E-Balla wrote:This is a good post I wanna scrutinize a bit because there's a few assumptions made for reasons I don't get.JoeMalburg wrote:Good discussion emerging around LeBron James' peak season as he seems to be the majority choice for #2 peak. I wanted to weigh in even though he is my second choice behind Wilt Chamberlain at this point. I have a bit of a different take than most in terms of the way I approach the question. I don't really think using statistical arguments is particularly relevant here. I think the numbers from any of the seasons being discussed gives plenty of reason for why you'd have LeBron second, but when it comes to discerning between various versions of James at his best, I think there is very little difference between how good LeBron was in 2009 vs. 2010, 2012 vs. 2013 or 2016 vs. 2017. The statistical variance is much more dependent on extenuating circumstances than any appreciable change in the level of player James was.
This being the biggest one. Maybe 16 vs 17 that's accurate, but for 09 vs 10 there's a clear gap, 2009 LeBron gave it all at all times. 2010 LeBron gave up on his team (which packed talent just as much as the 09 Cavs) in a playoff series.Here's how I see it. You're picking your preferred version of LeBron during his peak decade, 2009-2018.(Let's think about that quickly, "peak decade". Who else has one of those? Kareem and Karl Malone, maybe. I think that's it.) We can rule out 2011 and 2014 for sure. 2015 probably doesn't make the cut either. 2018 is a long shot it seems like. So it comes down to six seasons, or more simply, three sets of consecutive seasons:
2009 and 2010, with 2009 seeming like the heavily preferred choice.
2012 and 2013, with 2013 having the small but clear edge.
So we go again, can anyone arguing 2013 over 2012 explain how LeBron had a better season without ignoring the entirety of the playoffs? Remember this whole discussion started because someone was confused on why anyone would possibly pick 2013 and I responded to that post with a long drawn out case against LeBron in 2013. I have still got zero responses that do anything besides state things that spots in the face of all evidence.2016 and 2017, with 2016 seeming like the better choice because of the ring.
I think from there you have to look at the tangible differences, transportable to any hypothetical season between those versions of LeBron regardless of optimal or mitigating factors that emerged during those actual seasons. A couple of examples...
2009 LeBron has the greatest level of energy and athletic ability and least amount of wear and tear on his body. His physical advantage over the competition rivals that of WIlt and Shaq, but his overall skill level is probably the lowest of the three versions. He also has the least experience and the most to prove, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective. He is dominant from start to finish in the regular season, giving maximum effort on both ends all the time. There is little difference between regular season and playoff Lebron with this version.
He was 24 years old and beloved he had nothing to prove. 2011 LeBron is the version with the most to prove. 2012 is the year he had the most to prove outside of that. Picture this:
2007: 22 years old. Gets to the Finals. Hype off the walls.
2008: 23 years old. Closely contests the champions. First time people started thinking he might be the best in the league.
2009: 24 years old. Clearly the best player in the league and has one of the best seasons ever leading mincemeat and defensive role players to 66 wins.
2010: 25 years old, repeat MVP. Gives up on his team in the playoffs. Takes heavy criticism for it.
2011. 26 years old. After giving up on Cleveland he shakes the world up by going to Miami. The narrative is always that he can't win, now he has no excuses and people are pitching Miami reaching 70 wins. They make the Finals. His former Finals MVP teammate plays out of his mind. He has the worst finals a superstar has ever had.
2012: Clearly the villain of the league. He lost last year with the most stacked team ever to lose all off his bad play. If he can't win it now, after 2 years with one of the most stacked teams ever he's a failure.
There's a clear crescendo up to 2011 in terms of expectations and narratives of what LeBron needed to do to prove himself as a potential GOAT level player. He lost that year, but you could argue that elevated what he had to prove in 2012.2016 LeBron is a veteran who can dominate the game with far less energy than 2009 version, the most experienced, proven and confident version here. His skill level and basketball IQ peak here, but physically he's got a ton of miles on him and while still an elite athlete, he's clearly not at his peak. This LeBron has the largest regular to postseason chasm. You're going to see him coast, especially on defense during the regular season and he may not have the ability to fully turn it on defensively like he could in the 2009 or 2013 version.
2013 LeBron, chronologically and comparatively is a version in between the other two. He is still an elite athlete, might even still be at or very near his peak, but he doesn't have it turned up to eleven at all times. He's a better shooter and more efficient offensive player than 2009 LeBron and a more engaged and impactful defender than 2016 Lebron. This LeBron doesn't coast all the time, but clearly picks his spots and is more interested in being efficient and consistent than he is in winning every single possession of every single game.
We can compare these versions by the numbers, which I think ignores a lot of things we can say with certainty were factors, or we can take each version of LeBron and try to transport him into hypothetical situations that commonly occur and decide based on those more intangible distinctions which version we prefer to try and win a title with.
For me it's...
2013
2009
2016
But I'm fine with any one of them finishing 1st-5th in this project.
I think the main issue here is people are clearly forgetting how keyed in LeBron was in the 2012 playoffs. That was the face of a player that wouldn't lose. We didn't get that drive or effort in 2013 at all.
While this narrative around LBJ seems to closely mirror what happened from my perspective, the amount of hate I get for saying LBJ gave up in the 2010 playoffs is mindblowing. I'm not sure why you seem to escape criticism for stating the exact same thing, with far less detail and support backing up your opinion....
It honestly seemed like he had already decided to bail on cleveland before that series even started.
We do seem to have different opinions on LBJ's shooting ability and how 'the only thing holding him back was himself' - I never understood why teams weren't daring him to shoot prior to that series, and I disagree that he was holding himself back. LBJ is a streaky shooter, and there's a reason he isn't taking many outside shots per game. His playmaking also depends on him getting to the basket - he's a far worse perimeter scorer and playmaker than Kobe or KD (maybe slightly better playmaking than KD).
LBJ is a career 34% 3 point shooter. He doesn't average over 50% FG from anywhere outside of 3 feet. Many of his shots from outside the paint have not been closely contested, as defenders sag off of him to challenge his drives - and he'll shoot to punish them. Those perimeter shots averaged out aren't by any stretch 'elite', though. On top of that, he won't get teammates open and run many set plays as a playmaker other than play in the post/drive to the hoop.
I have '15 and '12 as LBJ's best years. I didn't get to see good amounts of the '16 Finals though, and it's one of the rare times LBJ was playing underdog and had people cheering for him to slay Curry who was "ruining the league".
On my top 10 rankings, probably going to look something like
1. Wilt
2. Shaq
3. MJ
4. Steph Curry
5. Larry Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Kareem
8. LBJ
9. Magic
10. Dr J
Steph Curry in 2016, while healthy, was unlike anything that the league has ever seen. He was unstoppable on the level of Shaq. Popovich eventually came up with a scheme to defend him that is now normal for the league (switching everything), but before the idea of switching he was unstoppable off of any big man screen. The Warriors were blowing out teams before even reaching the 4th quarter, and opposing teams had no clue on how to stop it. They won 73 games and made it look easy.
People weren't comparing Curry to LBJ. They weren't comparing him to LBJ. They were comparing him to Michael Jordan. people wonder why other players don't respect him... he was shrugging his shoulders and giggling on their homecourts.
I would like to make an early case to give Curry consideration for this top 5 rankings, as before his MCL injury there wasn't a year like that in modern NBA memory.
