Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 III: It's B-ball Time !!!

[Knightro]

I also addressed this point. It's not unheard of for an injury to never be traced back to a specific event that Fultz could isolate, especially when the primary symptom becomes slowly more severe over a lengthy period of time.

I don't understand why you see this as so damning. It seems perfectly believable to me that he would start changing mechanics in response to pain. He might not even have been aware of it at first. People frequently changing their walking gait without realizing it in response to initially minor knee, foot, hip, or ankle pain.

I'm not saying that you are clearly and obviously wrong. I just think that there is plenty of reason to not have nearly as high a confidence in your analysis as you are expressing.

MOD NOTE: I accidentally hit "edit" instead of "quote" on this post. I went back in and edited it all back to what you originally wrote. My mistake! - Knightro

Again, the issue for me is just the timing of it all.

Fultz had no known shoulder trouble in high school. He had no known shoulder trouble in college. He had no known shoulder trouble during the pre-draft process. He had no known shoulder trouble in July at the Utah Summer League.

His camp is 100% suggesting that Markelle developed a very rare and essentially crippling (from a basketball perspective) syndrome over the course of 3 months through no fault of his own.

Is it *possible* that really is the case? Of course it's possible, but everything starts to seem more and more illogical when you realize Fultz, his agent and his trainer have all at various points completely denied that that Markelle ever even experienced three of the most commonly accepted causes of TOS.

He doesn't have an anatomical defect.
He never suffered a traumatic injury.
The Fultz camp has stressed that he never planned to or actually implemented any changes to his shot until *after* his shoulder was already hurting.

So essentially at some point between July 2017 when to our best knowledge Markelle Fultz was 100% healthy and September 2017 he managed to develop a very rare and completely debilitating shoulder and arm syndrome without any sort of knowledge of anything that could have possibly caused it. And on top of that he and his camp went out of their way to repeatedly deny three of the most common causes for the this extremely hard to diagnose condition as well.

It's just hard to accept that at face value.

Now the easiest explanation is that Fultz and his camp have not exactly been truthful throughout this process.

It's a lot more logical to believe that a 100% healthy Markelle Fultz *did* in fact attempt to alter his shot mechanics ahead of the season and those changes are what led to his initial shoulder soreness.

So the easy solution is to just go back to your old shot form, right?

Well that's where the yips/mental block/shattered confidence comes into play. Clearly Fultz has not been able to reproduce the muscle memory of his previous jumper and from there it appears things have spiraled out of his control from a mental standpoint.

[Popsicle1228]

Oh stop with that. Suffering an acute injury like an ankle sprain or ligament tear is a whole different animal than developing a syndrome or disorder over a period of time. You don't just go from perfectly healthy to riddled with thoracic outlet syndrome in one moment like you do with a trauma injury.

Knightro, I consider you one of the best and most informative posters on this forum but I disagree with you here. Rare neurologic disorders are not only extremely difficult to diagnose, but there pathology and presentation are likewise difficult to discern. I know this from personal experience.

Without going into to much detail. I was a normal healthy person who worked out frequently until I hit the age of 28. On October 29th 2011 I experienced an episode where I nearly passed out and my heart nearly stopped for a very short period. However, after that singular evening my body has never been the same. I have a nervous system disorder that ever since that faithful night has left my body with widespread unexplained nerve pain and fatigue. Moreover, since that night, my nervous system overreacts to stimulus that does not impact other people. For example, becoming overheated can make me sick for a week or more, and I may not experience the symptoms until two or three days after being overheated.

Perhaps a better example is that I suffered from Bell's Palsy in March 2010 thought to have come on from a virus. My cranial nerve was compressed due to inflammation and half my face became paralyzed throughout a 24 hour period. In that case my face was fine until the inflammation compressed the nerve in my skull and then I immediately had symptoms. I made a full recovery within 1.5 months and nobody would ever know I had it unless I told them or they knew me at the time. Some people recover partially and some never. I am lucky.

The overarching point is that you can go from perfectly healthy to having unexplained nerve pain/issues literally overnight. Yes it is very rare, and many doctors dismissed me at first, but after a little over a year I ended up with a diagnosis for my current disorder that was a result of exclusion of other diseases/infections. It is very possible that the inflammation in Fultz's shoulder took time to increase to a point where it began to compress a nerve and once compressed, his symptoms presented in a very short period of time.

On a side note, I am not writing this for sympathy. I have a great life and with treatment have been able to rise above the pain, have a wonderful family, own a business, and have become an influential member in my small humble community. The vast majority of people I know do not even know I suffer from a said disorder. It is literally the only thing in my life that I can complain about because I am blessed in every other aspect of my life and there are people out there that have it much worse than me. I simply wanted to point out that nerve disorders or compression symptoms can present themselves in a very short period. Fultz may or may not have an injury, but given all evidence combined with personal experience, I am of the opinion that his sudden injury is possible and perhaps probable.

[Knightro]

Knightro, I consider you one of the best and most informative posters on this forum but I disagree with you here. Rare neurologic disorders are not only extremely difficult to diagnose, but there pathology and presentation are likewise difficult to discern. I know this from personal experience.

Without going into to much detail. I was a normal healthy person who worked out frequently until I hit the age of 28. On October 29th 2011 I experienced an episode where I nearly passed out and my heart nearly stopped for a very short period. However, after that singular evening my body has never been the same. I have a nervous system disorder that ever since that faithful night has left my body with widespread unexplained nerve pain and fatigue. Moreover, since that night, my nervous system overreacts to stimulus that does not impact other people. For example, becoming overheated can make me sick for a week or more, and I may not experience the symptoms until two or three days after being overheated.

Perhaps a better example is that I suffered from Bell's Palsy in March 2010 thought to have come on from a virus. My cranial nerve was compressed due to inflammation and half my face became paralyzed throughout a 24 hour period. In that case my face was fine until the inflammation compressed the nerve in my skull and then I immediately had symptoms. I made a full recovery within 1.5 months and nobody would ever know I had it unless I told them or they knew me at the time.

The overarching point is that you can go from perfectly healthy to having unexplained nerve pain/issues literally overnight. Yes it is very rare, and many doctors dismissed me at first, but after a little over a year I ended up with a diagnosis for my current disorder that was a result of exclusion of other diseases/infections. It is very possible that the inflammation in Fultz's shoulder took time to increase to a point where it began to compress a nerve and once compressed, his symptoms presented in a very short period of time.

On a side note, I am not writing this for sympathy. I have a great life and with treatment have been able to rise above the pain, have a wonderful family, own a business, and have become an influential member in my small humble community. The vast majority of people I know do not even know I suffer from a said disorder. It is literally the only thing in my life that I can complain about because I am blessed in every other aspect of my life and there are people out there that have it much worse than me. I simply wanted to point out that nerve disorders or compression symptoms can present themselves in a very short period. Fultz may or may not have an injury, but given all evidence combined with personal experience, I am of the opinion that his sudden injury is possible and perhaps probable.

I appreciate you sharing that and I definitely don't want - in any way, shape or form - to make you or anyone else on this board feel like I'm making light of anyone's medical condition or medical history. Not my intention whatsoever.

I would say an obvious difference between you and Markelle Fultz is that you, based on what you just shared, have been forthcoming and not at all misleading about what you were experiencing or how you were feeling, which it certainly seems Fultz and his camp have done on more than one occasion.

I just think all of this is far less sinister and severe than Fultz and his camp have made it out to be.

Personally? I think Fultz decided to change his shot between July and September of 2017, in doing so he created discomfort in his shoulder and the pressure of not being able to change back to his original sent him completely off the deep end mentally and resulted in severe yips and a severe crisis of confidence as well as legitimate wrist tendinitis.

But on top of being a sheltered and immature young man, I'm highly skeptical to how much good Fultz's inner circle is doing for him. I think he's gotten bad advice and I also think there's a level of insecurity involved where someone who was quite literally at the top of the food chain at one time (No. 1 overall pick) can't possibly fathom being horrible and having the reason being something within his control. So there has to be something else to blame.

If allowing Fultz to think he has a shoulder condition and subsequently doing rehab for that is going to help get Markelle into a better place mentally and from a confidence perspective, then I think the Magic are totally on board with that.

[Def Swami]

The very nature of what TOS is what makes the situation so ambiguous and makes a lot of people, including myself, dubious to the situation. It's not that I question the specialists who diagnosed him or question whether he truly feels discomfort. But any professional would have to question the diagnosis of neurogenic TOS because, again, it is one of exclusion.

No one will ever be able to prove that Fultz has TOS. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

And no one would ever be able to tell you with absolute certainty that is supported by evidence if he'll be able to treat it, how to treat it, and what a recovery time looks like.

There's a real possibility that he's doing all of this rehab and treating his TOS and he'll turnaround in time. There's also a real possibility that he doesn't get better (again, there's no good data that shows PT works). There's also a real possibility that he doesn't have TOS, in which case he's spent 10 months rehabbing something that was nonexistent.

[ezzzp]

The Sixers quite literally protected and babied Fultz as well as any reasonable NBA team could have expected them to do considering how much he and his management team at best misled and at worst outright lied to them throughout this whole process.

They completely mishandled the situation. The Coangelo front office was a PR disaster and the 76er medical department had been in question long before Fultz arrived. In fact, Elton Brand fired the medical and training staff immediately after the season ended.

These are some indisputable facts in this situation. Markelle Fultz changed his shot form between July 2017 and September 2017 *without* consulting the Philadelphia 76ers coaching staff of any planned changes. We know this is true.

No, we do not know this is true. There are no indisputable facts, only opinions and speculation. As I already mentioned, his former trainer - the one who worked with him that summer insisted that they did not change his shot.

The only thing we don't know is if...

A. Fultz made changes to his jumper because his arm/shoulder was hurting
B. The changes Fultz tried to make to his jumper caused his arm/shoulder to start hurting
C. Fultz tried to make changes to his jumper that failed miserably to the point he developed the yips/a confidence of crisis. And from there he essentially made up a phantom injury excuse rather than admit he screwed himself up

or the multiple choice can be:

A. Fultz jumper gradually changed adapting to sources of pain. People do this unconsciously all the time AND TOS specialists say that this is a common thing amongst people with TOS.

B. Which type of TOS Fultz has

C. Fultz pain and discomfort, which had been mild, began to intensify with time. That is a characteristic of TOS. The stronger it got the more it impacted his shot. The more it impacted his shot, the less confident he got in his shot. The attention and scrutiny around that exacerbated the loss in confidence.

When Fultz showed up to training camp late September 2017 and the team realized exactly how messed up his new shot was, Fultz did *not* inform the team that he changed his shot because of an injury he suffered during the summer or because of pain he was currently experiencing. When the team and Fultz were both forced to address it publicly to the media, neither side suggested in any way, shape or form that Fultz's new janky shot form had *anything* to do with an injury. That it was merely Fultz working through adjustments he made to his shot in an effort to adjust to the longer NBA 3PT line. Neither Fultz nor the team made a single comment (despite both parties being asked about it on a daily basis) about an injury negatively affecting his horrific shot form until October 9th, two full weeks after training camp opened.

This is not accurate.

Fultz told Kevin O'Conner (the Ringer) on October 10th that his shoulder had been hurting "on and off" stating "I talk to trainers when it bothers me, and they get right to it and start working on it." When O'Conner asked him if that shoulder pain motivated him to revise his free throw mechanics Fultz said, "Yeah, for the most part. I'm just trying other things to make free throws." The 76er medical and training staff knew and had been working with him on it.

Also, we do NOT know if Fultz talked to the 76er medical/training staff over the summer about his "sore shoulder" or if he talked to them about it the second he arrived to training camp...and we do NOT know if or what the medical/training staff told Brett Brown on day 1 of training camp.

Quite literally to this day neither Fultz nor the Sixers have never copped to any sort of traumatic event happening between July-September. In fact, both parties have denied it.

A trauma event that causes TOS is very often unknown because the symptoms don't start until much later...AND when they do its so gradual that it isn't until the intensity and frequency reach a certain point of that specific individuals tolerance level that it gets addressed medically by that individual.

So we can rule out an anatomical defect, because if one existed Fultz would have presumably opted for surgery to correct it. Since all parties involved have denied it, we have no choice but to rule out a traumatic event.

We can't rule it out. First of all, surgery is only recommended after non-invasive options have been exhausted. There is no "exhausted" data for basketball to create a timeline for exhaustion.

Not only is that surgery extremely dangerous but it has also produced very erratic results. Nobody can presume that Fultz would opt for that risk - especially since there were ZERO samples of a basketball player ever undergoing the surgery.

Again, surgery data from other sports DO NOT translate over to basketball because the desired results of an operation are totally different. The precisely calibrated motion and touch of a basketball shooting motion is NOT the same as the brute force violent motion of a baseball pitch etc.

That means the only realistic conclusion that would have caused Fultz to develop this very rare neurological disorder over such a short period of time would be repetitive activity - AKA attempting to alter his jumper form

So essentially we're being forced to believe based on his own words and the words of his management team that Markelle Fultz developed thoracic outlet syndrome over a three month period with no legitimate explanation for how he developed it and THEN he altered his jumper to the point of no return in a futile effort to ease his pain.

No, this is assuming that the other causes were eliminated and as I just showed you they are not...and you nor anybody else, except those inside, do not have the access to the necessary information to make that assumption. On top of that it is ignoring the symptoms and characteristics of TOS and its treatment.

The Sixers gave Fultz *a* single cortisone shot a couple of days before Fultz went public with the fact he had soreness. But don't be so naive about that. Teams across all levels of sports give cortisone shots and toradol shots to athletes all the time when athletes have soreness, but no structural damage. 90% of those cases go completely unreported and this one wouldn't have been reported either, but Fultz's agent brought it up on his own 3 weeks after it happened.

And yes, the Sixers were very much involved in sending Fultz to the surgeon for another opinion, but because they otherwise couldn't find anything wrong with Fultz's shoulder/arm.

Exactly how are you coming up with "a single cortisone shot?" As evidenced by Kevin O'Conner's interview with Fultz the 76ers staff were treating him throughout training camp.

Teams do not carry full staffs to cover everything. EVERY single team uses specialist consultants. We do NOT know what the 76er staff did or didn't find...all we know is that they needed help to understand what was going on.

Every scenario is different, but since mention Ben Uzoh a lot as an example. Uzoh opened admitted that he felt the effects of TOS for *FOUR YEARS* before the pain became so untenable that he couldn't play basketball anymore.

Again, the symptoms in TOS increase gradually and every single person's threshold is different.

On top of that, Uzoh's gradually escalating issues are the reason his decline went from fringe NBA tier to fringe professional level player in that span. Once he was diagnosed correctly and treatment began, his incline back up took him 10 months before he was playing and shooting for Nigerian team in the Olympics. This was without surgery.

And we're supposed to believe that in less than three months time, with no known anatomical defects or traumatic events that Markelle Fultz developed TOS so badly that it took him from a near unanimous No. 1 overall pick to a guy who quite literally can't play basketball at all?

Again, TOS symptoms intensify gradually over long periods of time AND they aren't consistent as they come and go erratically. Assumptions about "no anatomical or traumatic" are just that, complete guesses missing crucial information.

[drsd]

Is it *possible* that really is the case? Of course it's possible, but everything starts to seem more and more illogical when you realize Fultz, his agent and his trainer have all at various points completely denied that that Markelle ever even experienced three of the most commonly accepted causes of TOS.

The Magic just invested a 12M above the 9.7M they will already pay Fultz. Orlando must know that Fultz has physically "improved."

But all of this distracts from a reality. Orlando will be well placed to be "better" even if Fultz is not actually injured and plays 70 games at thee level he played in Philly.

Full' stat line is fine in Orlando as a back-up PG. Offering him 12M next year means the Magic see some path of him starting by next year's opening night. There is no other interpretation of this off season.


..

[pepe1991]

Is it *possible* that really is the case? Of course it's possible, but everything starts to seem more and more illogical when you realize Fultz, his agent and his trainer have all at various points completely denied that that Markelle ever even experienced three of the most commonly accepted causes of TOS.

The Magic just invested a 12M above the 9.7M they will already pay Fultz. Orlando must know that Fultz has physically "improved."

But all of this distracts from a reality. Orlando will be well placed to be "better" even if Fultz is not actually injured and plays 70 games at thee level he played in Philly.

Full' stat line is fine in Orlando as a back-up PG. Offering him 12M next year means the Magic see some path of him starting by next year's opening night. There is no other interpretation of this off season.


..

OR

team that has no cap space and won't have any benefits from not picking up team's option on 4th year for player that they traded for, yet who didn't play single min since that period , simply had to pick up option to know what they got.

Odds are that October 31st was always going to come and go without ever having chance to watch Fultz play in actual game, even preseason one.

Also sometimes owner/menager simply has to protect his a** and i belive this was always a case here. Even if Fultz never play a single game, Hammond and Weltman would still pick up his option for simple reason- they made a trade for him, so it's their investment that they have to go through with. If he fails they can always present it as his failure, but if he is able to play, it's their big victory.

Wasn't Weltman still part of the Raptors when they picked 4th year option for Coboclo after guy averaged 1,5 ppg on 35% FG through first 3 years? That's what smart GMs/presidents do, even when they know they made mistake, they will just let it quietly go away instad of suddent cuts.

[Knightro]

No, we do not know this is true. There are no indisputable facts, only opinions and speculation. As I already mentioned, his former trainer - the one who worked with him that summer insisted that they did not change his shot.

So you're suggesting Markelle Fultz's shot did not change significantly over the course of the summer of 2017?

It obviously did change dramatically.

What we don't know is which of three things actually happened...

A. Fultz decided to change his shot and that is what caused his shoulder/arm pain
B. Fultz had pre-existing shoulder/arm pain that forced him to change his shot
C. Fultz tried to change his shot and the results were so bad that he developed a mental block/yips when attempting to revert back to his form from college and into the Salt Lake Summer League

Personally, I think it started out as Option A and transitioned into Option C once his initial discomfort went away.

But regardless of *why* his shot changed changed, it's silly for you or anyone else to suggest that it's not an indisputable fact that Fultz's shot changed dramatically.

Fultz's camp claims that it's Option B, but they've been far from a beacon of honesty throughout this entire process.

Here's Fultz publicly admitting he changed his shot on September 28th with no hint of any sort of discomfort.

“It was just something going on where I wanted to try something new, but my free throw’s going to look the same as college. I’m just trying to look at different ways to see how the ball can go in the hoop,” said Fultz. He stressed that his primary point-of-emphasis has been on getting ready for a deeper three-point line, and improving his proficiency as an off-ball threat. “This is a further three, so just [getting ready to] catch-and-shoot. You’ve got great people here—Ben, JJ, everybody—so you’ve got to be ready to catch-and-shoot whenever you’re open.”

^ One way or the other, either this comment by Fultz isn't true or his trainer's quote where he aggressively stated they had no desire to change his shot over the summer and only did so because Markelle was feeling pain is a lie.

Here's Brett Brown on October 25th. Several weeks after Fultz initially told the media he was injured. Several weeks after the team gave him a cortisone shot. Brown directly says that Fultz "wanted" to change his shot and "spent a lot of time over the summer" changing his shot with no hint whatsoever that he had done so because of an injury.

Read on Twitter

Beyond that, I'm not sure how much you know about cortisone shots, but doctors don't give them out every time an athlete complains about soreness. The generally accepted timeframe is one every six weeks and no more than like 4-5 in a calendar year. "Treatment" in this case could be anything from advil to ice/heat on the area to kinesio tape to massages.

[pepe1991]

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/cortisone-shots/about/pac-20384794

good basic infos on Cortisone shots.
As Knighto said, you can't just keep using them, you should not do them more often than 3 to 4 times a year. They are actually pretty common in cases with cronic back pain with regular people.

i remember reading how Fultz menager freaked out and reported something was drained from Fultz shoulder, just to backtrack it and say it was cortisone shot injected in.

Problem as usual is that most people view Fultz camp as shady one, and poor reports like that are one of main reasons why.

[ezzzp]

So you're suggesting Markelle Fultz's shot did not change significantly over the course of the summer of 2017?

No. I am responding to your allegation that "Markelle Fultz changed his shot form." You DO NOT know if the degradation in his shot mechanics were a symptom of TOS or if Fultz intentionally changed his shot. Surely you don't actually think you are inside enough to know the answer to that .

What we don't know is which of three things actually happened...

A. Fultz decided to change his shot and that is what caused his shoulder/arm pain
B. Fultz had pre-existing shoulder/arm pain that forced him to change his shot
C. Fultz tried to change his shot and the results were so bad that he developed a mental block/yips when attempting to revert back to his form from college and into the Salt Lake Summer League

Personally, I think it started out as Option A and transitioned into Option C once his initial discomfort went away.

That’s biased to confirm your theory. But that description is the least probable cause...why in the world would a #1 pick who had the capacity to shoot off-the-bounce from anywhere on court (including deep shots well behind college 3PT line) choose to change his shot mechanics?

But regardless of *why* his shot changed changed, it's silly for you or anyone else to suggest that it's not an indisputable fact that Fultz's shot changed dramatically.

What's silly is assuming that he changed his shot intentionally. Plus my response was not that his form was different, but that you - with ZERO inside data - alleged that Fultz intentionally changed his shot.

Fultz's camp claims that it's Option B, but they've been far from a beacon of honesty throughout this entire process.

Here's Fultz publicly admitting he changed his shot on September 28th with no hint of any sort of discomfort.

“It was just something going on where I wanted to try something new, but my free throw’s going to look the same as college. I’m just trying to look at different ways to see how the ball can go in the hoop,” said Fultz. He stressed that his primary point-of-emphasis has been on getting ready for a deeper three-point line, and improving his proficiency as an off-ball threat. “This is a further three, so just [getting ready to] catch-and-shoot. You’ve got great people here—Ben, JJ, everybody—so you’ve got to be ready to catch-and-shoot whenever you’re open.”

...and at that point the 76ers were already literally working with him on his shot...as Brett Brown described it on September 28th "recalibrating it."

Fultz' statement actually points to a need to compensate for loss of strength in his shot mechanics...a symptom of TOS.

^ One way or the other, either this comment by Fultz isn't true or his trainer's quote where he aggressively stated they had no desire to change his shot over the summer and only did so because Markelle was feeling pain is a lie.

or the shooting adjustments that Fultz is referring to are the one that he was currently working on with the 76er staff

Here's Brett Brown on October 25th. Several weeks after Fultz initially told the media he was injured. Several weeks after the team gave him a cortisone shot. Brown directly says that Fultz "wanted" to change his shot and "spent a lot of time over the summer" changing his shot with no hint whatsoever that he had done so because of an injury.

Actually, Brown on September 28th, the first day of training camp blamed Fultz shot issue on his trainer:

“we’ve done stuff with him, but really he’s been with his personal trainer over the month of August and since Summer League ended"

AND he states that they were now trying to "recalibrate it."

What that tweet you posted shows is more evidence that the narrative the 76ers were trying to push was to deflect blame away from the organization and point the finger at Fultz.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how much you know about cortisone shots, but doctors don't give them out every time an athlete complains about soreness. The generally accepted timeframe is one every six weeks and no more than like 4-5 in a calendar year. "Treatment" in this case could be anything from advil to ice/heat on the area to kinesio tape to massages.

You do NOT give an uninjured player or one not suffering pain cortisone shots. That is the point. You have stated numerous times that the 76ers never knew about or mentioned an injury.

[basketballRob]

The very nature of what TOS is what makes the situation so ambiguous and makes a lot of people, including myself, dubious to the situation. It's not that I question the specialists who diagnosed him or question whether he truly feels discomfort. But any professional would have to question the diagnosis of neurogenic TOS because, again, it is one of exclusion.

No one will ever be able to prove that Fultz has TOS. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

And no one would ever be able to tell you with absolute certainty that is supported by evidence if he'll be able to treat it, how to treat it, and what a recovery time looks like.

There's a real possibility that he's doing all of this rehab and treating his TOS and he'll turnaround in time. There's also a real possibility that he doesn't get better (again, there's no good data that shows PT works). There's also a real possibility that he doesn't have TOS, in which case he's spent 10 months rehabbing something that was nonexistent.

I remember Penny going through the same thing. He had an injury that was hard to diagnose around the time he went to the Suns. I know he was never the same. Kawhi also went through a similar situation in San Antonio.

It's probably smart for athlete to just sit out rather than play if you aren't 100%. I'm sure Durant would've got a bunch of hate if he sat out last years playoffs but he'd probably would've been better off.

Btw I was listening to Josh Robbins on the radio today and he said, Fultz still has the most upside out of him, JI, and AG.

[ezzzp]

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/cortisone-shots/about/pac-20384794

good basic infos on Cortisone shots.
As Knighto said, you can't just keep using them, you should not do them more often than 3 to 4 times a year. They are actually pretty common in cases with cronic back pain with regular people.

i remember reading how Fultz menager freaked out and reported something was drained from Fultz shoulder, just to backtrack it and say it was cortisone shot injected in.

Problem as usual is that most people view Fultz camp as shady one, and poor reports like that are one of main reasons why.

Do you give a cortisone shot to a player that is not injured or not having pain? No you don't. That's the point.

Also, the fluid going in or out could be a simple error made by Brothers one that he corrected it once he realized or was told what the implications were between the two. OR it could have just as easily been the 76ers who told him to change his statement for PR reasons as one indicates a more serious issue.

[MagicStarwipe]

I don't know man. We can just read the Sixers board. They've had this exact same discussion a million times. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. Everythings been said.

[thelead]

I don't know man. We can just read the Sixers board. They've had this exact same discussion a million times. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. Everythings been said.

Yup.

[pepe1991]

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/cortisone-shots/about/pac-20384794

good basic infos on Cortisone shots.
As Knighto said, you can't just keep using them, you should not do them more often than 3 to 4 times a year. They are actually pretty common in cases with cronic back pain with regular people.

i remember reading how Fultz menager freaked out and reported something was drained from Fultz shoulder, just to backtrack it and say it was cortisone shot injected in.

Problem as usual is that most people view Fultz camp as shady one, and poor reports like that are one of main reasons why.

Do you give a cortisone shot to a player that is not injured or not having pain? No you don't. That's the point.

Also, the fluid going in or out could be a simple error made by Brothers one that he corrected it once he realized or was told what the implications were between the two. OR it could have just as easily been the 76ers who told him to change his statement for PR reasons as one indicates a more serious issue.

Do you give a cortisone shot to a player that is not injured or not having pain? No you don't. That's the point.

Well we all know he had some issues, nobody argues that. But you give cortisone shots to person that you are confident that in continuation of whatever they are doing won't cause any further harm, like when it's case with cronic back pain that happends to lot of people.

The story of Markelle Fultz’s nagging right shoulder took a bizarre (yet encouraging?) turn Tuesday night. Fultz’s agent, Raymond Brothers, had told ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski earlier in the day that the Sixers rookie had fluid drained from his right shoulder (i.e., the same side of his body as his shooting arm) before the season began. Hours later, Brothers, again via Wojnarowski, told a completely different story: Fultz had a cortisone shot injected into his shoulder, not fluid drained from it.

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"He had a cortisone shot on Oct. 5, which means fluid was put into his shoulder -- not taken out," agent Raymond Brothers told ESPN on Tuesday night. "My intention earlier was to let people know that he's been experiencing discomfort. We will continue to work with (Sixers general manager) Bryan Colangelo and the medical staff."

So he just conveniently made mistake about something that happend at that point 20 days ago and story goes from "he can't raise his arm " to " feeling discomfort" within few hours?

Brothers was also running around ESPN, NBA.com and The Athletic to tell everybody that Philly and Fultz are not looking to part ways. All that articles were published at November 21st. At November 20 he played his last game for Philly who dumped him for salary purpose.

During his first interview with media as Orlando Magic player Fultz himself throws shade at... Brett Brown ? Like really? From all people you want to be angry at ,you are angry at one who inserted you in starting lineup.

I don't know, in free time i study integration tactics with criminals, in most cases when somebody lies they do what do what Brothers did, keep telling everybody how much hurt Fultz is, because he is not 100% sure people actually belive he is hurt, so he has to be vocal and emphasize that part of his story. He kept doing it for longest time. Literally when TOS was brought up he said

"People were saying it was a mental problem and it is not," Brothers was quoted by ESPN. "There's no way you're the number one pick in the world and all of a sudden you aren't able to consistently raise your arms to shoot a basketball. Something is physically wrong. Now we have the answer to that problem."

Why you adressing fans and their crappy rumors if there is nothing to it ? It's like feeling need to adress your wife that you don't cheat on her? Why bring it up?

But Fultz and mental side of a story always had legs and that's the issue he tries to hide so desperately.

One of nba insiders also brought this up at December 1, 2018

Fultz’s teammates are increasingly concerned about his overall well-being beyond his struggles on the court, league sources told ESPN. The organization has expressed its support as Fultz, the No. 1 overall pick in the 2017 NBA draft, completes his consultations in the coming days.

We know for fact that his mother put camera inside his house when he lived on his own, he moved to Orlando and went back to live with his mom and sister.

Lot of things with him are odd and not explained, and his agent's job is to do coverups, that's why i don't understand how somebody can be so naive to take for granted everything that guy ever said. It's clear that his job depends on presenting Futlz is best light and shielding him from harm, even when that harm is being done by Fultz himself or somebody close to him. Odom said his agent was helping him cheat drug tests and even buy him a fake d*** . That's objective, actual and factual , just goes to show you how far agents are ready to go to collect that 3-5% of $$$. Good living, but shady job.

[basketballRob]

Listening to Robbins on Mark Daniels radio program yesterday and he said, Fultz has been working with two developmental coaches from the Magic all season.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Skybox]

I don't know man. We can just read the Sixers board. They've had this exact same discussion a million times. I'm just going to wait and see what happens. Everythings been said.

more than once...I can't wait to get back to awful trade rumors.

[Knightro]

No. I am responding to your allegation that "Markelle Fultz changed his shot form." You DO NOT know if the degradation in his shot mechanics were a symptom of TOS or if Fultz intentionally changed his shot. Surely you don't actually think you are inside enough to know the answer to that .

Markelle Fultz DID change his shot form. He admitted it. Brett Brown admitted it. His trainer admitted it. Anyone with two eyes can see his shot changed.

Regardless of the reason why, his shot form was dramatically altered between July 2017 and September 2017. That is indisputable.

That’s biased to confirm your theory. But that description is the least probable cause...why in the world would a #1 pick who had the capacity to shoot off-the-bounce from anywhere on court (including deep shots well behind college 3PT line) choose to change his shot mechanics?

What's silly is assuming that he changed his shot intentionally. Plus my response was not that his form was different, but that you - with ZERO inside data - alleged that Fultz intentionally changed his shot.

Markelle Fultz is on record in 2017 as saying one of his main goals that offseason was to adjust himself to the longer three point line. I already put the quote in this thread. Now was that a bold faced lie to hide the fact he was hurt? Could be, but he still said it.

I can't say with 100% certainty that Fultz's desire to adjust to the longer three point line definitely involved him altering his jump shot form, but based on his own words as well as the words of his head coach that all came out BEFORE any claims of injury came out, it stands to reason that Fultz was looking to adjust his form on his own as a way to adjust to the longer 3PT line.

...and at that point the 76ers were already literally working with him on his shot...as Brett Brown described it on September 28th "recalibrating it."

Yes they were. They were upset at the changed Fultz had made and were desperately trying to get him back to the form he showed in college and the form he showed in July.

or the shooting adjustments that Fultz is referring to are the one that he was currently working on with the 76er staff

Uhhh no. Fultz reported to camp with a completely janky shot and the Sixers were trying to get him back to how he previous shot the ball, only to discover that he had a mental block and couldn't replicate his old form.

Actually, Brown on September 28th, the first day of training camp blamed Fultz shot issue on his trainer:

“we’ve done stuff with him, but really he’s been with his personal trainer over the month of August and since Summer League ended"

AND he states that they were now trying to "recalibrate it."

What that tweet you posted shows is more evidence that the narrative the 76ers were trying to push was to deflect blame away from the organization and point the finger at Fultz.

The last time the Sixers saw him in July, his shot was fine. He showed up to camp 3 months later with a shot that is utterly broken to the point of him not even being able play basketball effectively. When asked about the changes in his jumper, Fultz publicly admitted on September 28th that he had reworked his shot to adjust to the longer 3PT line and even went so far as to say that his FT stroke was just something he was "messing around with" and that his form would look like it did in college once the season began.

He didn't mention anything on the record about an injury causing him to change his form until October 10th.

*Of course* the Sixers were pissed off. Their No. 1 draft pick showed up with a completely different shot and his public explanation was "I wanted to try out some new things."

You do NOT give an uninjured player or one not suffering pain cortisone shots. That is the point. You have stated numerous times that the 76ers never knew about or mentioned an injury.

I mean no disrespect by this whatsoever, but this comes off INCREDIBLY naive about the process of sports medicine in professional athletics. The Sixers medical staff in this case has one goal. Get the player healthy enough to play. If that means giving him a cortisone shot to help with his soreness, they're going to give it to the shot even if they aren't convinced that he's sore because above all else the team's medical staff's primary goal is getting Fultz's body in a position where he's able to play.

This is how it likely went down...

Fultz: "My shoulder hurts"
Sixers: "Thanks for telling us, let's start with treatment. Go easy on your shoulder for a couple of days, take these anti inflammatories, use ice to dull the pain and then heat to relax it away after workouts. Get our massage therapist to do some extra work on your muscles and joints.
*Fultz does treatment*
Fultz: "Still hurts"
Sixers: "Thanks for telling us. Let's examine you."
*Team examines Fultz, finds nothing structurally wrong with shoulder*
Fultz: "Still hurts"
Sixers: "Let's go deeper, get an MRI/X-Ray"
*MRIs and X-Rays show up clean*
Fultz: "Still hurts"
Sixers: "Ok well with nothing wrong structurally and the shoulder apparently not responding well to treatment, let's attempt something a little more aggressive, here's a cortisone shot for your soreness."
*Fultz received cortisone shot*
Fultz: "Still hurts"
Sixers *now exasperated because the shoulder given the circumstances shouldn't still be hurting*: "You're going to have to go see a series of specialists because we can't figure out what's wrong with you."

If a player says he's hurt, regardless of whether or not the team believes it or not, the team is going to do whatever they can do to offer treatment for the players injury, including a cortisone shot which is a very common procedure in the sports world when someone has general soreness/inflammation in an area, but doesn't have any structural damage.

[Knightro]

Do you give a cortisone shot to a player that is not injured or not having pain? No you don't. That's the point.

Also, the fluid going in or out could be a simple error made by Brothers one that he corrected it once he realized or was told what the implications were between the two. OR it could have just as easily been the 76ers who told him to change his statement for PR reasons as one indicates a more serious issue.

You're still badly missing the point.

Markelle Fultz *said* he was hurt. Whether or not the Sixers believed him or didn't believe him is irrelevant in this case. Their job as a medical staff is to provide treatment to an injured player and get him back on the court as quickly and efficiently as possible.

The Sixers examined him. The Sixers had other people outside the organization examine him. They repeatedly provided him treatment when he said he was hurt. They found nothing wrong with Fultz structurally, but Markelle still insisted that he was hurt. The Sixers want him to play, so they're going to continue treating him as best they can whether they think he's faking it or not.

The logical next step in the process would be an injection designed specifically to treat soreness and inflammation, which is what they did.

It's naive to think the Sixers WOULDN'T try and address his injury in every reasonable way they had even if they were skeptical on how he got hurt or on how much he was actually hurting/if he was hurting at all.

[Knightro]

Changing gears away from Fultz.

Here's a long Josh Robbins interview with Steve Clifford ($): https://theathletic.com/1222965/

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Interesting notes from Clifford in BLACK. My thoughts in BLUE.

-Felt defense was good enough to win against Toronto, but offense wasn't close
Clifford has preached playing faster, but until I actually see that I'm going to assume it's just general coach speak. His teams have always played very slow and put an emphasis on limiting turnovers and easy points for the opposition. I see no reason why that would change now.

-Believes the World Cup experience for Fournier, Vucevic, Aminu and Birch is absolutely advantageous
The fact that these guys are all older and have a lot of experience makes me confident they know how to pace their bodies and they'll all come in ahead of the curve from a competitive basketball standpoint.

-Cited Derrick Rose winning MVP in 10-11 after getting great experience in the 2010 FIBA World Cup
If we only had a Derrick Rose caliber talent.

-No plans to lessen the workload of those four players in camp
No issue here.

-Expects no complacency after winning 42 games because they got bounced so easily in the playoffs
LOVE this mentality from coach. Celebrate an improved season, but get these guys thinking that simply making the playoffs isn't good enough.

-Speculates that Fournier's shooting may have slipped a bit a year ago because he was defending harder than he's ever defended before.
Not something I really considered before. Hopefully Evan can make the adjustment to being an effective two-way player because having him play better offensively will help a ton.

-TBD on if Fultz will be ready to go on October 1st. He's been working out in Orlando the majority of the summer.
Hope he's ready.

-Glowing praise for Fultz based on his Washington tape
Washington Fultz is quite literally EXACTLY what this team needs right now.

-Isaac's had a terrific summer, expects much improvement as a range shooter
Isaac is already a massive contributor as a defender, getting to league average offensively would be a good step.

-Admits Bamba had "a setback" in July, but it was minor and he's gotten much stronger
We'll see how it goes. I'm not overly optimistic about Bamba.

-Confirms Mo will start out as the backup C and Khem has already been told of the plan
Totally understand why Clifford is going this route, but really hope he has the stones to pull the plug on Mo if he plays terribly.

-More glowing praise for Aminu's defensive versatility and BBIQ
Aminu's gonna give this team 20-25 super competent, super professional minutes every single night.

-Four more "optional" workouts before camp starts, CBA only allows 3 on 3 work
LFG.