Replace Lebron with Prime Kawhi on the 2011-2014 Heat

[HBK_Kliq_33]

That Heat squad minus Lebron is not stacked, that was my point. Bosh, Wade and scrubs is not that great. They’d probably win 50-52 if you replaced Lebron with an average player.

Prime Wade we are talking about here! He won it with washed up Shaq, why not prime Bosh? 2011 Wade/Bosh probably win it all!

2012 is when Wade starts declining but is still a great player.

Are you saying that if James wasn't on the roster the Heat win it all even without Kawhi? As in Wade/Bosh plus the rest of that Heat team were title material?

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Embiid averaged 17/8 on a higher paced series than Garnett.

Embiid averaged 25/13 in the 1st round and was league leader in BPM going into the east finals. Embiid was still a very good player who just ran into a tough defense.

KG on the other hand was just an elite role player in the 2010's. He never showed he was himself anymore. Was never a great scorer to begin with but his game took a major hit after his 09 injury, lost a lot of his athleticism and cardio.

Garnett averages 15/5 against Prime Pau Gasol and Bynum: He became a bum! Washed up!

Embiid averages 17/8 against Marc Gasol and Siakam: He just had a tough series!

Bynum was on minute restriction that series and was coming off an injury, that's his excuse? KG didn't play like a superstar in any round that years playoffs, he could barely run.

[No-more-rings]

Prime Wade we are talking about here! He won it with washed up Shaq, why not prime Bosh? 2011 Wade/Bosh probably win it all!

2012 is when Wade starts declining but is still a great player.

Are you saying that if James wasn't on the roster the Heat win it all even without Kawhi? As in Wade/Bosh plus the rest of that Heat team were title material?

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

I'd argue that even 2006 Shaq was comfortably better than that version of Bosh. He was still a force to be reckoned with down low, and drew way more defensive attention than Bosh.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Are you saying that if James wasn't on the roster the Heat win it all even without Kawhi? As in Wade/Bosh plus the rest of that Heat team were title material?

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

I'd argue that even 2006 Shaq was comfortably better than that version of Bosh. He was still a force to be reckoned with down low, and drew way more defensive attention than Bosh.

Shaq was a -1.0 OBPM in the playoffs. That's not a tell all stat or anything but that usually doesn't happen with players who are having an impact on offense.

[No-more-rings]

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

I'd argue that even 2006 Shaq was comfortably better than that version of Bosh. He was still a force to be reckoned with down low, and drew way more defensive attention than Bosh.

Shaq was a -1.0 OBPM in the playoffs. That's not a tell all stat or anything but that usually doesn't happen with players who are having an impact on offense.

???

Shaq’s 06 playoff stats: 18.4/9.8 19.9 PER 57.1 ts% 1.8 BPM

Bosh’s 2011 playoffs: 18.6/8.5 18.4 PER 55.4 ts% -.6 BPM

If you’re gonna claim Bosh was better than Shaq, I don’t think numbers can be your argument.

Bosh wasn’t all that good in the playoffs during the Heat era in general, he helped spread the floor and could play some solid defense at times(though he got killed by Hibert and Duncan), but he wasn’t some super potent offensive player by any means and at times his offense could be downright terrible.

[Franco]

Embiid averaged 25/13 in the 1st round and was league leader in BPM going into the east finals. Embiid was still a very good player who just ran into a tough defense.

KG on the other hand was just an elite role player in the 2010's. He never showed he was himself anymore. Was never a great scorer to begin with but his game took a major hit after his 09 injury, lost a lot of his athleticism and cardio.

Garnett averages 15/5 against Prime Pau Gasol and Bynum: He became a bum! Washed up!

Embiid averages 17/8 against Marc Gasol and Siakam: He just had a tough series!

Bynum was on minute restriction that series and was coming off an injury, that's his excuse? KG didn't play like a superstar in any round that years playoffs, he could barely run.

And Embiid was both sick and injured against the Raptors for basically the whole series. The **** does it matter what happened in other rounds? Kyrie played like a star for the first round in 2015, doesn’t make him any less injured in the ECF and Finals.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Prime Wade we are talking about here! He won it with washed up Shaq, why not prime Bosh? 2011 Wade/Bosh probably win it all!

2012 is when Wade starts declining but is still a great player.

Are you saying that if James wasn't on the roster the Heat win it all even without Kawhi? As in Wade/Bosh plus the rest of that Heat team were title material?

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

So if James is gone, freeing up Dallas to make stopping Wade their number one priority, Wade does better and the Heat win the series? Wade couldn't get it done with Dallas focusing primarily on James, how on earth is he going to win that series if James is their main focus?

I don't know if you forgot or what, but James was the much better player against the Bulls the round before. The Wade/Bosh Heat aren't getting past them much less winning the finals. As bad as James was in the finals, I think Wade may have been worse against the Bulls.

Even if Bosh was better than Shaq, the rest of that roster was awful. It takes 7-9 players to win a title, not 2. That Heat team was super top heavy and not equipped to handle teams with quality depth.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Garnett averages 15/5 against Prime Pau Gasol and Bynum: He became a bum! Washed up!

Embiid averages 17/8 against Marc Gasol and Siakam: He just had a tough series!

Bynum was on minute restriction that series and was coming off an injury, that's his excuse? KG didn't play like a superstar in any round that years playoffs, he could barely run.

And Embiid was both sick and injured against the Raptors for basically the whole series. The **** does it matter what happened in other rounds? Kyrie played like a star for the first round in 2015, doesn’t make him any less injured in the ECF and Finals.

Embiid was still better defensively than 2010 KG, like I said he was league leader in BPM going into the ECF. Irving was injured in 2015 and if he was healthy the cavs win the title? What happened in other rounds always matters because that shows where the players are at in their careers. 2010 KG for an example was out of his prime or at the very end of his prime, he couldn't move the way he used to move from an athletic and mobility standpoint due to his 2009 injury and age\miles on his body. 2008 was the last year KG was great, he could of been a great #2 guy on a great team by 2010 but not a great 1st guy anymore.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Are you saying that if James wasn't on the roster the Heat win it all even without Kawhi? As in Wade/Bosh plus the rest of that Heat team were title material?

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

So if James is gone, freeing up Dallas to make stopping Wade their number one priority, Wade does better and the Heat win the series? Wade couldn't get it done with Dallas focusing primarily on James, how on earth is he going to win that series if James is their main focus?

I don't know if you forgot or what, but James was the much better player against the Bulls the round before. The Wade/Bosh Heat aren't getting past them much less winning the finals. As bad as James was in the finals, I think Wade may have been worse against the Bulls.

Even if Bosh was better than Shaq, the rest of that roster was awful. It takes 7-9 players to win a title, not 2. That Heat team was super top heavy and not equipped to handle teams with quality depth.

Since 2013 and 2014 are unrealistic anyway because Kawhi vs Kawhi scenario, lets plug in 2019 Kawhi for 2011 Lebron and make Wade the sidekick. That's a championship, I don't see Dallas stopping Kawhi at all. Tyson Chandler is about an equal anchor to M Gasol 2017? I don't think he's even as good as 2019 Embiid or Giannis as an anchor.

[Ainosterhaspie]

2011 Wade isn't sidekicking for 2019 Kawhi coming off a missed year and load managing all year while Wade carries them in his absence. That has chemistry problem written all over it.

James came into 2011 looking like a much more dominate player than Kawhi entering 2019 and Wade was having no part of taking a back seat.

[Ferulci]

Assuming Raptors Kawhi is part of prime Kawhi, 2. 2011 and 2012 (Celtics matchup might be harder but they still get through OKC easily).

[RCM88x]

Assuming Raptors Kawhi is part of prime Kawhi, 2. 2011 and 2012 (Celtics matchup might be harder but they still get through OKC easily).

If the Celtics match-up is any harder they lose though.

[DatAsh]

Yes, 2006-2011 Wade is a top 15 goat. Wade embarrassed Dirk once and he would do it again. Bosh is an upgrade over 2006 Shaq. It was LeBron who killed their chances that year.

So if James is gone, freeing up Dallas to make stopping Wade their number one priority, Wade does better and the Heat win the series? Wade couldn't get it done with Dallas focusing primarily on James, how on earth is he going to win that series if James is their main focus?

I don't know if you forgot or what, but James was the much better player against the Bulls the round before. The Wade/Bosh Heat aren't getting past them much less winning the finals. As bad as James was in the finals, I think Wade may have been worse against the Bulls.

Even if Bosh was better than Shaq, the rest of that roster was awful. It takes 7-9 players to win a title, not 2. That Heat team was super top heavy and not equipped to handle teams with quality depth.

Since 2013 and 2014 are unrealistic anyway because Kawhi vs Kawhi scenario, lets plug in 2019 Kawhi for 2011 Lebron and make Wade the sidekick. That's a championship, I don't see Dallas stopping Kawhi at all. Tyson Chandler is about an equal anchor to M Gasol 2017? I don't think he's even as good as 2019 Embiid or Giannis as an anchor.

No way would 2011 Wade be a side kick to 2019 Kawhi. 2010 Lebron was more dominant than 2018 Kawhi and Wade didn’t even take a back seat to him. Plus I just feel like 2011 Wade is a comfortably better player than 2019 Kawhi anyway.

Given how poorly Lebron played, I could see them beating the Mavericks though if Kawhi plays to his 2019 standards...if they get past the Bulls.

[Amares]

None of course. Current Kawhi is much worse than 2011-2014 LeBron.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

So if James is gone, freeing up Dallas to make stopping Wade their number one priority, Wade does better and the Heat win the series? Wade couldn't get it done with Dallas focusing primarily on James, how on earth is he going to win that series if James is their main focus?

I don't know if you forgot or what, but James was the much better player against the Bulls the round before. The Wade/Bosh Heat aren't getting past them much less winning the finals. As bad as James was in the finals, I think Wade may have been worse against the Bulls.

Even if Bosh was better than Shaq, the rest of that roster was awful. It takes 7-9 players to win a title, not 2. That Heat team was super top heavy and not equipped to handle teams with quality depth.

Since 2013 and 2014 are unrealistic anyway because Kawhi vs Kawhi scenario, lets plug in 2019 Kawhi for 2011 Lebron and make Wade the sidekick. That's a championship, I don't see Dallas stopping Kawhi at all. Tyson Chandler is about an equal anchor to M Gasol 2017? I don't think he's even as good as 2019 Embiid or Giannis as an anchor.

No way would 2011 Wade be a side kick to 2019 Kawhi. 2010 Lebron was more dominant than 2018 Kawhi and Wade didn’t even take a back seat to him. Plus I just feel like 2011 Wade is a comfortably better player than 2019 Kawhi anyway.

Given how poorly Lebron played, I could see them beating the Mavericks though if Kawhi plays to his 2019 standards...if they get past the Bulls.

I think that part of it is overrated, wade/kawhi can just be 1a and 1b like Durant/Curry. LeBron fans just use the "wade didn't want to be 2nd option" stuff because they are attempting to give LeBron an excuse for choking in the finals.

Wade is inferior to Kawhi as a shooter, scorer, defender, rebounder, leader. I don't see the case for any version of Wade over 17/19 Leonard besides Leonard was injured by Zaza.

[Ainosterhaspie]

LeBron fans just use the "wade didn't want to be 2nd option" stuff because they are attempting to give LeBron an excuse for choking in the finals.

Has anyone ever made that argument? They would have won if LeBron played better, and Wade wanting to be 1a/1b had nothing to do with other than perhaps LeBron being petulant, which is inexcusable.

Wade steping back in 12 did make the team better, but his failures to do so earlier isn't what cost the Heat the series in 2011.

Wade is inferior to Kawhi as a shooter, scorer, defender, rebounder, leader. I don't see the case for any version of Wade over 17/19 Leonard besides Leonard was injured by Zaza.

It doesn't matter if Wade is inferior as you claim. Wade certainly wouldn't have seen himself as Kawhi's sidekick or played like one. Wade didn't see himself as James sidekick when James was coming off back to back MVP seasons. He not taking a back seat to load managed Kawhi coming back from missing an entire season with an injury. He's not taking a back seat to 17 Kawhi, the defensive specialist who is just beginning to show great offensive talent.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

LeBron fans just use the "wade didn't want to be 2nd option" stuff because they are attempting to give LeBron an excuse for choking in the finals.

Has anyone ever made that argument? They would have won if LeBron played better, and Wade wanting to be 1a/1b had nothing to do with other than perhaps LeBron being petulant, which is inexcusable.

Wade steping back in 12 did make the team better, but his failures to do so earlier isn't what cost the Heat the series in 2011.

Wade is inferior to Kawhi as a shooter, scorer, defender, rebounder, leader. I don't see the case for any version of Wade over 17/19 Leonard besides Leonard was injured by Zaza.

It doesn't matter if Wade is inferior as you claim. Wade certainly wouldn't have seen himself as Kawhi's sidekick or played like one. Wade didn't see himself as James sidekick when James was coming off back to back MVP seasons. He not taking a back seat to load managed Kawhi coming back from missing an entire season with an injury. He's not taking a back seat to 17 Kawhi, the defensive specialist who is just beginning to show great offensive talent.

I don't get it? So if Wade is not taking a step back and Kawhi doesn't choke like Lebron did? They easily beat Mavs as the 1a and 1b like Curry\Durant. The only argument for Lebron's case is if Wade refused to play second fiddle and that's what threw Lebron off his game. You are saying it didn't effect Lebron at all and Lebron flat out choked? That's easy than, Kawhi wins the title guaranteed.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Part of the issue is you keep changing what you're talking about so the logic thread is getting broken.

You initially made a claim that the 2011 Heat minus LeBron (not replacing LeBron with Kawhi) would have won the title. That's a fairly audacious claim so I asked about it in case I was misunderstanding when you meant that the Heat with Kawhi in place of LeBron would win. You confirmed that yes you truly believed that the Heat win simply by removing LeBron because Bosh was better than '06 Shaq. (As an aside, it should be noted here that if the Heat win the title without James or Kawhi, it's hardly impressive that Kawhi could win by joining a team that would win without him.)

At that point I respond by arguing that, no the 2011 Heat don't win the title by dropping James and probably don't even make the finals. You then quote that response and pivot into talking about what the Heat would do with the addition of Kawhi which has no relevance to the point at hand. That makes the discussion fall apart.

So now there is a new train of thought, i.e. how would the Heat do with Kawhii plugged in in place of James., which is not connected to the previous one, i.e. his would the Heat do if James were removed. (The new train of thought is what the OP is about, but not what we were talking about in the posts that led up to you saying "[let's] make Wade the sidekick" to Kawhi.)

I responed to your assertion that 2011 Wade would be the sidekick by twice arguing that he would not accept a sidekick role to any version of Kawhi. I did not speak to whether the pairing would win the 2011 finals.

Datash echos my claim that Wade isn't sidekicking for Kawhi and agrees with you that the Wade/Kawhi pairing probably beats the Mavericks. For some reason you quote that and claim people are using the 1a/1b thing as an excuse for LeBron.

I reply by stating that no one is making that claim and that if they did it would be a wrong claim to make. You are confused by this because your train of though isn't rational and you aren't paying attention to the arguments being made. You are making connections that aren't there, so when someone calls out one of the premises you use to reach a conclusion for being flawed, you mistakenly believe that the conclusion is being attacked. You conclusion may be correct, but your support for it isn't.

In other words, Datash and I aren't saying the Heat couldn't beat the Mavericks if Kawhi replaced James, we do however disagree with claims you make in support of that conclusion.

[freethedevil]

Peak Kawhi Leonard just came off from having the greatest East playoff-run since the days of Michael Jordan.

The man eliminated Magic (best defensive team post AS-break), 76ers with their 4 All-Stars & Giannis-lead Bucks.

Never mind that Kawhi avg. 30.5/9/4 on 49/38/88 with 62 TS%

He is definitely good enough to win 2 titles or perhaps even a 3-peat (from 2011-2013).

I mean LeBron joined a stacked deck to get himself in a better position to win rings.

Why do people bring up stuff like “best defense post all-star break”? The Magic weren’t some hidden powerhouse.

No, but they were playing like a 50 win team by the time they were in the playoffs making them unsually strong for a first round team.