Greater: Kobe Bryant vs Stephen Curry

[dhsilv2]

Have to pick Kobe, Steph never had defenses focus on just him. Kobe after Shaq and before Gasol had to do it alone. Steph hasn’t yet.

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

[snaquille oatmeal]

Have to pick Kobe, Steph never had defenses focus on just him. Kobe after Shaq and before Gasol had to do it alone. Steph hasn’t yet.

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

Sorry but no.

[LKN]

His offensive impact is on a different level than Kobe's. I can throw out all the impact metrics that demonstrate as much, but that doesn't resonate with everybody. So I'll do it by efficiency.

By TS%:

Spoiler:

17-18 Curry: 67.5
15-16 Curry: 66.9
18-19 Curry: 64.1
14-15 Curry: 63.8
16-17 Curry: 62.4
13-14 Curry: 61.0
11-12 Curry: 60.5
10-11 Curry: 59.5
12-13 Curry: 58.9
06-07 Kobe: 58.0
07-08 Kobe: 57.6
12-13 Kobe: 57.0
09-10 Curry: 56.8
04-05 Kobe: 56.3
08-09 Kobe: 56.1
05-06 Kobe: 55.9
00-01 Kobe: 55.2
03-04 Kobe: 55.1
02-03 Kobe: 55.0
98-99 Kobe: 54.9
97-98 Kobe: 54.8
10-11 Kobe: 54.8
99-00 Kobe: 54.6
09-10 Kobe: 54.5
96-97 Kobe: 54.4
01-02 Kobe: 54.4
11-12 Kobe: 52.7
13-14 Kobe: 50.5
14-15 Kobe: 47.7
15-16 Kobe: 46.9

Beyond that, Curry's off ball gravity and ability to play within the flow of the offense is more valuable than Kobe's iso-mode.

Regarding your question about defense, it really comes down to his defensive impact not aligning with his accomplishments. You'll find this to be a consensus opinion on the PC board, not that you should just believe what other people tell you.

Curry obviously would still come out ahead... but you should at least be using relative TS. Cross season/era TS comparisons are fairly useless/meaningless.

TS is also somewhat of an overrated metric that ignores a lot of things (and to be clear - I'm not disagreeing with your premise... I just think posting a bunch of TS numbers like this isn't a great way to prove it).

I actually something along these lines.



2019 is around the allstar break and Curry dropped off from that freaky high point but the data otherwise is valid.

Yes - that's much better. It still ignores things like TOV, ORTG (and ORTG relative to team), etc,etc..but not sure we really need to spend all that time here since Curry would still come out well ahead on the offensive end . (and I know you know all this stuff... just kind of annoyed with the overuse of TS as some kind of all encompassing metric around here).

[ccameron]

Curry had a higher offensive peak, but Kobe was a significantly better defender.
Kobe also had greater longevity, assuming a normal decline curve for Curry. Kobe was also the unquestioned best player on two title teams, while Curry only one. Curry also doesn't have a FMVP, while Kobe has 2.

It's a good comparison, but I feel like it's Kobe pretty comfortably tbh.

on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"

Generally, if your favorite player isn't great at skill X, there's a good chance you don't really think skill X is that important. On ball defense for a guard is definitely important. And arguably it was even more important in Kobe's era than it is now with more restrictions now than ever, so you need to look at it from that angle.

But even now, this is a league where almost all the stars are perimeter players. Perimiter defense is the first line of defense. It determines their first step. If the opposing team has a star perimiter player (which is guaranteed right now, every team that is a threat right now has a star perimeter player), having someone who can harrass them is definitely valuable. Kobe could do that.

Lots of guys might have a higher peak than Kobe, and I include Steph in that category, but IMO it's going to be hard for Steph to catch Kobe, 1) because of longevity, and 2) It's really hard to argue against his results.

I think Kobe is overrated by the casual fan, and underrated by people who are obsessed with advanced metrics.

[Clyde Frazier]

Kobe obviously. How the heck is the poll 22-14?! Should be 20-2 IMO. Either we have alot of millenials on this website (probably true) and alot of haters who saw Kobe beat their teams in dominant fashion from 1998-2013 (also true).

Y'all disgust me.

Nice blanket millennial mention. Plenty of millennials watched Kobe's entire career.

[dhsilv2]

Have to pick Kobe, Steph never had defenses focus on just him. Kobe after Shaq and before Gasol had to do it alone. Steph hasn’t yet.

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

Sorry but no.

Odom was much better than Dray? I think you're underrating Dray's passing ability.

[dhsilv2]

Curry had a higher offensive peak, but Kobe was a significantly better defender.
Kobe also had greater longevity, assuming a normal decline curve for Curry. Kobe was also the unquestioned best player on two title teams, while Curry only one. Curry also doesn't have a FMVP, while Kobe has 2.

It's a good comparison, but I feel like it's Kobe pretty comfortably tbh.

on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"

Generally, if your favorite player isn't great at skill X, there's a good chance you don't really think skill X is that important. On ball defense for a guard is definitely important. And arguably it was even more important in Kobe's era than it is now with more restrictions now than ever, so you need to look at it from that angle.

But even now, this is a league where almost all the stars are perimeter players. Perimiter defense is the first line of defense. It determines their first step. If the opposing team has a star perimiter player (which is guaranteed right now, every team that is a threat right now has a star perimeter player), having someone who can harrass them is definitely valuable. Kobe could do that.

Lots of guys might have a higher peak than Kobe, and I include Steph in that category, but IMO it's going to be hard for Steph to catch Kobe, 1) because of longevity, and 2) It's really hard to argue against his results.

I think Kobe is overrated by the casual fan, and underrated by people who are obsessed with advanced metrics.

We have RAPM data back to the late 90's. The best on ball guys rarely measure out as well as the elite off ball guys. This has been shown in nearly every measure we have. While defensive metrics are perfect the trend is FAR too consistent to argue that on ball is or was ever even half of defensive impact for any position. And if anything on ball defense is more important today not the other way around.

[dhsilv2]

Curry obviously would still come out ahead... but you should at least be using relative TS. Cross season/era TS comparisons are fairly useless/meaningless.

TS is also somewhat of an overrated metric that ignores a lot of things (and to be clear - I'm not disagreeing with your premise... I just think posting a bunch of TS numbers like this isn't a great way to prove it).

I actually something along these lines.



2019 is around the allstar break and Curry dropped off from that freaky high point but the data otherwise is valid.

Yes - that's much better. It still ignores things like TOV, ORTG (and ORTG relative to team), etc,etc..but not sure we really need to spend all that time here since Curry would still come out well ahead on the offensive end . (and I know you know all this stuff... just kind of annoyed with the overuse of TS as some kind of all encompassing metric around here).

Sure, but the most powerful part of Curry's stats. The more he shoots, the higher his TS%. That's generally true to a degree, but it's staggeringly true with Curry. I thought I had a kobe one (I know I made one). But there's far less of that relationship.

[Lockdown504090]

Mindlessly looking at the stats and saying kobe was worse offensively by a mile is silliness.
1. Kobe played in THE hardest to score era. There was the modern defenses with overloading a side as they took out defensive three seconds,in addition to not having the spacing that stars enjoy now(reason tom Thibbedau teams were so strong on D). If you put kobe on the warriors in 16' it would be a joke how great his stats would be
2. System. in the seasons without shaq, he still played in the antiquated triangle which resulted in him taking a lot of bailout shots and favored a slower tempo and using two big men lineups.
3.kobe at 34 and declining in 2013 played in the more modern offense and put up 27 ppg having the same ts as lebron this season. I expect steph to maintain his efficiency for the most part, but expecting him to put up that kind of volume at kobe's age seems very unlikely.

[dhsilv2]

Mindlessly looking at the stats and saying kobe was worse offensively by a mile is silliness.
1. Kobe played in THE hardest to score era. There was the modern defenses with overloading a side as they took out defensive three seconds,in addition to not having the spacing that stars enjoy now(reason tom Thibbedau teams were so strong on D). If you put kobe on the warriors in 16' it would be a joke how great his stats would be
2. System. in the seasons without shaq, he still played in the antiquated triangle which resulted in him taking a lot of bailout shots and favored a slower tempo and using two big men lineups.
3.kobe at 34 and declining in 2013 played in the more modern offense and put up 27 ppg having the same ts as lebron this season. I expect steph to maintain his efficiency for the most part, but expecting him to put up that kind of volume at kobe's age seems very unlikely.

All metrics are adjusted for era and are relative to league, so your first point is wrong there (unless you're just discussing TS% which I partially addressed above). And the Thibbedau flooding didn't start till 08 and wasn't adopted into the league till the next few years. Kobe was already past his athletic prime and slowly declining.

[Triple7]

This is not Kobe easily as the poll suggest. Curry is already arguably the greatest offensive player in NBA history and it doesn't matter that Kobe has a defensive edge here, Curry's offense destroys his by several tiers.

No!

[TerryTate]

This debate should be over with the below post. No way in hell Curry ever gets even close to Kobe all time. Kobe's greatness is too far ahead for curry to ever get there.

P.S. Curry will win another title this year. Still wont be enough though.

At this moment clearly Bryant. His longeativity is just another level compared to Curry. Literally double the numbers in the most categories, awards, stats it doesn't matter.

Bryant is clear cut top 10 player. Curry at this time somewhere between 25-30.

Some career achievements so far:

Bryant:

• 5× NBA champion
• 2× NBA Finals MVP
• 1x MVP
• 18× NBA All-Star
• 4× NBA All-Star Game MVP
• 11× All-NBA First Team
• 2× All-NBA Second Team
• 2× All-NBA Third Team
• 9× NBA All-Defensive First Team
• 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team
• 2× NBA scoring champion

• 33,643 points
• 6,306 assists
• 7,047 rebounds

Curry:

• 3× NBA champion
• 2× MVP
• 6× NBA All-Star
• 3× All-NBA First Team
• 2× All-NBA Second Team
• 1x All-NBA Third Team
• 1x NBA scoring champion
• 1x NBA steals leader

• 16,315 points
• 4,588 assists
• 3,132 rebounds

There is just no argument career wise so far for him to be over Bryant and I don't think he ever gets there. He joined the league on older age and it took several years for him to reach his potential. It's not knock against Curry's career per say but Bryant is just different level of player and Curry is not there.

I lol'd when I saw All-Star Game MVP as a career achievement.
Ball hogs win that award.

[LKN]

Mindlessly looking at the stats and saying kobe was worse offensively by a mile is silliness.
1. Kobe played in THE hardest to score era. There was the modern defenses with overloading a side as they took out defensive three seconds,in addition to not having the spacing that stars enjoy now(reason tom Thibbedau teams were so strong on D). If you put kobe on the warriors in 16' it would be a joke how great his stats would be
2. System. in the seasons without shaq, he still played in the antiquated triangle which resulted in him taking a lot of bailout shots and favored a slower tempo and using two big men lineups.
3.kobe at 34 and declining in 2013 played in the more modern offense and put up 27 ppg having the same ts as lebron this season. I expect steph to maintain his efficiency for the most part, but expecting him to put up that kind of volume at kobe's age seems very unlikely.

Your argument on point one would be stronger if you brought up 99-04... which actually was (at least according to league ORTG) the hardest to score period in recent history.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Have to pick Kobe, Steph never had defenses focus on just him. Kobe after Shaq and before Gasol had to do it alone. Steph hasn’t yet.

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

I would say Klay is at least equal to Pau as an offensive player, much more explosive scorer. Overall player offense and defense is when Gasol beats out Klay.

[Ball so hard]

Even Steph himself would tell you Kobe has had the better career thus far. I don't even think it's close at the moment. It would be pretty hard to find actual NBA players who think Curry is better. The recency bias on this board is so over the top. Name a player who's currently playing who isn't better than those scrubs who played years ago.

[dhsilv2]

Have to pick Kobe, Steph never had defenses focus on just him. Kobe after Shaq and before Gasol had to do it alone. Steph hasn’t yet.

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

I would say Klay is at least equal to Pau as an offensive player, much more explosive scorer. Overall player offense and defense is when Gasol beats out Klay.

Higher PER, OBPM, Offensive WS/48, and ORAPM would have them about even (edge to klay in 15). Box metrics give a large lead to Gasol btw.

But even if we say they're equal, it makes my point none the less.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

I would say Klay is at least equal to Pau as an offensive player, much more explosive scorer. Overall player offense and defense is when Gasol beats out Klay.

Higher PER, OBPM, Offensive WS/48, and ORAPM would have them about even (edge to klay in 15). Box metrics give a large lead to Gasol btw.

But even if we say they're equal, it makes my point none the less.

Pau is a better overall player than klay and Draymond is a better overall player than Odom. It cancels out at the end I think.

[Ball so hard]

He won two MVPs and made back to back finals with the next best play offensively on his team being Klay Thompson who's a nice player but he's not the offensive player Gasol is. Draymond is also great to a degree but no better offensively than odom (ok you can debate that one but they're close enough).

I would say Klay is at least equal to Pau as an offensive player, much more explosive scorer. Overall player offense and defense is when Gasol beats out Klay.

Higher PER, OBPM, Offensive WS/48, and ORAPM would have them about even (edge to klay in 15). Box metrics give a large lead to Gasol btw.

But even if we say they're equal, it makes my point none the less.

With all due respect your argument is ridiculous. I know this might be a quaint idea, but stats don't explain everything. The time period in which a player played is just as important, if not more important than any advance stats you out there. If prime Gasol were playing today, you along with just everyone on this board would be saying Klay is a far better offensive player (primarily due to prime Gasol's inability to shoot the 3s). The same argument holds true in the opposite direction. Draymond's defensive impact is also considerably better than anything Odom did... this is not even close. You're being myopic by only mentioning Green's offense.

[dhsilv2]

I would say Klay is at least equal to Pau as an offensive player, much more explosive scorer. Overall player offense and defense is when Gasol beats out Klay.

Higher PER, OBPM, Offensive WS/48, and ORAPM would have them about even (edge to klay in 15). Box metrics give a large lead to Gasol btw.

But even if we say they're equal, it makes my point none the less.

With all due respect your argument is ridiculous. I know this might be a quaint idea, but stats don't explain everything. The time period in which a player played is just as important, if not more important than any advance stats you out there. If prime Gasol were playing today, you along with just everyone on this board would be saying Klay is a far better offensive player (primarily due to prime Gasol's inability to shoot the 3s). The same argument holds true in the opposite direction. Draymond's defensive impact is also considerably better than anything Odom did... this is not even close. You're being myopic by only mentioning Green's offense.

I responded to this statement

Have to pick Kobe, Steph never had defenses focus on just him. Kobe after Shaq and before Gasol had to do it alone. Steph hasn’t yet.

Why would I discuss defense given that context?

While perhaps I'm glossing over the gasol comment...kobe didn't really "do it" by any measure without other offensive players. Unless barely making the playoffs is a measure of greatness.

[Benedict_Boozer]

Is this seriously a debate? I'm not even a Kobe fan (at all) but I would take him easily over Curry.

Defensively no contest whatsoever. Kobe also a much better playoff performer on the big stage and skill wise, while not as good a shooter, I'd pretty much take every other aspect of his game over Curry. Maybe you could argue ball handling in favor of Curry but it's not like Kobe had a weak handle, he got wherever he wanted to on the court.

I don't know this isn't really that hard to me, I'd take Kobe without hesitation.