If Lebron is the GOAT then how did he allow younger star players to catch him in rings already in his era?

Gooner · Post #61 » by **Gooner** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:15 pm

Yogatti wrote:Nobody’s perfect and Lebron is not the GOAT. That would be Michael Jordan. Despite all your point, Lebron is top 10 all time and best small forward of all time

Best small forward is Larry Bird. Everybody disrespects the Legend.

FlatearthZorro · Post #62 » by **FlatearthZorro** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:23 pm

Joerezz7 wrote:He allowed younger star players like Steph and Klay to catch him in rings and they are younger. If KD played against the Raptors they would have more rings than him and KD would have the same amount of rings as him.

This is why Lebron will never be in the same tier as Kobe and MJ. MJ went 6-0 in the Finals and Kobe went 5-2 in the Finals. Kobe would never allow younger star players to catch him in rings in his era. Same with MJ.

How can you be the GOAT when younger star players catch you in rings basically forming a dynasty in your era? Let’s not forget Dirk getting a ring in his era and he lost to a bum like Dwight Howard in 2009. Lakers manhandled that same Magic team.

Unless Lebron wins another ring you can’t put him in the same tier as lethal offense players like Kobe and MJ.

Well it's pretty simple, he's not the GOAT, never was, never has been and he actually knows it, that's why he looks kinda timid every time he says it. Dude isn't even close. He's been manipulating the entire league and has had the league by the balls(being the biggest star, etc) and he still has only 3 titles. I can only justify his first loss in the Finals vs the Spurs and the one where the entire Cavs team was injured vs the Warriors, rest I can't.

The_Hater · Post #63 » by **The_Hater** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:23 pm

Reeko wrote:
GeorgeMarcus wrote:
Reeko wrote:
Wow, they are younger stars AND they really are younger than LeBron. This thread has been a true revelation.

What's next, they were born in years that came after the year LeBron was born?

I am on the edge of my seat with anticipation waiting to see what gem he will drop on us next.

He’ll stay up night after night trying to cook up something new in his troll lab just to feed the adoring masses.

LKN · Post #64 » by **LKN** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:24 pm

It's possible to think rings are one factor that does matter some in the GOAT debate without agreeing with the ridiculous premise of this thread.

Also - finals record is dumb - people should stop bringing that up. Although making the finals and losing isn't really any different from making the conference finals and losing if the other conference was going to win the title anyways... so let's not overrate "making the finals" either.

I have MJ as the #1... but LBJ is right there at 2 or 3 depending on how you feel about KAJ. MJ and Lebron produced higher volumes of efficient (don't forget turnovers!) offense than any other player in NBA history.

Really we should have more threads talking about how MJ and Lebron don't have any peers on the offensive end of the floor except each other. When you look at the combination of PTs/100, AST% and TOV% LBJ and MJ are in a class of their own.

FlatearthZorro · Post #65 » by **FlatearthZorro** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:26 pm

Yogatti wrote:Nobody’s perfect and Lebron is not the GOAT. That would be Michael Jordan. Despite all your point, Lebron is top 10 all time and best small forward of all time

I'd give him that, if Bird was healthier and had a longer career, I believe there wouldn't be a doubt who the best SF of all-time is/was.

theFireBlanket · Post #66 » by **theFireBlanket** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:51 pm

LKN wrote:Really we should have more threads talking about how MJ and Lebron don't have any peers on the offensive end of the floor except each other. When you look at the combination of PTs/100, AST% and TOV% LBJ and MJ are in a class of their own.

Giannis just posted basically the same o/d rtg per 100 as LeBron at ages 24.

G 121/99, L 122/99. His Ast/Turnover isn't on the same level but overall rating isn't hurt much.

LKN · Post #67 » by **LKN** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:54 pm

theFireBlanket wrote:
LKN wrote:Really we should have more threads talking about how MJ and Lebron don't have any peers on the offensive end of the floor except each other. When you look at the combination of PTs/100, AST% and TOV% LBJ and MJ are in a class of their own.

Giannis just posted basically the same o/d rtg per 100 as LeBron at ages 24.

G 121/99, L 122/99. His Ast/Turnover isn't on the same level but overall rating isn't hurt much.

If Giannis could improve on the offensive end he actually IMO has an outside shot of getting in the GOAT conversation.

He's already more impactful on defense than MJ or Lebron ever were.

Showdown · Post #68 » by **Showdown** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:56 pm

Catching Lebron in rings isn't that hard

NeutralObserver · Post #69 » by **NeutralObserver** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:06 pm

lakerz12 wrote:
leolozon wrote:I’ve been watching basketball for a long time and I swore I thought it was team sport... oh well, now that I know it’s an individual sport I won’t bother watching the 8 other guys on the court. I can’t wait for Lebron to play Curry!!! Thanks OP, you opened my eyes.

Then tell everyone to stop saying LeBron beat the 73-9 Warriors.

That would require some level of basic consistency from LeBron stans.

Even the "individual accomplishments" that they care about are still predicated on team achievements. If Ray Allen or Kyrie don't hit either one of those shots, dude wouldn't have 2 extra finals mvps...which is something LeBron stans hang their hats on.

theFireBlanket · Post #70 » by **theFireBlanket** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:08 pm

LKN wrote:
theFireBlanket wrote:
LKN wrote:Really we should have more threads talking about how MJ and Lebron don't have any peers on the offensive end of the floor except each other. When you look at the combination of PTs/100, AST% and TOV% LBJ and MJ are in a class of their own.

Giannis just posted basically the same o/d rtg per 100 as LeBron at ages 24.

G 121/99, L 122/99. His Ast/Turnover isn't on the same level but overall rating isn't hurt much.

If Giannis could improve on the offensive end he actually IMO has an outside shot of getting in the GOAT conversation.

He's already more impactful on defense than MJ or Lebron ever were.

Jason Kidd screwed him up a bit but it'll come around. His work ethic is up there.

After he played his first preseason games for Milwaukee, I knew he'd be in that conversation.. The defensive intensity he had right out of the gate was insane, as were the coast to coast dunks that followed.

His defense will only get better too. Thanasis, his older brother is all hustle & will be with him all season.

NeutralObserver · Post #71 » by **NeutralObserver** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:11 pm

Is there any other fanbase in ANY SPORT that manufactured "finals appearances" as an accolade?

Imagine if your idol lost so much that you've created an alternate reality where winning just "doesn't matter". Lol.

Bergmaniac · Post #72 » by **Bergmaniac** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:31 pm

It is almost like basketball is a team sport or something...

LipSkinMatter · Post #73 » by **LipSkinMatter** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:39 pm

In some people's minds one basketball player can control literally the entire outcome of a game. Confounding factors DO NOT EXIST and the other players on the court DO NOT EXIST.

NeutralObserver wrote:Is there any other fanbase in ANY SPORT that manufactured "finals appearances" as an accolade?

Imagine if your idol lost so much that you've created an alternate reality where winning just "doesn't matter". Lol.

Only in your incredibly warped perception of events could LeBron James be somebody described as a player who has "lost so much" ... :crazy:

ProspectPark · Post #74 » by **ProspectPark** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:17 pm

Is this seriously the GOAT?

Last minute of a 1 possession game in the Finals. Has Steph on an island. Clear path to the rim.

Instead of driving it on Curry, shooting over Curry, or posting Curry up...he decides to pass it to Tristan Thompson who is being guarded by DPOY Draymond Green.

Even worse, on the next possession, wants no part of guarding KD. Will let Rodney Hood who is in his first playoffs, guard the greatest scorer in the game.

But hey Lebron had a high PER so it’s all good :lol:

Watch on YouTube

RoyceDa59 · Post #75 » by **RoyceDa59** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:18 pm

I can't believe James let Klay catch him in Rings.

Klay or Jordan, who has a better claim to GOAT?

Mogspan · Post #76 » by **Mogspan** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:29 pm

Joerezz7 wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:If you're the best player in the league by far then your peers shouldn't have the same or nearly the same accomplishments or even better accomplishments than you.

When Jordan learned to win, he didn't lose untill his organization didn't wanna pay him nemore. No1 ate when Jordan ate.

Kobe 3peat, then 2

Shaq 3peat, cut, won one with flash

LeBron well we know how that story played out, everyone ate during the LeBron era.

You gotta give LeBron that, he shared the wealth. Shared the money, shared the trophies

People don’t understand this. They rather deflect and make the conversation about role players like Robert Horry and Steve Kerr

That was maybe the case in more primitive eras where iso ball was more effective. Nowadays, team composition is more important. I don't know how one actually believes that Kobe has a case over LeBron. He has much worse box score and impact stats, 3 fewer MVPs, and 2 FMVPs to LeBron's 3. He's basically a slower, puny LeBron who couldn't jump as high or pass well.. but he had Shaq and Phil Jackson, so 5 rangs.

The4thHorseman · Post #77 » by **The4thHorseman** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:55 pm

jk31 wrote:
Joerezz7 wrote:He allowed younger star players like Steph and Klay to catch him in rings and they are younger. If KD played against the Raptors they would have more rings than him and KD would have the same amount of rings as him.

This is why Lebron will never be in the same tier as Kobe and MJ. MJ went 6-0 in the Finals and Kobe went 5-2 in the Finals. Kobe would never allow younger star players to catch him in rings in his era. Same with MJ.

MJ "lost" 7 times before reaching the finals. Kobe lost 8 times. LeBron lost 4 times.

All of this "he lost this and this many times in the finals" is so annoying. Why is it better to net even reach the finals than to loose in the finals?

Actually Kobe only lost 3 times before reaching the Finals. He wasn't the Lakers franchise player until his 9th season so that's when his career started as the man / captain. His first year LA missed the playoffs and then they were ousted in the first round the next 2 seasons.

Finals run came to an end at 3 in a row when Dallas swept LA in 2011. So technically he has 2 rings and 2FMVP in 3 appearances

DreamTeam09 · Post #78 » by **DreamTeam09** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:00 pm

Stillwater wrote:yeah I guess Patrick McCaw is in the GOAT convo now? wtf about rings.
Lebron is the GOAT and the GOAT did not have nor will he ever have the most rings regardless

You obviously know when ppl talk about rings in the context of greats, they're talking about as a 1 or 1a option. People who bring up non-greats in that argument are being trivial.

You obviously on your own the difference between Patrick McCaw having 3 rings or Horry having a bunch of rings is different than LeBron 3 rings

The4thHorseman · Post #79 » by **The4thHorseman** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:01 pm

NeutralObserver wrote:Is there any other fanbase in ANY SPORT that manufactured "finals appearances" as an accolade?

Why do you think it's better to lose in the first round (or not even make the playoffs) than it is to play for a ring?

TurinTurambar · Post #80 » by **TurinTurambar** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:29 pm

I just think its a shame that basketball fans have allowed the discussion of the value of winning to devolve into the silliness that we see over and over again, including in this very thread.

If I never have to read, "Well Robert Horry has 7 rings so I guess he's better than LeBron" or, "Ringzzzzzzz" (or however its being spelled that day) again, I'll still be annoyed I had to sift through it as much as I did.