#26 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

freethedevil · Post #21 » by **freethedevil** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:31 am

liamliam1234 wrote:About as valuable as FTD saying Kawhi and Giannis were respectively +16 and +13 in their series meaning they had the exact same impact.

Just so we're clear, I'm of the opinion that giannis was more impactful that series. That was to demonstrate that even if we were to assume giannis and kawhi had equally good supporting casts, their teams were roughly as good as each other when both were on the court. Even closer than their teams were overall. Divide 3 by 6. Off course their teams weren't as close and it's rather odd for you to mention garnett and then ignore kawhi's superior supporting cast was played to a near draw by giannis's inferior one in the 6 game stretch which you've disregarded the rest of the season in favor of. :crazy:

Raps with Kawhi ~ Bucks with Giannis despite

Giannis's teammates<<Kawhi's team.

And now we add that

Kawhi played better than he would have with giannis team because he got to coast in the rs and what we really get is

Raps with Amped Kawhi~Bucks with Giannis

DESPITE

Kawhi's teammates>>Giannis's

But hey, "KAWHI BEST SCORING PO FOR A TITLE TEAM" is a nice way to ignore that I guess. All that noise about overcoming difficulty for and now you're picking the player who just had to score over the one who was his team's primary scorer, ran his team's offense, and anchored his team's defense. :roll:

How about you make a coherent point first rather than belly-itching over whether a guy who "raised the floor" straight to a championship was actually not helping his team's offence enough.

I don't know why you keep saying "won a title" as if it proves something. Why wouldn't Harden or Jokic have won with a +9 defense? Why wouldn't Giannis have? Why wouldn't any of the players you're pikcing kawhi over have done that?

The raps were marginally better than the Bucks. Both teams got to that level with +9 defenses and mediocre offences. One player here was a defensive anchor. The other player wasn't. Why are you giving kawhi "won a title" when a +9 defense is better than a +1 offense? How does it matter than kawhi "lifted them to a title" when it was the raptor's defense that did most of the work? It takes far more to make a team secound round worthy than to make a team title worthy. If I take out lowry the raptors don't win a title, should we now vote lowry becuase he "lifted his team to a championship?"

If you have to bring up a championship won on defense for an offensive minded player as a talking point, you're really just trying to distract from their induvidual play.

freethedevil · Post #22 » by **freethedevil** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:34 am

E-Balla wrote:I just updated the cheat sheet I keep my individual player write ups on and might need help filling out the back end of my current top 10 (bold means write up on the way):

1. 75 McAdoo
2. 75 Barry
3. 99 Zo
4. 00 Zo
5. Kawhi
6. 08 Paul
7. 96 Penny
8. I'm leaning towards Barkley but I feel like it's only because others are voting for him.
9. Umm... Clyde Frazier?
10. I think Mikan has to be here for me. Maybe? IDK

Outside of that we got Nash, Kidd, Pettit, 81 Marques Johnson, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Isiah, 68 Hawkins??? I feel like that's the last of the borderline championship level first options IMO.

Giannis isn't a championship level first option?

Did he not just carry a contender?
:-?

Morb · Post #23 » by **Morb** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:19 am

1. Bob McAdoo 1975 - Scoring Machine, shooting 6'10, rebounds, historically great series vs DRtg 91.3 (-6.4). Wow.
2. Chris Paul 2008 - Top 3 PG Peak, assists, tempo, midrange, quickness, low tovs, great series vs DRtg 106.1 (-1.4) and good series vs DRtg 101.8 (-5.7).
3. Anthony Davis 2018 - Offense + Defense, 6'11, midrange, 34% threes, 83% FT, athletic, great series vs DRtg 106.4 (-2.2) and good series vs DRtg 107.6 (-1.0).

E-Balla · Post #24 » by **E-Balla** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:44 am

freethedevil wrote:
E-Balla wrote:I just updated the cheat sheet I keep my individual player write ups on and might need help filling out the back end of my current top 10 (bold means write up on the way):

1. 75 McAdoo
2. 75 Barry
3. 99 Zo
4. 00 Zo
5. Kawhi
6. 08 Paul
7. 96 Penny
8. I'm leaning towards Barkley but I feel like it's only because others are voting for him.
9. Umm... Clyde Frazier?
10. I think Mikan has to be here for me. Maybe? IDK

Outside of that we got Nash, Kidd, Pettit, 81 Marques Johnson, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Isiah, 68 Hawkins??? I feel like that's the last of the borderline championship level first options IMO.

Giannis isn't a championship level first option?

Did he not just carry a contender?

Giannis is borderline. He's definitely deserving of a mention with the others I named so thanks for the reminder.

Also contender and champion ain't the same. Giannis has a great supporting cast, great results, but his game leaves me iffy on him compared to some of the others. He's in my top 40 easily though.

Samurai · Post #25 » by **Samurai** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:02 am

1. George Mikan 1949. I understand the concerns about the strength of his era and thus I haven't said anything about him not being voted in yet. But to keep him out of the top 25 altogether seems to be going overboard in one direction. The dominant offensive player in the game, leading the league in scoring and 8th in assists/game. But he was also the dominant defender and rebounder as well. He clearly dominated his peers to a greater extent than anyone left on the board; dropping him to #26 due to questions about league strength seems about right to me.

2. Bob McAdoo 1975. League MVP, he was an outstanding scorer, leading the league with 34.5 ppg, he also led the league in OWS, WS and WS/48. 5th in TS% and 2nd in PER. The knock on him has always been his defense, but 75 was arguably his best defensive season as well. Finished 6th in DWS, 18th in Def Rtg, and 6th in blocks/game.

3. Charles Barkley 1993. Was unsure whether to go with 93 or 90; liked his RS in 93 more but he was better in the PS in 90. Went with 93 since I tend to give more weight to the RS due to larger sample size. Better rebounder and passer in 93. And while no one would ever confuse him with Pippen or DeBusschere on defense, his DRtg and Def Box Plus/Minus was better in 93 than 90.

liamliam1234 · Post #26 » by **liamliam1234** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:16 am

Repost:

Giannis 2019 regular season, playing 60% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 116.6 (+6.2), off-court team offensive rating of 111.5 (+1.1), net team offensive difference of +5.1. Overall net difference was +8.9.
Giannis 2019 postseason, playing 70% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 112.1 (+1.7), off-court team offensive rating of 112.3 (-1.9), net team offensive difference of -0.2. Overall net difference was +3.2.

Yeah, excuse me for being skeptical of how impactful Giannis was in the postseason. :lol:

I have also repeatedly said regular season matters exceedingly little to me compared to playoffs, so it is odd that you keep pointing to Kawhi’s disadvantage there as if it matters to me.

It it similarly perplexing that you are portraying Giannis as having exhausted himself over the course of the season... because he played sixty percent of his team’s available minutes and cruised through the first two rounds. As others have said, Giannis’s load itself would qualify as one of the lowest in the entire project.

HBK_Kliq_33 · Post #27 » by **HBK_Kliq_33** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:23 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Repost:

Giannis 2019 regular season, playing 60% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 116.6 (+6.2), off-court team offensive rating of 111.5 (+1.1), net team offensive difference of +5.1. Overall net difference was +8.9.
Giannis 2019 postseason, playing 70% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 112.1 (+1.7), off-court team offensive rating of 112.3 (-1.9), net team offensive difference of -0.2. Overall net difference was +3.2.

Yeah, excuse me for being skeptical of how impactful Giannis was in the postseason.

Giannis shot 7 threes and overall 30% FG when Kawhi was guarding him, he was scared of him. In defense to Giannis, it's not like David Robinson is a good playoff performer and he's on this list.

freethedevil · Post #28 » by **freethedevil** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:17 am

E-Balla wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
E-Balla wrote:I just updated the cheat sheet I keep my individual player write ups on and might need help filling out the back end of my current top 10 (bold means write up on the way):

1. 75 McAdoo
2. 75 Barry
3. 99 Zo
4. 00 Zo
5. Kawhi
6. 08 Paul
7. 96 Penny
8. I'm leaning towards Barkley but I feel like it's only because others are voting for him.
9. Umm... Clyde Frazier?
10. I think Mikan has to be here for me. Maybe? IDK

Outside of that we got Nash, Kidd, Pettit, 81 Marques Johnson, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Isiah, 68 Hawkins??? I feel like that's the last of the borderline championship level first options IMO.

Giannis isn't a championship level first option?

Did he not just carry a contender?

Giannis is borderline. He's definitely deserving of a mention with the others I named so thanks for the reminder.

Also contender and champion ain't the same. Giannis has a great supporting cast, great results, but his game leaves me iffy on him compared to some of the others. He's in my top 40 easily though.

His team was extremely close to winning, most of the players you listed were ringless.

Do you think his cast was abnormally strong? I do realize he has offensive limiations, but then again, I don't see anyone from your list anchoring +9 defenses, while running and being the primary scoring option on an offense.

At this stage I think doing everything for a team that nearly won a championship is more than a borderline case. :dontknow:

freethedevil · Post #29 » by **freethedevil** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:23 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Repost:

Giannis 2019 regular season, playing 60% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 116.6 (+6.2), off-court team offensive rating of 111.5 (+1.1), net team offensive difference of +5.1. Overall net difference was +8.9.
Giannis 2019 postseason, playing 70% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 112.1 (+1.7), off-court team offensive rating of 112.3 (-1.9), net team offensive difference of -0.2. Overall net difference was +3.2.

You're comparing Giannis...to giannis?

You realize giannis's plus minus playoff stats were sinigficantly higher than kawhi's? :-?

Yeah, excuse me for being skeptical of how impactful Giannis was in the postseason. :lol:

I have also repeatedly said regular season matters exceedingly little to me compared to playoffs, so it is odd that you keep pointing yo Kawhi’s disadvantage there as if it matters to me.

I'm not talking about rs play? I'm talking about kawhi having a circumstantial postseason boost giannis or any other superstar would have recieved if they played on kawhi's team. Hence kawhi's postseason #"s are inflated. It's not that kawhi was **** in the regular season. It's that being **** in the regular season to be better in the playoffs is something any superstar can achieve if they were to play on the raptors.

liamliam1234 · Post #30 » by **liamliam1234** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:51 am

Giannis played 300 more minutes in the regular season than Kawhi. If that crippled him for the playoffs, then maybe he should have played less rather than gunning for the top seed.

Also...

Kawhi 2019 postseason, playing 81% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 114.3 (+3.9), off-court team offensive rating of 95.6 (-14.8), net team offensive difference of +18.7; his overall net difference was +16.8.

Yeah, Giannis definitely wins that comparison...

freethedevil · Post #31 » by **freethedevil** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:45 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Giannis played 300 more minutes in the regular season than Kawhi. If that crippled him for the playoffs, then maybe he should have played less rather than gunning for the top seed.

He played like a mvp. Kawhi played like a fringe all star. One's team specifically saved him for the postseason, the other's didn't. Not sure how you're putting that decision on Giannis when that decision was made by his team. You can spin this however you want, the ability to play like **** during the rs to improve your po performance is something anyone can replicate and hence any sort of boost kawhi's getting from the liberty to play like **** should be adjusted for. Assuming we're interested in the abilities of the individual players rather than the abilities of their respective teams,

Kawhi 2019 postseason, playing 81% of available minutest On-court team offensive rating of 114.3 (+3.9), off-court team offensive rating of 95.6 (-14.8), net team offensive difference of +18.7; his overall net difference was +16.8.

Yeah, Giannis definitely wins that comparison...

Oh no. No, no, no. Don't tell me you're exclusively looking at offensive net difference in a comparison featuring a two way superstar. :noway:

Also, I have to question your specific choice of a stat that doesn't adjust for individual lineups. Especially considering that the ones that do favor Giannis :roll:

freethedevil · Post #32 » by **freethedevil** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:53 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
liamliam1234 wrote:Repost:

Giannis 2019 regular season, playing 60% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 116.6 (+6.2), off-court team offensive rating of 111.5 (+1.1), net team offensive difference of +5.1. Overall net difference was +8.9.
Giannis 2019 postseason, playing 70% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 112.1 (+1.7), off-court team offensive rating of 112.3 (-1.9), net team offensive difference of -0.2. Overall net difference was +3.2.

Yeah, excuse me for being skeptical of how impactful Giannis was in the postseason.

Giannis shot 7 threes and overall 30% FG when Kawhi was guarding him, he was scared of him. In defense to Giannis, it's not like David Robinson is a good playoff performer and he's on this list.

Siakim achieved similar results. Me thinks that had less to do with kawhi and more to do with the big(or often both bigs) put in the paint to save the perimiter guards from being turned into a turnstiles. Because, you know, defense 101: Interior d>>>>>>>>perimiter d in importance.

Coinicdentally kawhi returned to doing nothing of note defensively when not given two-3 help defenders on each possesion in the three other series he partook in.

liamliam1234 · Post #33 » by **liamliam1234** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:05 am

freethedevil wrote:
liamliam1234 wrote:Giannis played 300 more minutes in the regular season than Kawhi. If that crippled him for the playoffs, then maybe he should have played less rather than gunning for the top seed.

He played like a mvp. Kawhi played like a fringe all star. One's team specifically saved him for the postseason, the other's didn't. Not sure how you're putting that decision on Giannis when that decision was made by his team. You can spin this however you want, the ability to play like **** during the rs to improve your po performance is something anyone can replicate and hence any sort of boost kawhi's getting from the liberty to play like **** should be adjusted for. Assuming we're interested in the abilities of the individual players rather than the abilities of their respective teams,

If you sincerely believe that three hundred minutes prevented Giannis from achieving his full postseason potential, that is your prerogative. :lol:

Kawhi 2019 postseason, playing 81% of available minutest On-court team offensive rating of 114.3 (+3.9), off-court team offensive rating of 95.6 (-14.8), net team offensive difference of +18.7; his overall net difference was +16.8.

Yeah, Giannis definitely wins that comparison...

Oh no. No, no, no. Don't tell me you're exclusively looking at offensive net difference in a comparison featuring a two way superstar.

I did not. But since you apparently glazed over it, I bolded and underlined it for you. Kawhi had a negative defensive on/off, and Giannis has a positive one (incorporated into the overall on/off rating I gave last time); the trouble is that his positive defensive on/off does not make up for his neutral offensive on/off.

Also, I have to question your specific choice of a stat that doesn't adjust for individual lineups. Especially considering that the ones that do favor Giannis

Sadly, Kawhi was not as blessed with as deep of a postseason bench as Giannis. :wink:

But he did have the best offensive on/off and net on/off among Toronto starters/players, so I cannot say that is a worry of mine in terms of his impact.

cecilthesheep · Post #34 » by **cecilthesheep** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:08 pm

E-Balla wrote:I just updated the cheat sheet I keep my individual player write ups on and might need help filling out the back end of my current top 10 (bold means write up on the way):

1. 75 McAdoo
2. 75 Barry
3. 99 Zo
4. 00 Zo
5. Kawhi
6. 08 Paul
7. 96 Penny
8. I'm leaning towards Barkley but I feel like it's only because others are voting for him.
9. Umm... Clyde Frazier?
10. I think Mikan has to be here for me. Maybe? IDK

Outside of that we got Nash, Kidd, Pettit, 81 Marques Johnson, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Isiah, 68 Hawkins??? I feel like that's the last of the borderline championship level first options IMO. Maybe I'm forgetting someone obvious though if anyone sees someone missing let me know. Gervin maybe? I think I might be making a case for Reggie Miller before we get to 40 too at this rate but I'm preparing for that one since I know I'll be alone on him for a while. I at least need most of the MVP level good postseason performers off the board.

I'll probably be right there with you on Miller, actually; one of the most underrated guys ever imo

Westbrook over Nash, really? Come on, guys

Odinn21 · Post #35 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:21 pm

1. 1993 Charles Barkley
Natural scorer and rebounder and it wasn’t like he didn’t pay attention on defense in this particular season. That WCF performance was something to behold. The Sonics were 5th in ppg allowed and 2nd drtg (also, despite the W numbers, they led the league in SRS) and that 44/24 game 7 performance is one of the best ever game 7 performances. Also, despite losing in 6, the Suns didn’t get outscored by the Bulls in the NBA Finals. That was the level of Chuck elevating the team. I’m particularly big on this because there are team performances winning the series despite not outscoring the opponent but those series are usually decided in the last game. Not in this case.

2. 2008 Chris Paul
I believe CP3 is the only player who's yet to make the list with 6+ RAPM. This alone should make a case for him. I believe a player's peak happens between his 25 and 32. Not 22. But even though he had many great seasons in LAC, I feel like CP3 never topped his 2007-08 season. All-around great season. Huge averages, assist and steal titles. Insane ast/tov ratio. I'm yet to achieve a conclusive result but CP3's 2007-08 regular season is probably the best season ever in terms of ast/tov (since turnovers getting recorded surely), especially we factor in his assist volume.
And even better display in the playoffs. Dominated the Mavs with one of the best playoffs series by a PG. And then gave one hell of a fight battle against the defending champions. Despite losing in 7, the overall scoreboard of the series was a tie. He was the best player in the series against another top 5 player in that year.

We're going to have a very controversial one here;
3. 1992 Karl Malone
I think I should expect some conversation about this pick but not considering him at this point is just bizarre to me.
I'll make a comparison for you guys to showcase why I think he deserves to be included. Though it'll be based on boxscore numbers, but still. He deserves better than getting treated like he never existed on this level.
In 1992 playoffs Karl Malone produced 27.13% of his team's entire eff value. 30.48% if we adjust it for minutes over 16 games.
That 27.13% is on par with MJ's 1993 run (27.25%), Hakeem's 1995 run (27.25%), Shaq's 2001 run (26.94%) among title winning runs. Better than Kawhi's 2019 run with 25.81%.
That 30.48% is on par with Shaq's 2001 run (30.60%) and LeBron's 2013 run (30.44%). Though making an adjustment for minutes really helps Kawhi, his ratio would become 31.66%. But still not light years ahead. Also the drastic change in mpg dynamics has a role in this.

Barkley getting mentions for 1990 and 1993. Here's Chuck's number in 1993 playoffs for a comparison; 26.87% and 30.70% over 24 games. Not much different from Malone's 27.13% and 30.48%, eh?

I'm aware that I only talked about playoffs.
But 1992 Jazz had 5.70 SRS (3rd in the league), 6.6 net rating, 57-25 expected W-L record and outscored their opponents by 6.27%.
Considering 1993 Suns had 6.27 SRS (3rd in the league), 6.6 net rating, 57-25 expected W-L record and outscored their opponents by 6.24%, I don't think I can knock Malone down for lacking regular season impact/success.

Edit: The reason why I'm still not voting for Kawhi, he's yet to have a full season. I doubt that he could perform like he did in 2019 playoffs if he weren't rested for that many games and minutes. Durability is taken for granted usually, because you wouldn't have to question it. That's a knock on Kawhi's 2 best seasons.

HBK_Kliq_33 · Post #36 » by **HBK_Kliq_33** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:29 pm

freethedevil wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
liamliam1234 wrote:Repost:

Giannis 2019 regular season, playing 60% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 116.6 (+6.2), off-court team offensive rating of 111.5 (+1.1), net team offensive difference of +5.1. Overall net difference was +8.9.
Giannis 2019 postseason, playing 70% of available minutes: On-court team offensive rating of 112.1 (+1.7), off-court team offensive rating of 112.3 (-1.9), net team offensive difference of -0.2. Overall net difference was +3.2.

Yeah, excuse me for being skeptical of how impactful Giannis was in the postseason.

Giannis shot 7 threes and overall 30% FG when Kawhi was guarding him, he was scared of him. In defense to Giannis, it's not like David Robinson is a good playoff performer and he's on this list.

Siakim achieved similar results. Me thinks that had less to do with kawhi and more to do with the big(or often both bigs) put in the paint to save the perimiter guards from being turned into a turnstiles. Because, you know, defense 101: Interior d>>>>>>>>perimiter d in importance.

Coinicdentally kawhi returned to doing nothing of note defensively when not given two-3 help defenders on each possesion in the three other series he partook in.

Giannis was playing very good in the first two games but once Leonard switched on him is when the consistent struggle began.

Watch on YouTube

Freedawkins had an interesting stat in the video yesterday at 2:50 "during regular season kawhi was in the 96th percentile in defending isolation plays. Players shot 30% from the floor and scored 0.55 points per possession when attacking kawhi in an isolation play. He turns everyone he's guarding into a Willie collie stein or tristin Thompson level iso scorer" even when Kawhi was on load management during regular season, he was still a lockdown 1 on 1 defender. Playoff Kawhi? Giannis is scared **** of him!

charged_up · Post #37 » by **charged_up** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:40 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Giannis shot 7 threes and overall 30% FG when Kawhi was guarding him, he was scared of him. In defense to Giannis, it's not like David Robinson is a good playoff performer and he's on this list.

Siakim achieved similar results. Me thinks that had less to do with kawhi and more to do with the big(or often both bigs) put in the paint to save the perimiter guards from being turned into a turnstiles. Because, you know, defense 101: Interior d>>>>>>>>perimiter d in importance.

Coinicdentally kawhi returned to doing nothing of note defensively when not given two-3 help defenders on each possesion in the three other series he partook in.

Giannis was playing very good in the first two games but once Leonard switched on him is when the consistent struggle began.

Watch on YouTube

Freedawkins had an interesting stat in the video yesterday at 2:50 "during regular season kawhi was in the 96th percentile in defending isolation plays. Players shot 30% from the floor and scored 0.55 points per possession when attacking kawhi in an isolation play. He turns everyone he's guarding into a Willie collie stein or tristin Thompson level iso scorer" even when Kawhi was on load management during regular season, he was still a lockdown 1 on 1 defender. Playoff Kawhi? Giannis is scared **** of him!

Stats can be good at times to use, but sometimes you just need to use your eyes. The stats say that Kawhi's defense was great against Giannis. But I don't need stats to tell me that. Anybody with two working eyeballs can tell you what happened. Giannis had steamrolled through the entire league. Then Kawhi started guarding him in game 3 and he completely and totally shut him the F down. I watched it on TV, I was there and I'm pretty sure anybody else who was there saw the same thing.

E-Balla · Post #38 » by **E-Balla** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:13 pm

Just posting for clarity but other sites use estimated possessions. Since 2008 NBA.com has the real possessions in their stats so they have the accurate +/- numbers, not bball ref.

https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612749/onoffcourt-summary/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs

E-Balla · Post #39 » by **E-Balla** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:15 pm

cecilthesheep wrote:
E-Balla wrote:I just updated the cheat sheet I keep my individual player write ups on and might need help filling out the back end of my current top 10 (bold means write up on the way):

1. 75 McAdoo
2. 75 Barry
3. 99 Zo
4. 00 Zo
5. Kawhi
6. 08 Paul
7. 96 Penny
8. I'm leaning towards Barkley but I feel like it's only because others are voting for him.
9. Umm... Clyde Frazier?
10. I think Mikan has to be here for me. Maybe? IDK

Outside of that we got Nash, Kidd, Pettit, 81 Marques Johnson, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Isiah, 68 Hawkins??? I feel like that's the last of the borderline championship level first options IMO. Maybe I'm forgetting someone obvious though if anyone sees someone missing let me know. Gervin maybe? I think I might be making a case for Reggie Miller before we get to 40 too at this rate but I'm preparing for that one since I know I'll be alone on him for a while. I at least need most of the MVP level good postseason performers off the board.

I'll probably be right there with you on Miller, actually; one of the most underrated guys ever imo

Westbrook over Nash, really? Come on, guys

The more I think about him the more he's moving up actually. I mean are you really taking that many more than 30 people over Reggie if you want to win a Finals? Can I legitimately say I'm taking Nash and Kidd over him if I want to get a ring?

E-Balla · Post #40 » by **E-Balla** » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:32 pm

freethedevil wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Giannis isn't a championship level first option?

Did he not just carry a contender?

Giannis is borderline. He's definitely deserving of a mention with the others I named so thanks for the reminder.

Also contender and champion ain't the same. Giannis has a great supporting cast, great results, but his game leaves me iffy on him compared to some of the others. He's in my top 40 easily though.

His team was extremely close to winning, most of the players you listed were ringless.

Do you think his cast was abnormally strong?

Yeah. People around here should know I've been high on Khris Middleton for years, Bledsoe for years, Brook Lopez for years, high on never talked about 50/40/90 player Brogdon even in college, and I was ranting and raving about getting Bud as the Knicks coach.

His supporting cast is great. Better than the supporting caste most of those guys had at their peak outside of Kawhi who's team was WAY better than Milwaukee (the 16 Spurs are a top 5 team to not win a ring this millennium).

The team had a +3.1 net rating with Giannis on the bench (+5.4 in the playoffs) and had a +11.8 net rating in the regular season with Khris on the floor without Giannis in 11.7 mpg (in the playoffs they had a +7.3 net rating in 7 mpg with Middleton and without Giannis). They've shown they can function at a high level without him and I see them as similar to Bud's Hawks especially after adding Mirotic. They're a solid 50 win, 2nd round team without Giannis. They're stronger than Indy without Dipo, but maybe not Boston.

I do realize he has offensive limiations, but then again, I don't see anyone from your list anchoring +9 defenses, while running and being the primary scoring option on an offense.

At this stage I think doing everything for a team that nearly won a championship is more than a borderline case.

The Bucks were a -5 defense so yeah no one left anchored a -9 defense. Once Russell was off the board that no longer was an option, Ewing and Duncan are next best at -8. Ben Wallace and Sheed at -14 but that's only a half season.

Their defense was still top 5 level without Giannis too. Great anchor, but you're saying it like he carried them on that end.