"If you can’t define the problem, immediately people think that you’re making it up. And if people think that you’re making it up, and you have real pain, then that just makes you so much more frustrated and depressed. It also makes you start questioning yourself. ‘Is this real? Is there something actually wrong with me?’ And that just gets you down a really, really bad cycle. For patients that have chronic pain, especially if you don’t know why they have pain, it’s a psychological torment for them. People don’t take them seriously, people label them, people think that they’re making it up, people think that they’re weaklings, that they’re doing this for secondary gain.

Make no mistake. This is absolutely a confidence issue over a health issue. Every single person involved with the Magic that has talked publicly from Weltman to Hammond to Clifford have repeatedly hinted at the Magic's plan to rebuild Fultz's confidence without ever mentioning any sort of injury recovery. They've been extremely calculated with their words intentionally. There's a reason for that.

Most players who suffer any injury do not have the symptoms of that injury the day before they are injured.

Oh stop with that. Suffering an acute injury like an ankle sprain or ligament tear is a whole different animal than developing a syndrome or disorder over a period of time. You don't just go from perfectly healthy to riddled with thoracic outlet syndrome in one moment like you do with a trauma injury.

The 76ers medical staff actually had diagnosed it as a scapular injury long before TOS entered the equation.

This is false. Surgeon Ben Kibler of the Shoulder Center of Kentucky is who formally diagnosed Fultz with scapular muscle imbalance, not the Sixers. The Sixers ran Fultz through a wide variety of medial examinations and found there to be nothing at all wrong with his shoulder from a structural perspective. Kibler also stressed, as the Sixers did, that Fultz had no structural damage to his shoulder.

Obviously he never had scapular muscle imbalance as that takes a long time to heal because in a true scapular muscle imbalance the body and muscles need to be retrained. However, the Sixers announced barely 3 weeks later than this "diagnosis" was almost healed and 4 weeks later they announced it was completely healed.

When a player essentially decides to bench himself for medical reasons, doctors have to say it's something. The Sixers nor any other NBA team, even if they think a player is 100% faking it, are never going to publicly suggest a player isn't hurt if the player says they're hurt.

Well of course he is saying that...he was the one responsible for initially "tweaking" Fultz' shot that TOS specialists have speculated as the source of the injury.

This is also false. Fultz allegedly developed TOS between July and September of 2017. He didn't begin working with Hanlen until the summer of *2018* in an effort to rebuild his jumper.

[ezzzp]

Make no mistake. This is absolutely a confidence issue over a health issue. Every single person involved with the Magic that has talked publicly from Weltman to Hammond to Clifford have repeatedly hinted at the Magic's plan to rebuild Fultz's confidence without ever mentioning any sort of injury recovery. They've been extremely calculated with their words intentionally. There's a reason for that.

Nah...That statement was a TOS surgeon describing symptoms of his patients with TOS...the confidence issue is based on the effects of the injury + the issues related with its treatment.

The Magic FO is doing what the Philadelphia FO failed to do - protect their player.

They are controlling the language so that the media can't spin it and link it to the series of misdiagnoses while with 76ers...and to also limit exactly what people on this thread are doing - speculating on every word and inventing theories about a subject that they have zero expertise in and are not even remotely close enough to the inner circle to know anything about.

Oh stop with that. Suffering an acute injury like an ankle sprain or ligament tear is a whole different animal than developing a syndrome or disorder over a period of time. You don't just go from perfectly healthy to riddled with thoracic outlet syndrome in one moment like you do with a trauma injury.

Trauma is literally one of the known causes of TOS...Mayo Clinic: "A traumatic event, such as a car accident, can cause internal changes that then compress the nerves in the thoracic outlet. The onset of symptoms related to a traumatic accident often is delayed."

In addition, the symptoms of TOS can escalate gradually...so he could have been tolerating them for a while without the discomfort being enough to impact his performance.

This is false. Surgeon Ben Kibler of the Shoulder Center of Kentucky is who formally diagnosed Fultz with scapular muscle imbalance, not the Sixers. The Sixers ran Fultz through a wide variety of medial examinations and found there to be nothing at all wrong with his shoulder from a structural perspective.

No, the 76ers medical staff were giving him cortizone shots to relieve swelling and inflammation AND the 76ers FO were completely involved with sending him to a specialist (Kibler).

This is also false. Fultz allegedly developed TOS between July and September of 2017. He didn't begin working with Hanlen until the summer of *2018* in an effort to rebuild his jumper.

I had the trainer confused, it was his first trainer Keith Williams who Fultz trained with over the summer of 2017.

Brett Brown in September 2017:

“Markelle has made some personal adjustments to his shot since we last saw him in Vegas, we’ve done stuff with him but really he’s been with his personal trainer over the month of August and since Summer League ended,” said Brown. “He chose to look at some different things on his shot; heart’s in the right place, trying to improve. Slowly, we’re coming back into it and trying to recalibrate and get it back.”

Either way, the changing of his shot has been speculated as one of the possible reasons for the TOS. Williams later said it wasn't him who changed his shot and he has refused to comment further on it.

[yoyojw17]

There's a significant amount of circumstantial evidence that could lead anyone to reasonably assume that Markelle Fultz does not have/has never had a significant shoulder injury and rather is suffering from shattered confidence/the yips.

Shattered confidence is literally a component of the TOS injury...that TOS surgeon says exactly that in that article:

"If you can’t define the problem, immediately people think that you’re making it up. And if people think that you’re making it up, and you have real pain, then that just makes you so much more frustrated and depressed. It also makes you start questioning yourself. ‘Is this real? Is there something actually wrong with me?’ And that just gets you down a really, really bad cycle. For patients that have chronic pain, especially if you don’t know why they have pain, it’s a psychological torment for them. People don’t take them seriously, people label them, people think that they’re making it up, people think that they’re weaklings, that they’re doing this for secondary gain."

Fultz showed zero signs of TOS in high school. He showed zero signs of TOS in college. He showed zero signs of TOS in the predraft process. He showed zero signs of TOS in July 2017 at the Summer League. So he and his agent want us to believe that he developed a very rare medical condition that effects fewer than 200,000 people per year in between July 9th, 2017 and September 28th, 2017?

Most players who suffer any injury do not have the symptoms of that injury the day before they are injured.

And the timing of this medical issue just so happens to coincide with him also developing such a severe hitch in his shot that he's a gone from a No. 1 overall pick caliber talent to a player who quite literally can't shoot a basketball anymore? C'mon now.

The 76ers medical staff actually had diagnosed it as a scapular injury long before TOS entered the equation.

A hitch in his shot is related to the symptoms of TOS: "In neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome, nerve compromise can lead to sensory changes such as numbness, tingling, pain and potential weakness or early fatigue in the arm and hand."

Its very likely that Fultz developed that hitch by altering his mechanics to compensate for something feeling off farther down the kinetic chain.

[quote="Knightro"]His own trainer (now former trainer) Drew Hanlen said it was the yips on June 22, 2018...[/quote]

Well of course he is saying that...he was the one responsible for initially "tweaking" Fultz' shot that TOS specialists have speculated as the source of the injury.[/quote][/quote]

He just honestly didn't know better at the time. The desire to tweak his shot was of Fultz's own want. He pursued hanlen most likely and hanlen put him on a regiment. A regiment that I wholeheartedly believe ended up overworking that shooting stroke and developing the TOS. It's neither person's fault.... just Fultz's body reacted unexpectedly. SOOOOOOO..... when hanlen goes from having a player that's working on his jump shots and making improvements.... to having hitches and losing confidence as you have eluded to as being TOS resultants.... then the first thing that might come to his head is...."The yips".... not the medical term called "JOFOEMNN NFOIEJ syndrome" that took umpteen doctor visits to figure out from the process of elimination. I bet they have buried the hatchet by now as well now that everything has come to light.

we just need to stop speculating and wait for the 2 weeks from now. Bet a lot of these frowns will turn upside down.

EDIT: Or whichever shooting coach. lol.

[KillMonger]

Well if it works out and we get a healthy fultz we should be fined for robbery.

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[NavalAviator94]

Well if it works out and we get a healthy fultz we should be fined for robbery.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

We are so due some luck.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

[Knightro]

No...That statement was a TOS surgeon describing symptoms of his patients with TOS...the confidence issue is based on the effects of the injury + the issues related with its treatment.

The Magic FO is doing what the Philadelphia FO failed to do - protect their player.

They are controlling the language so that the media can't spin it and link it to the series of misdiagnoses while with 76ers...and to also limit exactly what people on this thread are doing - speculating on every word and inventing theories about a subject that they have zero expertise in and are not even remotely close enough to the inner circle to know anything about.

The Sixers quite literally protected and babied Fultz as well as any reasonable NBA team could have expected them to do considering how much he and his management team at best misled and at worst outright lied to them throughout this whole process.

These are some indisputable facts in this situation.

-Markelle Fultz changed his shot form between July 2017 and September 2017 *without* consulting the Philadelphia 76ers coaching staff of any planned changes. We know this is true. The only thing we don't know is if...

A. Fultz made changes to his jumper because his arm/shoulder was hurting
B. The changes Fultz tried to make to his jumper caused his arm/shoulder to start hurting
C. Fultz tried to make changes to his jumper that failed miserably to the point he developed the yips/a confidence of crisis. And from there he essentially made up a phantom injury excuse rather than admit he screwed himself up

-When Fultz showed up to training camp late September 2017 and the team realized exactly how messed up his new shot was, Fultz did *not* inform the team that he changed his shot because of an injury he suffered during the summer or because of pain he was currently experiencing. When the team and Fultz were both forced to address it publicly to the media, neither side suggested in any way, shape or form that Fultz's new janky shot form had *anything* to do with an injury. That it was merely Fultz working through adjustments he made to his shot in an effort to adjust to the longer NBA 3PT line.

-Neither Fultz nor the team made a single comment (despite both parties being asked about it on a daily basis) about an injury negatively affecting his horrific shot form until October 9th, two full weeks after training camp opened.

Trauma is literally one of the known causes of TOS...Mayo Clinic: "A traumatic event, such as a car accident, can cause internal changes that then compress the nerves in the thoracic outlet. The onset of symptoms related to a traumatic accident often is delayed."

In addition, the symptoms of TOS can escalate gradually...so he could have been tolerating them for a while without the discomfort being enough to impact his performance.

Quite literally to this day neither Fultz nor the Sixers have never copped to any sort of traumatic event happening between July-September. In fact, both parties have denied it.

So we can rule out an anatomical defect, because if one existed Fultz would have presumably opted for surgery to correct it.

Since all parties involved have denied it, we have no choice but to rule out a traumatic event.

That means the only realistic conclusion that would have caused Fultz to develop this very rare neurological disorder over such a short period of time would be repetitive activity - AKA attempting to alter his jumper form.

HOWEVER...

Fultz *and* his uncle/family friend/original trainer Keith Williams have forcefully denied that Fultz attempted to change his shot first which caused his injury. Instead they both say that Fultz changed his shot because he was struggling with an injury and he would have never attempted to alter his shot otherwise.

So essentially we're being forced to believe based on his own words and the words of his management team that Markelle Fultz developed thoracic outlet syndrome over a three month period with no legitimate explanation for how he developed it and THEN he altered his jumper to the point of no return in a futile effort to ease his pain.

No, the 76ers medical staff were giving him cortizone shots to relieve swelling and inflammation AND the 76ers FO were completely involved with sending him to a specialist (Kibler).

The Sixers gave Fultz *a* single cortisone shot a couple of days before Fultz went public with the fact he had soreness. But don't be so naive about that. Teams across all levels of sports give cortisone shots and toradol shots to athletes all the time when athletes have soreness, but no structural damage. 90% of those cases go completely unreported and this one wouldn't have been reported either, but Fultz's agent brought it up on his own 3 weeks after it happened.

And yes, the Sixers were very much involved in sending Fultz to the surgeon for another opinion, but because they otherwise couldn't find anything wrong with Fultz's shoulder/arm.

Every scenario is different, but since mention Ben Uzoh a lot as an example. Uzoh opened admitted that he felt the effects of TOS for *FOUR YEARS* before the pain became so untenable that he couldn't play basketball anymore.

And we're supposed to believe that in less than three months time, with no known anatomical defects or traumatic events that Markelle Fultz developed TOS so badly that it took him from a near unanimous No. 1 overall pick to a guy who quite literally can't play basketball at all?

[Knightro]

He just honestly didn't know better at the time. The desire to tweak his shot was of Fultz's own want. He pursued hanlen most likely and hanlen put him on a regiment. A regiment that I wholeheartedly believe ended up overworking that shooting stroke and developing the TOS. It's neither person's fault.... just Fultz's body reacted unexpectedly. SOOOOOOO..... when hanlen goes from having a player that's working on his jump shots and making improvements.... to having hitches and losing confidence as you have eluded to as being TOS resultants.... then the first thing that might come to his head is...."The yips".... not the medical term called "JOFOEMNN NFOIEJ syndrome" that took umpteen doctor visits to figure out from the process of elimination. I bet they have buried the hatchet by now as well now that everything has come to light.

The main flaw in this logic is that Fultz and his original trainer Keith Williams have both come out and said Fultz absolutely did NOT plan to alter or tweak his shot in the three months between his first Summer League and his first training camp in any way.

They both forcefully said that the only reason Fultz altered his shot form is because he was hurting.

So if you believe that to be true, then there's no reasonable explanation for how he actually developed TOS in the first place.

[yoyojw17]

He just honestly didn't know better at the time. The desire to tweak his shot was of Fultz's own want. He pursued hanlen most likely and hanlen put him on a regiment. A regiment that I wholeheartedly believe ended up overworking that shooting stroke and developing the TOS. It's neither person's fault.... just Fultz's body reacted unexpectedly. SOOOOOOO..... when hanlen goes from having a player that's working on his jump shots and making improvements.... to having hitches and losing confidence as you have eluded to as being TOS resultants.... then the first thing that might come to his head is...."The yips".... not the medical term called "JOFOEMNN NFOIEJ syndrome" that took umpteen doctor visits to figure out from the process of elimination. I bet they have buried the hatchet by now as well now that everything has come to light.

The main flaw in this logic is that Fultz and his original trainer Keith Williams have both come out and said Fultz absolutely did NOT plan to alter or tweak his shot in the three months between his first Summer League and his first training camp in any way.

They both forcefully said that the only reason Fultz altered his shot form is because he was hurting.

So if you believe that to be true, then there's no reasonable explanation for how he actually developed TOS in the first place.

Sheer overusage. Repeating something over and over and over again.... whether different or not could possibly irritate and inflame ... I just specifically remember him saying he was taking an excessive amount of shot to work on his jumper. I personally do not remember with who but i do know that he really tried to IMPROVE his shooting for becoming a better fit for philly that drafted him.... and FYI... i applaud all of you that has the patience to dig up quotes and everything. lol

so needless to say.... that to me could have been the start of it all. I just want to see the kid succeed.... and especially with us. Just because the front office doesn't put everything on a billboard doesn't mean there has to be a conspiracy for us to research and put things together. When they say all is well and we just have to be patient, that is what they mean. I totally see how it can be discouraging, after all, we have been through over the last few years with this franchise.... but I really like what WeHam is building.... and the mere fact that they DID NOT shore up the point guard position means to me that they believe that they have something.

[MagicStarwipe]

He just honestly didn't know better at the time. The desire to tweak his shot was of Fultz's own want. He pursued hanlen most likely and hanlen put him on a regiment. A regiment that I wholeheartedly believe ended up overworking that shooting stroke and developing the TOS. It's neither person's fault.... just Fultz's body reacted unexpectedly. SOOOOOOO..... when hanlen goes from having a player that's working on his jump shots and making improvements.... to having hitches and losing confidence as you have eluded to as being TOS resultants.... then the first thing that might come to his head is...."The yips".... not the medical term called "JOFOEMNN NFOIEJ syndrome" that took umpteen doctor visits to figure out from the process of elimination. I bet they have buried the hatchet by now as well now that everything has come to light.

The main flaw in this logic is that Fultz and his original trainer Keith Williams have both come out and said Fultz absolutely did NOT plan to alter or tweak his shot in the three months between his first Summer League and his first training camp in any way.

They both forcefully said that the only reason Fultz altered his shot form is because he was hurting.

So if you believe that to be true, then there's no reasonable explanation for how he actually developed TOS in the first place.

His shooting form was already noticeably different in Summer League.

[pepe1991]

There is also objective chance that Fultz was never good shooter, and much like Lonzo simply had solid college year on limited sample size.
He shot 41,3% for 3 but we talk about 25 games, 52 threes made sample size and pretty mediocre 64,9% FT shooting.

For example Lonzo made 80 threes at college on 41,2% and much like Fultz struggled from FT line ( 67%)

Lonzo flat out can't shoot and we have two years of evidence of it in nba.



There are also guys like Winslow (41% for 3 at college 67% FTs),
Josh Jackson ( 38% for 3, 56% FTs)
Dunn (37% for 3, 69% FTs)

who had respectful 3% but on limited attemps number during one year, that entered nba and simply did not have good enough shot to translate.

Problem is sample size, you have this kids playing 20-30 games and if they go 40/120 for 3 they get 33%, yet if they make 5 more they are now 38% three point shooters, and in reality over 30 games +/- 5 threes could be nothing but luck, sometimes shots just happend to fall, sometimes they roll over rim and fall off.

[Ducklett]

There is also objective chance that Fultz was never good shooter, and much like Lonzo simply had solid college year on limited sample size.
He shot 41,3% for 3 but we talk about 25 games, 52 threes made sample size and pretty mediocre 64,9% FT shooting.

For example Lonzo made 80 threes at college on 41,2% and much like Fultz struggled from FT line ( 67%)

Lonzo flat out can't shoot and we have two years of evidence of it in nba.



There are also guys like Winslow (41% for 3 at college 67% FTs),
Josh Jackson ( 38% for 3, 56% FTs)
Dunn (37% for 3, 69% FTs)

who had respectful 3% but on limited attemps number during one year, that entered nba and simply did not have good enough shot to translate.

Problem is sample size, you have this kids playing 20-30 games and if they go 40/120 for 3 they get 33%, yet if they make 5 more they are now 38% three point shooters, and in reality over 30 games +/- 5 threes could be nothing but luck, sometimes shots just happend to fall, sometimes they roll over rim and fall off.

Not questioning your post, but is there any examples of a player shooting bad from 3 that comes into the NBA 1 or 2 years in as a sharpshooter? Basically the opposite of these players?

[Xatticus]

There is also objective chance that Fultz was never good shooter, and much like Lonzo simply had solid college year on limited sample size.
He shot 41,3% for 3 but we talk about 25 games, 52 threes made sample size and pretty mediocre 64,9% FT shooting.

For example Lonzo made 80 threes at college on 41,2% and much like Fultz struggled from FT line ( 67%)

Lonzo flat out can't shoot and we have two years of evidence of it in nba.



There are also guys like Winslow (41% for 3 at college 67% FTs),
Josh Jackson ( 38% for 3, 56% FTs)
Dunn (37% for 3, 69% FTs)

who had respectful 3% but on limited attemps number during one year, that entered nba and simply did not have good enough shot to translate.

Problem is sample size, you have this kids playing 20-30 games and if they go 40/120 for 3 they get 33%, yet if they make 5 more they are now 38% three point shooters, and in reality over 30 games +/- 5 threes could be nothing but luck, sometimes shots just happend to fall, sometimes they roll over rim and fall off.

Not questioning your post, but is there any examples of a player shooting bad from 3 that comes into the NBA 1 or 2 years in as a sharpshooter? Basically the opposite of these players?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kawhi-leonard-1.html

[pepe1991]

There is also objective chance that Fultz was never good shooter, and much like Lonzo simply had solid college year on limited sample size.
He shot 41,3% for 3 but we talk about 25 games, 52 threes made sample size and pretty mediocre 64,9% FT shooting.

For example Lonzo made 80 threes at college on 41,2% and much like Fultz struggled from FT line ( 67%)

Lonzo flat out can't shoot and we have two years of evidence of it in nba.



There are also guys like Winslow (41% for 3 at college 67% FTs),
Josh Jackson ( 38% for 3, 56% FTs)
Dunn (37% for 3, 69% FTs)

who had respectful 3% but on limited attemps number during one year, that entered nba and simply did not have good enough shot to translate.

Problem is sample size, you have this kids playing 20-30 games and if they go 40/120 for 3 they get 33%, yet if they make 5 more they are now 38% three point shooters, and in reality over 30 games +/- 5 threes could be nothing but luck, sometimes shots just happend to fall, sometimes they roll over rim and fall off.

Not questioning your post, but is there any examples of a player shooting bad from 3 that comes into the NBA 1 or 2 years in as a sharpshooter? Basically the opposite of these players?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kawhi-leonard-1.html

of corse the are opposite examples, and Kawhi is good example , he was 25/86 in second year at college ,reworked shot and made 41/109 ( 37,6% ) in rookie year for 3.
But again, we talk about 90-120 attemps per season at most, sometimes sample size and results give you wrong impression.

Michael Redd is really interesting case, he could not shoot at college and he spent 3 years there, went to nba, first year pretty much didn't play , and in next two years guy shot 44% for 3 on 614 attemps.

[Knightro]

His shooting form was already noticeably different in Summer League.

I’ll admit right off the bat that I’m hardly an expert on jump shot mechanics, but the form I saw from Fultz at the Summer League in July 2017 was not *dramatically* different than the one I saw a few months earlier when he was still at Washington.

He was still very effective and very smooth shooting in the 15-20 foot midrange without much noticeably different there mechanically.

The biggest difference to me seemed to be a concerted effort to adjust to the longer three point line. Fultz seemed to put an emphasis on shooting the ball more on the way up v. more on the way down. But as far as release point and follow through, any changes there felt mostly negligible to me.

It’s obviously a tiny sample size so we can’t read too much into it, but Fultz did make 6-13 threes in Salt Lake. So it’s not like he was firing up awful brick after awful brick either.

Obviously we can't and don’t know for sure if he was hurting or not in July, he claims he wasn’t, but there were no obvious/noticeable red flags whatsoever about his form at that time to me.

There are just questions that are difficult to answer in this scenario.

Was Fultz shooting the ball slightly different from 3PT *because* he was hurting?

Did Fultz *cause* himself to start hurting by shooting the hall differently than he had been?

Or was Fultz just a normal young player attempting to make improvements to his game and adjusting to a deeper 3PT line?

[Ducklett]

Not questioning your post, but is there any examples of a player shooting bad from 3 that comes into the NBA 1 or 2 years in as a sharpshooter? Basically the opposite of these players?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/kawhi-leonard-1.html

of corse the are opposite examples, and Kawhi is good example , he was 25/86 in second year at college ,reworked shot and made 41/109 ( 37,6% ) in rookie year for 3.
But again, we talk about 90-120 attemps per season at most, sometimes sample size and results give you wrong impression.

Michael Redd is really interesting case, he could not shoot at college and he spent 3 years there, went to nba, first year pretty much didn't play , and in next two years guy shot 44% for 3 on 614 attemps.

That is pretty interesting about Kawhi that you and Xatt mentioned. I never really watched him in college. It is interesting how different a player can look from college to the pros. I guess that is very true with football as well.

[Catledge]

The Sixers gave Fultz *a* single cortisone shot a couple of days before Fultz went public with the fact he had soreness. But don't be so naive about that. Teams across all levels of sports give cortisone shots and toradol shots to athletes all the time when athletes have soreness, but no structural damage. 90% of those cases go completely unreported and this one wouldn't have been reported either, but Fultz's agent brought it up on his own 3 weeks after it happened.

And yes, the Sixers were very much involved in sending Fultz to the surgeon for another opinion, but because they otherwise couldn't find anything wrong with Fultz's shoulder/arm.

Every scenario is different, but since mention Ben Uzoh a lot as an example. Uzoh opened admitted that he felt the effects of TOS for *FOUR YEARS* before the pain became so untenable that he couldn't play basketball anymore.

And we're supposed to believe that in less than three months time, with no known anatomical defects or traumatic events that Markelle Fultz developed TOS so badly that it took him from a near unanimous No. 1 overall pick to a guy who quite literally can't play basketball at all?

It seems to me that you are overstating the degree of certainty in two areas:

1) The certainty that an injury would have to be caused from a specific traumatic event that we would all know about. It's extremely common for injuries to occur without a clear link to a specific event, especially when the symptoms grow slowly in severity over several weeks or months.

2) The certainty that doctors would by able to assess the state of a body part with 100% accuracy. It's extremely common for people to go from specialist to specialist trying to figure out what's causing some symptom they are having. Sometimes they never figure it out. Sure, it's less common among people who have access to the most expensive healthcare services, but it's not unheard of.

[magicman112]

The Sixers gave Fultz *a* single cortisone shot a couple of days before Fultz went public with the fact he had soreness. But don't be so naive about that. Teams across all levels of sports give cortisone shots and toradol shots to athletes all the time when athletes have soreness, but no structural damage. 90% of those cases go completely unreported and this one wouldn't have been reported either, but Fultz's agent brought it up on his own 3 weeks after it happened.

And yes, the Sixers were very much involved in sending Fultz to the surgeon for another opinion, but because they otherwise couldn't find anything wrong with Fultz's shoulder/arm.

Every scenario is different, but since mention Ben Uzoh a lot as an example. Uzoh opened admitted that he felt the effects of TOS for *FOUR YEARS* before the pain became so untenable that he couldn't play basketball anymore.

And we're supposed to believe that in less than three months time, with no known anatomical defects or traumatic events that Markelle Fultz developed TOS so badly that it took him from a near unanimous No. 1 overall pick to a guy who quite literally can't play basketball at all?

It seems to me that you are overstating the degree of certainty in two areas:

1) The certainty that an injury would have to be caused from a specific traumatic event that we would all know about. It's extremely common for injuries to occur without a clear link to a specific event, especially when the symptoms grow slowly in severity over several weeks or months.

2) The certainty that doctors would by able to assess the state of a body part with 100% accuracy. It's extremely common for people to go from specialist to specialist trying to figure out what's causing some symptom they are having. Sometimes they never figure it out. Sure, it's less common among people who have access to the most expensive healthcare services, but it's not unheard of.

The common thing you find when you look into TOS is that it tends to get misdiagnosed often. People often go through a few doctors before they finally get correctly diagnosed with it.

[Knightro]

It seems to me that you are overstating the degree of certainty in two areas:

1) The certainty that an injury would have to be caused from a specific traumatic event that we would all know about. It's extremely common for injuries to occur without a clear link to a specific event, especially when the symptoms grow slowly in severity over several weeks or months.

2) The certainty that doctors would by able to assess the state of a body part with 100% accuracy. It's extremely common for people to go from specialist to specialist trying to figure out what's causing some symptom they are having. Sometimes they never figure it out. Sure, it's less common among people who have access to the most expensive healthcare services, but it's not unheard of.

There are a lot of different ways a person can develop TOS. I never suggested it was only through trauma or only through one specific thing.

The problem for me is that Fultz and his team have pretty much denied most of the ways TOS reasonably could have developed.

-He hasn't opted for surgery. Since he hasn't and certainly won't go under the knife, it's stands to reason that he does *not* have an anatomical defect like an extra rib or an abnormally tight fibrous band. Those sort of defects would have shown up on an x-ray/ultrasound/MRI after his diagnosis and doctors would have certainly recommended corrective surgery, especially for someone in his position who relies on his body for his livelihood and also has access to the kind of care and recovery that a professional athlete has.

-He has denied suffering from any sort of specific traumatic event. There's no logical reason for Fultz to deny suffering trauma if he actually suffered trauma. In fact, that would be an easy explanation. "I fell down the steps at my house and my arm has been tingling ever since." There's no possible way that the Sixers were going to void his contract or even punish him over an accident even if it was him crashing a dirtbike.

-Fultz and his trainer are absolutely adamant that he was already hurting first and *then* he opted to change his shot and not visa versa. They've 100% punted any and all responsibility that his own actions (aka changing the biomechanics of his body by testing a new shot form) had anything to do with causing his issues in the first place.

So if Fultz and his people are telling us not this is not a rib issue, it's not an issue that stemmed from trauma and it's not an issue that stemmed from a change in repetitive activity... then what are we left with exactly?

[Catledge]

There are a lot of different ways a person can develop TOS. I never suggested it was only through trauma or only through one specific thing.

The problem for me is that Fultz and his team have pretty much denied most of the ways TOS reasonably could have developed

I also addressed this point. It's not unheard of for an injury to never be traced back to a specific event that Fultz could isolate, especially when the primary symptom becomes slowly more severe over a lengthy period of time.

-Fultz and his trainer are absolutely adamant that he was already hurting first and *then* he opted to change his shot and not visa versa. They've 100% punted any and all responsibility that his own actions (aka changing the biomechanics of his body by testing a new shot form) had anything to do with causing his issues in the first place.

I don't understand why you see this as so damning. It seems perfectly believable to me that he would start changing mechanics in response to pain. He might not even have been aware of it at first. People frequently changing their walking gait without realizing it in response to initially minor knee, foot, hip, or ankle pain.

So if Fultz and his people are telling us not this is not a rib issue, it's not an issue that stemmed from trauma and it's not an issue that stemmed from a change in repetitive activity... then what are we left with exactly?

I'm not saying that you are clearly and obviously wrong. I just think that there is plenty of reason to not have nearly as high a confidence in your analysis as you are expressing.

MOD NOTE: I accidentally hit "edit" instead of "quote" on this post. I went back in and edited it all back to what you originally wrote. My mistake! - Knightro