Greater: Kobe Bryant vs Stephen Curry

[levon]

A few weeks back I ran an analysis of offensive "potency" relative to season averages (I'll probably be sharing the notebook soon). I was really interested in comparing scoring dominance across eras.

What I found was that Lebron, Curry, and Durant were the 3 most offensively potent perimeter players of all-time, with Harden just trailing. Curry is an all-time great and largely hacked the game. Harden, Durant, Lebron too. But the 3 is a serious distorter of stats. If you can shoot the 3 at an above average efficiency at above average volume, you literally break the game open for your team. Every stat is affected by it. That's why I don't get overwhelmed by comparing across multiple stats: they're basically linear combinations of each other, so they're largely saying the same thing over and over.

Greatness imo is your ability to perform against odds, as well as longevity. 2016 remains a bad stain on Curry's legacy, like 2011 for Lebron or 2004 for Kobe, etc. I just don't (anecdotally) have enough evidence to put Curry above Kobe at this point in time. I wish my argument was more quantified. I may try to dig deeper into the numbers in the future if I have time.

tl;dr: I don't think career averages are all that useful about drawing conclusions about "greatness" across eras, since my definition of "greatness" is more about an average across discrete, critical events, and since the 3 has introduced this warped inflection point. Anecdotal evidence is brought up due to dearth of real quantitative analysis, but it shouldn't be dismissed for blunt career averages. The two should be working together to confirm/deny biases.

Also, tangent but, Lebron might be the greatest offensive player of all time given what he's able to achieve without shooting the 3 well. Not even accounting for his assisting.

[Danny1616]

Have you seen 4 defenders on Steph? I’ve seen 4 on Kobe.

You know why teams put 4 defenders on Kobe? Because they know he's not going to pass the ball. It was comical at times.

Steph is a much better passer than Kobe.

Wow you really bought into hype and fake news. Did you actually watch those games? Who is Kobe gonna pass to? Smush Parker? Kwame Brown? “I only make my threes in practice machine Vuyacich?
Give me a break!

It was really great watching Kobe take 30 shots a game for the Lakers to miss the playoffs or lose in the 1st round.

You really brought into the hype and fake news...did you watch those games?

[Odinn21]

Curry has won 70% of his playoff games vs Kobe's 61.4%. Curry has averaged more playoff points on way better efficiency. I'm just not seeing why Kobe is the superior playoff performer other than narrative.

Curry's playoff career started in 2013. So he played in 7 playoffs. I think volume holds a weight if this is the topic.
GSW record in the playoffs with Curry; 77W-35L (68.75%) from 2013 to 2019
LAL record in the playoffs with Bryant; 114W-56L (67.06%) from 2000 to 2010

Sure Kobe played alongside with Shaq and the Lakers went 64W-27L (70.33%) in the playoffs when the duo played. Bryant was blessed.
But Curry was also blessed with one of the loadest teams ever with KD's arrival. And his team was capable of going 9-3 in the playoffs without him. And Curry didn't had the lowpoint Kobe had.

I'm not saying Kobe's the better one or Steph's the better one. I'm saying we should wait to see how Curry's career'll play out. And so far, both players have cases for this argument.

[snaquille oatmeal]

You know why teams put 4 defenders on Kobe? Because they know he's not going to pass the ball. It was comical at times.

Steph is a much better passer than Kobe.

Wow you really bought into hype and fake news. Did you actually watch those games? Who is Kobe gonna pass to? Smush Parker? Kwame Brown? “I only make my threes in practice machine Vuyacich?
Give me a break!

It was really great watching Kobe take 30 shots a game for the Lakers to miss the playoffs or lose in the 1st round.

You really brought into the hype and fake news...did you watch those games?

Why aren’t you arguing my point? Who was Kobe supposed to pass?

Btw that stretch gave us classic games against the Suns, the Kobe 62-Mavs 61 in 3 quarters, the 81 point game and 8 games of 50 points or more tear.

[KyRo23]

Wow you really bought into hype and fake news. Did you actually watch those games? Who is Kobe gonna pass to? Smush Parker? Kwame Brown? “I only make my threes in practice machine Vuyacich?
Give me a break!

It was really great watching Kobe take 30 shots a game for the Lakers to miss the playoffs or lose in the 1st round.

You really brought into the hype and fake news...did you watch those games?

Why aren’t you arguing my point? Who was Kobe supposed to pass?

If you're being guarded by 4 guys, you can pass it to a local YMCA legend wide open for a bucket tbh lol

[XxIronChainzxX]

'stronger team'? meh...prime Shaq alone is probably worth Green/Klay combined...and 5 straight finals appearances, 3 titles, including a 73 win season...and from an advanced metrics standpoints it's not really all that close.

and Steph isn't even done...dude's still in his prime lol

Prime Shaq + Kobe, versus KD, Curry, Klay, and Steph in their respective eras? That Warriors team was better IMO, and they played one meaningful series in 3 years. The 3peat Lakers 15-1'd one playoffs, but had tough fights the other years.

Anyway, Steph needs more than just a couple of all-NBA teams. Even 1st teams. Another MVP at least, and a finals run. Then he's arguably close thanks to his peak. Still hard to see it on resume.

Durant wasn't there the entire time...Steph won 67+ring and 73+wcf before Durant got there...Kobe's first 3 rings he wasn't even the best player on his team and it really wasn't all that close...

Sure. Like I said - phenomenal peak. But it's a two year peak, and while I think Curry was the better player vs. KD with those rings, that is not the general view. At the end of the day, Curry has fewer rings, a shorter career albeit a monstrous peak, and fewer career accolades.

You could argue that Curry was a better player than Kobe over a 2 year period. We'll see where Curry goes from there. I just don't see how he could achieve enough to displace Kobe without another two years like his MVP run.

Kobe won repeat titles and went 6 with the Big 4 Celtics in his other loss, a 2-1 Finals record during the latter part of his prime. Less than Curry's 2 year peak, more than Curry's KD-related achivements.

[snaquille oatmeal]

It was really great watching Kobe take 30 shots a game for the Lakers to miss the playoffs or lose in the 1st round.

You really brought into the hype and fake news...did you watch those games?

Why aren’t you arguing my point? Who was Kobe supposed to pass?

If you're being guarded by 4 guys, you can pass it to a local YMCA legend wide open for a bucket tbh lol

Why do that when the percentage of Kobe making a basket is higher than passing the ball to Kwame Brown and expect him to catch it and make a basket.

[Danny1616]

Prime Shaq + Kobe, versus KD, Curry, Klay, and Steph in their respective eras? That Warriors team was better IMO, and they played one meaningful series in 3 years. The 3peat Lakers 15-1'd one playoffs, but had tough fights the other years.

Anyway, Steph needs more than just a couple of all-NBA teams. Even 1st teams. Another MVP at least, and a finals run. Then he's arguably close thanks to his peak. Still hard to see it on resume.

Durant wasn't there the entire time...Steph won 67+ring and 73+wcf before Durant got there...Kobe's first 3 rings he wasn't even the best player on his team and it really wasn't all that close...

Sure. Like I said - phenomenal peak. But it's a two year peak, and while I think Curry was the better player vs. KD with those rings, that is not the general view. At the end of the day, Curry has fewer rings, a shorter career albeit a monstrous peak, and fewer career accolades.

You could argue that Curry was a better player than Kobe over a 2 year period. We'll see where Curry goes from there. I just don't see how he could achieve enough to displace Kobe without another two years like his MVP run.

Kobe won repeat titles and went 6 with the Big 4 Celtics in his other loss, a 2-1 Finals record during the latter part of his prime. Less than Curry's 2 year peak, more than Curry's KD-related achivements.

See I agree with this.

Steph has a better peak, but Kobe has longevity.

I would personally take Steph over Kobe, but Kobe has overall had the better career given his accomplishments.

[dhsilv2]

You are not comparing the 2005-2007 Lakers rosters to the Warriors rosters are you? Maybe you misread my post. Mihm, Smush Parker, Odom, Kwame Brown did not attract defenses the way Thompson, Iggy, KD, Dray, Livingston do, come on bro!

So 3 years where the lakers made the playoffs twice and lost in the first round the other two times. I just assumed you weren't usin those as plus years for Kobe. Congrats he can shoot contested shots well?

You still don’t understand my original post. The comparison is between Steph and Kobe as to who is better right? So I said that Steph has not seen defenses that concentrate solely on him like Kobe did in the years between Shaq and Gasol. If the Warriors get gutted and only have Steph and a bunch of D-leaguers and still manage to make the playoffs then we can have a conversation.

So the fact that Curry is far better when they have similar casks should be ignored? Why? It's far more important to add value when your team is better than when it's a disaster.

[clyde21]

Prime Shaq + Kobe, versus KD, Curry, Klay, and Steph in their respective eras? That Warriors team was better IMO, and they played one meaningful series in 3 years. The 3peat Lakers 15-1'd one playoffs, but had tough fights the other years.

Anyway, Steph needs more than just a couple of all-NBA teams. Even 1st teams. Another MVP at least, and a finals run. Then he's arguably close thanks to his peak. Still hard to see it on resume.

Durant wasn't there the entire time...Steph won 67+ring and 73+wcf before Durant got there...Kobe's first 3 rings he wasn't even the best player on his team and it really wasn't all that close...

Sure. Like I said - phenomenal peak. But it's a two year peak, and while I think Curry was the better player vs. KD with those rings, that is not the general view. At the end of the day, Curry has fewer rings, a shorter career albeit a monstrous peak, and fewer career accolades.

You could argue that Curry was a better player than Kobe over a 2 year period. We'll see where Curry goes from there. I just don't see how he could achieve enough to displace Kobe without another two years like his MVP run.

Kobe won repeat titles and went 6 with the Big 4 Celtics in his other loss, a 2-1 Finals record during the latter part of his prime. Less than Curry's 2 year peak, more than Curry's KD-related achivements.

i can easily argue Steph's last 6 years > any 6 year span of Kobe's, not just 2 years

as for the accolades yes, Kobe's in front, but it's not like Steph's done yet, and already has plenty of hardware to boot, including another RS MVP over Kobe.

[KyRo23]

Why aren’t you arguing my point? Who was Kobe supposed to pass?

If you're being guarded by 4 guys, you can pass it to a local YMCA legend wide open for a bucket tbh lol

Why do that when the percentage of Kobe making a basket is higher than passing the ball to Kwame Brown and expect him to catch it and make a basket.

Please don't look at Kobe's FG%. You might be disappointed.

[snaquille oatmeal]

If you're being guarded by 4 guys, you can pass it to a local YMCA legend wide open for a bucket tbh lol

Why do that when the percentage of Kobe making a basket is higher than passing the ball to Kwame Brown and expect him to catch it and make a basket.

Please don't look at Kobe's FG%. You might be disappointed.

Nah it was fun watching a team that had no business making the playoffs make the playoffs. But seriously why are you and others here I might add derailing the argument that I made that Steph has not been the focus of defenses the way Kobe was when he had only scrubs for teammates therefore Steph has not proven that he can take a team of scrubs by himself to the playoffs.

[Danny1616]

Why do that when the percentage of Kobe making a basket is higher than passing the ball to Kwame Brown and expect him to catch it and make a basket.

Please don't look at Kobe's FG%. You might be disappointed.

Nah it was fun watching a team that had no business making the playoffs make the playoffs. But seriously why are you and others here I might add derailing the argument that I made that Steph has not been the focus of defenses the way Kobe was when he had only scrubs for teammates therefore Steph has not proven that he can take a team of scrubs by himself to the playoffs.

In 2013, Curry took a team with David Lee and Klay as a sophmore (who was not close to an all-star yet) to the 2nd round of the playoffs and made a series against the Spurs pretty damn competitive.

The year before the Warriors finished 23-43 with virtually the same team because Curry was out for most of the season with his ankle issues.

Do you suffer from short-term memory or anti-Curry syndrome?

[snaquille oatmeal]

Please don't look at Kobe's FG%. You might be disappointed.

Nah it was fun watching a team that had no business making the playoffs make the playoffs. But seriously why are you and others here I might add derailing the argument that I made that Steph has not been the focus of defenses the way Kobe was when he had only scrubs for teammates therefore Steph has not proven that he can take a team of scrubs by himself to the playoffs.

In 2013, Curry took a team with David Lee and Klay as a sophmore (who was not close to an all-star yet) to the 2nd round of the playoffs and made a series against the Spurs pretty damn competitive.

The year before the Warriors finished 23-43 with virtually the same team because Curry was out for most of the season with his ankle issues.

Do you suffer from short-term memory or anti-Curry syndrome?

Sorry man but that was not a scrub roster

[Danny1616]

Nah it was fun watching a team that had no business making the playoffs make the playoffs. But seriously why are you and others here I might add derailing the argument that I made that Steph has not been the focus of defenses the way Kobe was when he had only scrubs for teammates therefore Steph has not proven that he can take a team of scrubs by himself to the playoffs.

In 2013, Curry took a team with David Lee and Klay as a sophmore (who was not close to an all-star yet) to the 2nd round of the playoffs and made a series against the Spurs pretty damn competitive.

The year before the Warriors finished 23-43 with virtually the same team because Curry was out for most of the season with his ankle issues.

Do you suffer from short-term memory or anti-Curry syndrome?

Sorry man but that was not a scrub roster

So why did they finish 23-43 the year before with almost the same roster? Curry only played 23 games that season.

Curry had a magical post-season run in case you forgot...defeating the higher seeded Nuggets almost by himself.

You are so biased it's actually pretty funny.

[dho4ever]

Why do that when the percentage of Kobe making a basket is higher than passing the ball to Kwame Brown and expect him to catch it and make a basket.

Please don't look at Kobe's FG%. You might be disappointed.

Nah it was fun watching a team that had no business making the playoffs make the playoffs. But seriously why are you and others here I might add derailing the argument that I made that Steph has not been the focus of defenses the way Kobe was when he had only scrubs for teammates therefore Steph has not proven that he can take a team of scrubs by himself to the playoffs.

Im assuming we are discussing 2005-06? The lakers were a 7th seed while having the 6th best record.
It was a good accomplishment but looking at other teams that also made the playoffs, I don't think its surprising.

The 2005-06 Kings (8th seed) best player was Mike Bibby. Peja was injured and played 30 games. Second best player who played meaningful minutes was Brad Miller. And they had 40 games of Ron Artest. That team won 44 games. I fully expect a prime Kobe + Lamar to outperform that team, which they did.

2005-06 Clippers (6th seed) had Elton Brand at his best. 32 games of Corey Maggette. And a 36 year old Sam Cassell. They won 2 more games then the Lakers.

All in all, the Lakers weren't great that year but relative to the middle/bottom seeds of the western conference, they fit in and wasn't significantly worse. The lakers won 45 games that year. Without Kobe, I would say they would be near the bottom at 20 wins or less.
That's about what i would expect a superstar's impact to be. I don't think its an overachievement.

[snaquille oatmeal]

In 2013, Curry took a team with David Lee and Klay as a sophmore (who was not close to an all-star yet) to the 2nd round of the playoffs and made a series against the Spurs pretty damn competitive.

The year before the Warriors finished 23-43 with virtually the same team because Curry was out for most of the season with his ankle issues.

Do you suffer from short-term memory or anti-Curry syndrome?

Sorry man but that was not a scrub roster

So why did they finish 23-43 the year before with almost the same roster? Curry only played 23 games that season.

Curry had a magical post-season run in case you forgot...defeating the higher seeded Nuggets almost by himself.

You are so biased it's actually pretty funny.

That doesn’t change the fact that it was not a scrub roster.

[Danny1616]

Sorry man but that was not a scrub roster

So why did they finish 23-43 the year before with almost the same roster? Curry only played 23 games that season.

Curry had a magical post-season run in case you forgot...defeating the higher seeded Nuggets almost by himself.

You are so biased it's actually pretty funny.

That doesn’t change the fact that it was not a scrub roster.

Jarrett Jack was arguably their 2nd best player in the playoffs.

Roster was pretty weak outside of Curry for that year.

Klay was good but not near the player he is now. Draymond Green barely played at that point, Barnes was a decent rookie, and Lee was hurt most of the season.

As I said, the year before they had almost the same team but Curry was hurt for most of the season and they finished 23-43. A year later when Curry was healthy for a whole season they finished 47-35...what was the difference?

Holy ****.

[snaquille oatmeal]

Please don't look at Kobe's FG%. You might be disappointed.

Nah it was fun watching a team that had no business making the playoffs make the playoffs. But seriously why are you and others here I might add derailing the argument that I made that Steph has not been the focus of defenses the way Kobe was when he had only scrubs for teammates therefore Steph has not proven that he can take a team of scrubs by himself to the playoffs.

Im assuming we are discussing 2005-06? The lakers were a 7th seed while having the 6th best record.
It was a good accomplishment but looking at other teams that also made the playoffs, I don't think its surprising.

The 2005-06 Kings (8th seed) best player was Mike Bibby. Peja was injured and played 30 games. Second best player who played meaningful minutes was Brad Miller. And they had 40 games of Ron Artest. That team won 44 games. I fully expect a prime Kobe + Lamar to outperform that team, which they did.

2005-06 Clippers (6th seed) had Elton Brand at his best. 32 games of Corey Maggette. And a 36 year old Sam Cassell. They won 2 more games then the Lakers.

All in all, the Lakers weren't great that year but relative to the middle/bottom seeds of the western conference, they fit in and wasn't significantly worse. The lakers won 45 games that year. Without Kobe, I would say they would be near the bottom at 20 wins or less.
That's about what i would expect a superstar's impact to be. I don't think its an overachievement.

Not saying is an overachievement just saying Steph hasn’t Played with a team of that bad quality therefore going up against that type of Kobe oriented defenses

[LarryJoeDuncan]

If you switch Kobe and Curry on the team that lost to the raptors, do they still lose? I think not.