clyde21 wrote:ccameron wrote:clyde21 wrote:
on ball defense for guards is so overrated in these discussions...the offensive gap between them is wider than defense...there's a reason Stephs impact metrics are infinitely better despite Kobe being a "way better defender"
Generally, if your favorite player isn't great at skill X, there's a good chance you don't really think skill X is that important. On ball defense for a guard is definitely important. And arguably it was even more important in Kobe's era than it is now with more restrictions now than ever, so you need to look at it from that angle.
But even now, this is a league where almost all the stars are perimeter players. Perimiter defense is the first line of defense. It determines their first step. If the opposing team has a star perimiter player (which is guaranteed right now, every team that is a threat right now has a star perimeter player), having someone who can harrass them is definitely valuable. Kobe could do that.
Lots of guys might have a higher peak than Kobe, and I include Steph in that category, but IMO it's going to be hard for Steph to catch Kobe, 1) because of longevity, and 2) It's really hard to argue against his results.
I think Kobe is overrated by the casual fan, and underrated by people who are obsessed with advanced metrics.
has nothing to do with Steph, this has always been my position regarding perimeter on ball defense...obviously it's important in its own capacity, but on a per position basis it's not nearly as valuable as many other aspects, especially when 're talking about all-time level offenses etc...it's not as simple as hey 'they're both good on offense but Kobe is better on defense so Kobe > Steph'. if that was the case we'd see it reflected in the advanced metrics...and it's not and has never been (take a look at Klay for example)
again, Steph has a better career, TS%, better PER, better WS/48, better BPM, better On/Off and it's not really that close...Kobe's best BPM season would rank as Steph's 7th best, Kobe's best TS% season would rank as Steph's 9th, Kobe's best WS/48 would rank as Steph's 4th...and Steph isn't even out of his prime yet.
to give the advantage to Kobe here because of 'defense' here just doesn't add up, no way does individual perimeter defense hold that much water in this discussion given the discrepancy in other more important categories
I can acknowledge all that, but there is more than just the stats. And his argument over Steph is not only defense. Kobe has some better box score stats, Steph generally has better advanced stats, and I'm not going to argue that, but something worth bringing up is Steve's Kerr's response to Durant's recent comments:
"I wasn't at all offended what Kevin said because it's basically the truth," Kerr told The Athletic's Anthony Slater. "You look at any system, I mean, I played the triangle with Michael Jordan. The offense ran a lot smoother all regular season and the first couple rounds of the playoffs than it did in the conference finals and Finals. It just did.
"That's why guys like Michael Jordan and Kevin Durant and Kobe Bryant are who they are. They can transcend any defense. But defenses in the playoffs, deep in the playoffs, combined with the physicality of the game -- where refs can't possibly call a foul every time -- means that superstars have to take over. No system is just going to dice a Finals defense up. You have to rely on individual play. I didn't look at (his comment) as offensive. I look at that as fact."
Notice he brought up Kobe. Yeah, he was not as efficient as Steph. He probably couldn't run the system Steph is running and lead as efficient an offense as Steph. But he doesn't have to run that system. I've said this many times, whether it's in the conference finals or the finals, you are going to face the best of the best, and unless somehow the other team is completely overmatched (as rarely happens in the finals), your plan A, B, and C are going to fail. At the end of the day, you need somene to take over when all your plans go out the window (and they will, bank on it), and Kobe is one of those guys. I'm not sure Steph is. There are maybe advantages and disadvantages to being that kind of player, maybe. But that's why it's not so simple as you saying Steph's advanced stats are better so case closed.
Kerr lumps Kobe and Durant in there with Jordan as someone who can transcend any defense. Not sure if the omission of Steph was intentional, but considering the context it's worth noting. I suspect when he is talking about refs not calling fouls on every play it might have been a dig at Harden's playoff performances.
