Chuma Okeke drafted #16 by the Orlando Magic

[drsd]

Kind of figured the Magic would redshirt him for the season when they drafted him. There's no way they were going to throw a rookie coming off an ACL tear into the heat of mid-season professional basketball where a team is competing for a playoff spot.

It really seems like the Magic made a deal with Okeke and his agent to draft him a lot higher than most mocks were projecting him for the trade of delaying his guaranteed money. I still believe they got cute with the draft pick. I generally fall in line with it's usually better to draft the best player available. But, I question whether he was the BPA. And he doesn't fulfill a need, especially after signing Aminu. Even when he's finally healthy, I'm not sure how or if he even fits in.

For me, Alexander-Walker was at the time and is still now BPA at #16. But what I have always been frustrated at is that Alexander-Walker (SG) was actually a better team fit than Okeke (combo-F).


..

[Knightro]

What if Okeke does not heal? Where is his financial guarantee instead of simply signing the current tender?

I know handshake deals that circumvent the salary cap and CBA are not allowed, but I would imagine the Magic have given Okeke and his agent their word that in exchange for him delaying his contract a year, that they will be offering him the full 120% scale in 2020.

Obviously the Magic aren't legally obligated to offer Okeke 120% rookie scale in 2020, but this is surely a situation where both parties are working in good faith with the other.

[ezzzp]

It was really in both parties' interest to come to favorable terms right from the start. For Okeke to be on board, the "required tender" would be a full 120% of "applicable" rookie scale salary. For the Magic, Okeke would agree in writing to postpone signing the "required tender" until after June 30, 2020.

The way this all makes sense is if the contract that says there is no contract has a guarantee for 120% for next year.

What if Okeke does not heal? Where is his financial guarantee instead of simply signing the current tender?

Its a very weird situation. I find it odd for a player rehabbing an ACL to gamble it all with no legal safety net. He and his agent (CAA) would have to be very confident that WeHam will keep their end of the deal.

There is a possibility that the FO/Okeke's agent figured out a way around it.

According to the CBA's definition of a "required tender" (Article 1.1), the "required tender" has to include language that gives the player until at least the first day of the next season (2019-2020) to accept. I didn't see anything in that Article that stipulates a back end to the "sign-by" date, nor a stipulation of what contract date range the "required tender" has to offer.

So, its possible that the Magic's "required tender" included a "sign-by" date that gives Okeke the safety net to not sign the "required tender" right now, knowing he could sign it anytime from now to next summer to guarantee the contract...or that the "required tender" (signed contract) actual dates aren't the 19-20 season but instead the 20-21 season.

But given the frequent off-the-books negotiations that seem to be routine in the NBA, its also just as likely that its just an illegal handshake deal.

[Knightro]

But given the frequent off-the-books negotiations that seem to be routine in the NBA, its also just as likely that its just an illegal handshake deal.

Almost 100% certain it's this.

[drsd]

Obviously the Magic aren't legally obligated to offer Okeke 120% rookie scale in 2020, but this is surely a situation where both parties are working in good faith with the other.

Chuma Okeke and his extended family are not wealthy. Good-faith is not enough when high 7-figures / low-8 figures are being discussed.


Look: I would happily accept 6M deal total; to never play basketball in the NBA over a "good faith" 10M deal. Maybe that's just me.

My point: there is underlying legal protection and thus this is a bigger story that need reporting on. Not Tweets.


..

[drsd]

But given the frequent off-the-books negotiations that seem to be routine in the NBA, its also just as likely that its just an illegal handshake deal.

Almost 100% certain it's this.

"off-the-books negotiations"

Really? This is what you are certain of ????


..

[Knightro]

"off-the-books negotiations"

Really? This is what you are certain of ????

Yes. Absolutely.

I think the Magic have assured Okeke's people in private that they will sign him to a full 120% rookie scale contract in the summer of 2020 no matter how his ACL rehab goes or if he gets injured again.

Okeke's taking a risk that the Magic will keep their word as much as the Magic are taking a risk that Okeke will not sign his 2019-2020 1st round rookie tender and be on the roster this season.

[drsd]

.... Okeke's people in private ... .

With millions on the table, all "in private" will have a lot of ink signatures dried on hard paper.



..

[Knightro]

.... Okeke's people in private ... .

With millions on the table, all "in private" will have a lot of ink signatures dried on hard paper.

No disrespect, but regardless of what you think of the Magic's front office, it's absolutely foolish to think ANYONE from Orlando would put pen to paper on an illegal agreement considering the penalty that's been established for circumventing the salary cap and collective bargaining agreement is forfeiture of five first round draft picks.

It's an unwritten agreement.

[ezzzp]

there is underlying legal protection

This is what I think too. There might be a legal loophole somewhere. I think it might be in the CBA's definition of "required tender," as there appears to be missing specificity of a back end to the "sign-by" date and what dates the contract has to begin/end.

I'm also not buying the theory about Chuma's people approaching the Magic about a draft/stash before the draft.

At the draft, Orlando did not have luxury tax issues. They weren't even remotely close to that situation as they had no idea if Vucevic or Ross were even going to re-sign, not to mention the Aminu signing doesn't likely happen without them.

The Magic had until July 15th to present Okeke the "required tender" to secure his rights. That's two weeks after they had already signed Vucevic and Ross, so they had plenty of time to come up with a solution once they did face luxury tax issues.

[ezzzp]

.... Okeke's people in private ... .

With millions on the table, all "in private" will have a lot of ink signatures dried on hard paper.

No disrespect, but regardless of what you think of the Magic's front office, it's absolutely foolish to think ANYONE from Orlando would put pen to paper on an illegal agreement considering the penalty that's been established for circumventing the salary cap and collective bargaining agreement is forfeiture of five first round draft picks.

It's an unwritten agreement.

There might be a legal loophole somewhere.

Maybe that's the reason that it took so long for the Magic to announce this. They could have been waiting on the NBA for a ruling. It might have actually been something discussed at the recent NBA governors meeting discussing tampering. It might actually be a loophole they voted to allow to avoid the "spirit of" language - with a long view in preparation for the conflict with NCAA...

[Knightro]

there is underlying legal protection

This is what I think too. There might be a legal loophole somewhere. I think it might be in the CBA's definition of "required tender," as there appears to be missing specificity of a back end to the "sign-by" date and what dates the contract has to begin/end.

I'm also not buying the theory about Chuma's people approaching the Magic about a draft/stash before the draft.

At the draft, Orlando did not have luxury tax issues. They weren't even remotely close to that situation as they had no idea if Vucevic or Ross were even going to re-sign, not to mention the Aminu signing doesn't likely happen without them.

The Magic had until July 15th to present Okeke the "required tender" to secure his rights. That's two weeks after they had already signed Vucevic and Ross, so they had plenty of time to come up with a solution once they did face luxury tax issues.

Come on now.

You don't actually think the Magic negotiated brand new contracts with Vucevic, Ross OR Aminu in a matters of a few minutes do you?

Teams were "legally" allowed to start negotiating with players at 6PM ET on June 30.

Vucevic's deal was announced by Stein at 6:00PM.
Ross' deal was announced by Woj at 6:10 PM.
Aminu's deal was announced by Woj at 6:19 PM.

Considering how quickly they announced all three agreements, it certainly stands to reason that the Magic knew pretty well that they were going to be signing these guys *well* in advance.

Almost assuredly they knew at least about Vucevic and Ross before the NBA draft and probably Aminu too considering his season ended on May 20th.

[ezzzp]

there is underlying legal protection

This is what I think too. There might be a legal loophole somewhere. I think it might be in the CBA's definition of "required tender," as there appears to be missing specificity of a back end to the "sign-by" date and what dates the contract has to begin/end.

I'm also not buying the theory about Chuma's people approaching the Magic about a draft/stash before the draft.

At the draft, Orlando did not have luxury tax issues. They weren't even remotely close to that situation as they had no idea if Vucevic or Ross were even going to re-sign, not to mention the Aminu signing doesn't likely happen without them.

The Magic had until July 15th to present Okeke the "required tender" to secure his rights. That's two weeks after they had already signed Vucevic and Ross, so they had plenty of time to come up with a solution once they did face luxury tax issues.

Come on now.

You don't actually think the Magic negotiated brand new contracts with Vucevic, Ross OR Aminu in a matters of a few minutes do you?

Teams were "legally" allowed to start negotiating with players at 6PM ET on June 30.

Vucevic's deal was announced by Stein at 6:00PM.
Ross' deal was announced by Woj at 6:10 PM.
Aminu's deal was announced by Woj at 6:19 PM.

Considering how quickly they announced all three agreements, it certainly stands to reason that the Magic knew pretty well that they were going to be signing these guys *well* in advance.

Almost assuredly they knew at least about Vucevic and Ross before the NBA draft and probably Aminu too considering his season ended on May 20th.

You are completely misreading or missing my point.

By pointing out that the Magic knew their luxury tax space earlier, you are literally adding more time and thus proving my point even more.

The more time the Magic had between signing free agents, and having to present Okeke his "required tender," the more time they had to find a loophole to avoid the luxury tax.

Also to assume the Magic knew for certain at the draft that Vucevic and Ross were resigning a month before free agency began is foolish. Even if tampering was occurring, there would be no certainty from either party perspective.

[VFX]

there is underlying legal protection

This is what I think too. There might be a legal loophole somewhere. I think it might be in the CBA's definition of "required tender," as there appears to be missing specificity of a back end to the "sign-by" date and what dates the contract has to begin/end.

I'm also not buying the theory about Chuma's people approaching the Magic about a draft/stash before the draft.

At the draft, Orlando did not have luxury tax issues. They weren't even remotely close to that situation as they had no idea if Vucevic or Ross were even going to re-sign, not to mention the Aminu signing doesn't likely happen without them.

The Magic had until July 15th to present Okeke the "required tender" to secure his rights. That's two weeks after they had already signed Vucevic and Ross, so they had plenty of time to come up with a solution once they did face luxury tax issues.

Come on now.

You don't actually think the Magic negotiated brand new contracts with Vucevic, Ross OR Aminu in a matters of a few minutes do you?

Teams were "legally" allowed to start negotiating with players at 6PM ET on June 30.

Vucevic's deal was announced by Stein at 6:00PM.
Ross' deal was announced by Woj at 6:10 PM.
Aminu's deal was announced by Woj at 6:19 PM.

Considering how quickly they announced all three agreements, it certainly stands to reason that the Magic knew pretty well that they were going to be signing these guys *well* in advance.

Almost assuredly they knew at least about Vucevic and Ross before the NBA draft and probably Aminu too considering his season ended on May 20th.

They were going to keep Vuc regardless of his atrocious playoff performance. They even paid him more than most thought they would or should have. Ross was likely not going anywhere due to the fact Orlando relies way too heavily on his output offensively.

Aminu is the wildcard here. They most likely were entirely sold on Aminu regardless of Vuc/Ross extensions. He’s replacing Jarrell Martin (a player that barely played) in exchange for starters/ heavy rotation minutes. To me, that just means a trade is on the horizon. If not, it’s a glut of F’s that are all capable defensively but are all currently lacking (but growing) offensively.

Then again, Aminu and Chuma’s skill sets aren’t necessarily addressing anything Orlando “lacked” last season anyway. Orlando had a great defense closing out the season, and was missing playmaking in the back court entirely. Did Orlando have to sign Aminu to bolster more defense and go into the lux tax? Probably not. However, if they redshirt Chuma to give Jeffries a shot, it isn’t the worst thing to happen for our lacking offense. Chuma isn’t getting a ton of playing time anyway with Isaac, AG, Aminu, etc. taking the lions share of minutes.

[ezzzp]

They were going to keep Vuc regardless of his atrocious playoff performance. They even paid him more than most thought they would or should have. Ross was likely not going anywhere due to the fact Orlando relies way too heavily on his output offensively.

Aminu is the wildcard here. They most likely were entirely sold on Aminu regardless of Vuc/Ross extensions. He’s replacing Jarrell Martin (a player that barely played) in exchange for starters/ heavy rotation minutes. To me, that just means a trade is on the horizon. If not, it’s a glut of F’s that are all capable defensively but are all currently lacking (but growing) offensively.

Then again, Aminu and Chuma’s skill sets aren’t necessarily addressing anything Orlando “lacked” last season anyway. Orlando had a great defense closing out the season, and was missing playmaking in the back court entirely. Did Orlando have to sign Aminu to bolster more defense and go into the lux tax? Probably not. However, if they redshirt Chuma to give Jeffries a shot, it isn’t the worst thing to happen for our lacking offense. Chuma isn’t getting a ton of playing time anyway with Isaac, AG, Aminu, etc. taking the lions share of minutes.

The FO had a desire to retain their all-star and the player that was the primary reason the Magic were even in the playoffs. BUT retaining Vucevic was absolutely not a gimme...in fact every day leading up to free agency there rumors and pages of discussion about how Dallas, Boston, Sacramento, both LA teams etc were going to make him an offer that the Magic would not beat. His contract also definitely did not end up higher than what "most" thought it was going to be...in fact a key part of the anti-Vuc argument was that it was going to take a near max to keep him.

Ross was even less a gimme, as he had stated in his exit interview that he was going to wait to see what Vucevic did + there was going to be a high demand for him.

Without Vucevic and Ross, that team would have had a one way ticket to the lottery...its doubtful that Aminu would join that for the MLE...and even less likely that the FO pursues a veteran role playing forward after they just lost their top two options.

[VFX]

They were going to keep Vuc regardless of his atrocious playoff performance. They even paid him more than most thought they would or should have. Ross was likely not going anywhere due to the fact Orlando relies way too heavily on his output offensively.

Aminu is the wildcard here. They most likely were entirely sold on Aminu regardless of Vuc/Ross extensions. He’s replacing Jarrell Martin (a player that barely played) in exchange for starters/ heavy rotation minutes. To me, that just means a trade is on the horizon. If not, it’s a glut of F’s that are all capable defensively but are all currently lacking (but growing) offensively.

Then again, Aminu and Chuma’s skill sets aren’t necessarily addressing anything Orlando “lacked” last season anyway. Orlando had a great defense closing out the season, and was missing playmaking in the back court entirely. Did Orlando have to sign Aminu to bolster more defense and go into the lux tax? Probably not. However, if they redshirt Chuma to give Jeffries a shot, it isn’t the worst thing to happen for our lacking offense. Chuma isn’t getting a ton of playing time anyway with Isaac, AG, Aminu, etc. taking the lions share of minutes.

The FO had a desire to retain their all-star and the player that was the primary reason the Magic were even in the playoffs. BUT retaining Vucevic was absolutely not a gimme...in fact every day leading up to free agency there rumors and pages of discussion about how Dallas, Boston, Sacramento, both LA teams etc were going to make him an offer that the Magic would not beat. His contract also definitely did not end up higher than what "most" thought it was going to be...in fact a key part of the anti-Vuc argument was that it was going to take a near max to keep him.

Ross was even less a gimme, as he had stated in his exit interview that he was going to wait to see what Vucevic did + there was going to be a high demand for him.

Without Vucevic and Ross, that team would have had a one way ticket to the lottery...its doubtful that Aminu would join that for the MLE...and even less likely that the FO pursues a veteran role playing forward after they just lost their top two options.

Nobody doubts that losing Ross and Vuc would have been a setback without actually acquiring players capable of replacing their production.

Also, yeah Vuc wanted to be in Orlando and they offered what he wanted. Why wouldn’t he want to be here? He’s got the best situation for his skill set and limitations in Orlando. At 28m he’s making more than every Center next year except Kevin Love at about 29m per. Seems like a pretty priced out market for a C that completely disappeared in the playoffs. Then again, the FO completely boxed themselves into a corner for relying on Vuc that much in the first place due to their lack of acquiring other options.

I digress.. none of that was the point of the original post. Losing Vuc or Ross doesn’t effect the FO targeting Aminu whatsoever. Even if they did, they would have used their money to target other players to replace them. Furthermore, why would Aminu even be a huge priority over finding real back court options or reliable bench production offensively? It’s either a move preceding a trade, or they knew they wanted him all along regardless of the obvious roster needs. They selected Chuma way higher than anyone even projected and they probably knew they would swing some kind of deal like this.

Since this is a Chuma thread I’ll add to this saying that F defense (and depth) wasn’t such a glaring issue last season, that it required landing a starting caliber one in free agency and drafting one that won’t see the court for an entire season.

[ezzzp]

Nobody doubts that losing Ross and Vuc would have been a setback without actually acquiring players capable of replacing their production.

Actually leading up to free agency you regularly insisted that...even after I showed you numerous times how the Magic wouldn't have cap space to replace that production.

Also, yeah Vuc wanted to be in Orlando and they offered what he wanted. Why wouldn’t he want to be here? He’s got the best situation for his skill set and limitations in Orlando.

His skill set is absolutely NOT limited. He has a very diverse skill set, capable if scoring from everywhere on the court, an excellent passer, a very good rebounder and was very good defensively last season. Why wouldn't the Magic want him?

...and they didn't give him what he wanted or he would have a max contract.

At 28m he’s making more than every Center except Kevin Love at about 29m per.

His contract is descending $28m/$26m/$24m/$22m....so that amount is the highest season. His average annual salary is $25m....for example: Towns $31.7m avg annual salary...Love $30m avg....Embiid $29.5m avg...Jokic $29.5m...etc...

Seems like a pretty priced out market for a C that completely disappeared in the playoffs.

Gasol and the insane Raptors championship defense shut down everyone including Embiid.

Then again, the FO completely boxed themselves into a corner for relying on Vuc that much in the first place due to their lack of acquiring other options.

With what cap space? they had none...its not fantasy...and trades requires the other team to agree, they just aren't just going to hand over their stars without the Magic giving up major assets.

I digress.. none of that was the point of the original post. Losing Vuc or Ross doesn’t effect the FO targeting Aminu whatsoever. Even if they did, they would have used their money to target other players to replace them. Furthermore, why would Aminu even be a huge priority over finding real back court options or reliable bench production offensively? It’s either a move preceding a trade, or they knew they wanted him all along regardless of the obvious roster needs.

Yes it does...no way the Magic spends the MLE on a vet forward when they just lost their two most important offensive players. They would be scrambling to fill two massive holes in the offense without the capspace to do so. Not that any decent player - including Aminu - would have joined that sinking ship. Furthermore, that he is a defensive role player that wouldn't fill that context needs is exactly why I said Aminu would not be their target.

Since this is a Chuma thread I’ll add to this saying that F defense (and depth) wasn’t such a glaring issue last season, that it required landing a starting caliber one in free agency and drafting one that won’t see the court for an entire season.

Drafting for need is the worst drafting strategy there is. You take the best player available, a lot of very draft savvy people thought the Magic did just that.

[VFX]

words

I should know better than to reply to you without expecting a parsed out lengthy reply in return, debating endlessly about something that wasn’t the point in the first place.

The FO had Aminu on their list regardless of it making sense resigning Vuc or Ross. They never acquired or were even connected to solving other lacking areas in the roster. They wouldn’t just throw a 3/30m$ deal at a player, coming from a significantly more stable team, without having the idea to do it in the first place.

The FO knew they were going to be pushing for the playoffs again (treadmill move IMO barring unforeseen development) and they took the bet. Last years primary rotation was Ross in for Isaac or AG and they switched back in the next rotation. It’s highly doubtful that’s going to change this season and Aminu’s playing time will be based on Ross covering more for Fournier than for the F spot. Again, the defense was great last year toward the end of the season and adding Aminu wasn’t the missing ingredient. Even casual fans would know that.

And no, drafting Chuma wasn’t BPA AND filling a need in lacking playmaking for a “playoff team”. NAW was both moreso than Chuma was in both cases. Anyone that isn’t praising and being a spokesman to the FO’s every move can see that.

[ezzzp]

I should know better than to reply to you without expecting a parsed out lengthy reply in return, debating endlessly about something that wasn’t the point in the first place.

You should know that your poorly informed hot takes will get called out. AND it was you who brought up that off-topic nonsense in your initial THREE paragraph comment. Scroll up and read your own comment.

The FO had Aminu on their list regardless of it making sense resigning Vuc or Ross.

Now you are even contradicting yourself about Aminu...these are your words: "Why would Aminu even be a huge priority over finding real back court options or reliable bench production offensively?"

The FO liked Aminu, as most FO's in the NBA do...he's a quality player. That doesn't mean that they'd pursue him if the team was heading straight to the lottery if Vucevic and Ross had not re-signed. You literally stated the reason why when you were trying to spin it the opposite direction.

They never acquired or were even connected to solving other lacking areas in the roster.

You need cap space for that, cap space they didn't have AND for a trade you need to trade an asset to get something back and another team to want your asset offer. AND you have zero knowledge of what conversations they had with other GM's, nobody does.

They wouldn’t just throw a 3/30m$ deal at a player, coming from a significantly more stable team, without having the idea to do it in the first place.

Every NBA FO has a dept whose role is to exclusively scout and game out NBA transactions for their team's context. Every team has a list of NBA players they like and an array of strategies for those players for the various scenarios that might play out within their roster/cap context. A player like Aminu is more than likely on every single NBA team's list. That doesn't mean they automatically pursue that player, not until the right context for that pursuit presents itself.

For the Magic, I don't doubt they liked Aminu, every team does. They went after him when it made sense. Without Vucevic and Ross, it wouldn't make sense.

The FO knew they were going to be pushing for the playoffs again (treadmill move IMO barring unforeseen development) and they took the bet.

No they didn't. The FO were going to try to resign Vucevic and Ross but that wasn't guaranteed. If they had not re-signed them, they had no capspace to replace their two top options. So no, they did not know if they were going to be in a position to push for the playoffs.

And yes we all know you prefer the tanking bottom feeder treadmill strategy instead.

Last years primary rotation was Ross in for Isaac or AG and they switched back in the next rotation. It’s highly doubtful that’s going to change this season and Aminu’s playing time will be based on Ross covering more for Fournier than for the F spot. Again, the defense was great last year toward the end of the season and adding Aminu wasn’t the missing ingredient. Even casual fans would know that.

Actually, even casual fans would know that its Iwundu's minutes that are in jeopardy. He played 67 games / 18mpg and was part of Clifford's 9 man rotation all year. As informed fans know, the top 9 rotation's minutes and lineups are based on nightly matchups and what is needed that specific night. How much Ross and Aminu each play at SF will be dictated by what the schedule and each game flow presents.

1 DJ / 2 MCW or Fultz
3 Fournier / 4 Ross
5 Gordon / Aminu and Ross
7 Isaac / 6 Aminu
8 Vucevic / 9 Bamba or Birch

And no, drafting Chuma wasn’t BPA AND filling a need in lacking playmaking for a “playoff team”. NAW was both moreso than Chuma was in both cases. Anyone that isn’t praising and being a spokesman to the FO’s every move can see that.

Anyone who actually follows the game enough knows that the FO picked who they thought the BPA was. The top draft analysts agree with their pick. The advanced metrics say they did. Its only the fans who are salty because the FO didn't pick who they wanted that are blinded by their bias:





FiveThirtyEight's Carmelo model projects Okeke to be better than NAW:



Kevin Pelton's (ESPN) projection model ranked Okeke as 8th best prospect in this draft...Jonathon Givony of ESPN/Draft Express said Okeke would be a top 10 pick if he had not gotten hurt. Mike Schmitz gushed about Okeke, saying that the Magic got the steal of the draft and that he would have gone much higher were it not for his injury. Etc etc etc...

The FO took the BPA with the highest upside, EXACTLY what they should have done.

[drsd]

And no, drafting Chuma wasn’t BPA AND filling a need in lacking playmaking for a “playoff team”. NAW was both moreso than Chuma was in both cases. Anyone that isn’t praising and being a spokesman to the FO’s every move can see that.

If one accepts that the Magic office also had similar views, that means part of the BPA conversation was fully about NOT signing their draft selection. So instead of trading out of #16, Orlando got creative.

I can see why this happened. But as I see Alexander-Walker as potentially having a marginal-starters career, Okeke better become something special we have not imagined in him.