If Tom Brady gets a 7th ring this year do you put him above Jordan as the most successful/winning player of the last 30?

[Mirotic12]

I'll say it again. Belichick and Brady are the Pop and Duncan of the NFL. Scattered championships. Top playoff seed every year. Duncan has a pretty decent resume, but nobody is calling him the GOAT, despite him being the cornerstone of some dominant teams. NBA season is a grind and anybody saying it's "easy" to win 16 playoff games is deceiving themselves.

Popovich and Duncan =

9 conference finals appearances
6 NBA Finals appearances
5 NBA championships
best regular season = 67-15

Belichick and Brady =

13 conference finals appearances
9 Super Bowl appearances
6 Super Bowl championships
best regular season = undefeated (16-0)

Belichick and Brady have very easily surpassed what Popovich and Duncan did, and they are still adding more to their run. Popovich and Duncan didn't accomplish anywhere near as much together. So no, they are not the NBA equivalent of Belichick and Brady.

Also, the Patriots didn't win "scattered championships". Yes, the Spurs did, but the Patriots didn't.

The Spurs won NBA championships in 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2014.......so yes, that is scattered, and why the Spurs more meet the sports definition of Juggernaut, rather than dynasty (juggernaut is higher than dynasty anyway).

The Patriots won NFL championships in 2001 (2002 SB), 2003 (2004 SB), 2004 (2005 SB), 2014 (2015 SB), 2016 (2017 SB), 2018 (2019 SB)................winning 3 Super Bowls in 4 years, including a back to back, followed by winning 3 Super Bowls in 5 years, including 4 Super Bowl appearances in 5 years, with 3 straight Super Bowl appearances and winning 2 out of 3.

That's not scattered, that's both a juggernaut (a long term greatness), and a dynasty (a shorter term dominance). The Spurs run under Popovich and Duncan, as great as it was, just simply is not comparable.

[Raps in 4]

He was literally caught cheating in two of those seasons.

[Mirotic12]

And the narrative from some here, that all quarterbacks are protected now and don't get hit, and all have it easy, and all the good ones will play well into their 40s..........has already been thoroughly debunked this season.


Andrew Luck, at age 30, had to retire, due to all the damage he had taken from hits and injuries...

Eli Manning deteriorated to where he got benched at age 38.......

Ben Roethlisberger, at age 37, is out for the season with an injury....

Drew Brees, at age 40, already got injured and needed surgery....

Cam Newton, at age 30, is already injured....

Nick Foles, at age 30, is already injured...

Philip Rivers, at age 37, is so far 13th in QBR.

Aaron Rodgers, at age 35, is so far 17th in QBR.

[Ito]

2 three peats is impressive but how is Jordan the most successful ball player winning wise he didn’t do much in the 80s just score a bunch of points.. I think LeBron has had a better career overall but Jordan is jordan he’s a bigger brand.. In the NFL is harder to win its difficult to compare but Brady might get the edge if he wins a couple more specially now that he’s older

[Mirotic12]

Bill Belichick's career as a head coach in the NFL, with different starting quarterbacks other than Tom Brady.


These are the 12 starting QBs that Bill Belichick has had so far in his NFL head coaching career, other than Tom Brady:


1. Bernie Kosar = (11-18 regular season)

2. Todd Philcox = (2-3 regular season)

3. Mike Tomczak = (4-4 regular season)

4. Vinny Testaverde = (16-15 regular season) and (1-1 playoffs) (17-16 overall)

5. Mark Rypien = (2-1 regular season)

6. Eric Zeier = (1-3 regular season)

7. Drew Bledsoe = (5-13 regular season)

8. Matt Cassel = (10-5 regular season)

9. Jimmy Garoppolo = (2-0 regular season)

10. Jacoby Brissett = (1-1 regular season)

11. Cam Newton = (6-8 regular season)

12. Brian Hoyer = (0-1 regular season)


= 12 different starting QBs in total = a record of 60-72 (regular season) and (1-1 in the playoffs) = 61-73 record overall


Cleveland Browns

1991: 6-10 regular season
1992: 7-9 regular season
1993: 7-9 regular season
1994: 11-5 regular season (1-1 playoffs - 12-6 overall) (lost 29-9 in AFC Divisional Round)
1995: 5-11 regular season

= 36-44 (regular season) 1-1 (playoffs) 37-45 (overall)


New England Patriots

2000: 5-11 regular season (Drew Bledsoe)
2001: 0-2 regular season (Drew Bledsoe)
2008: 10-5 regular season (Matt Cassel)
2016: 3-1 regular season (Jimmy Garoppolo / Jacoby Brissett)
2020: 6-9 so far regular season (Cam Newton / Brian Hoyer)

= 24-28 so far (regular season)


= overall (Browns and Patriots) 60-72 (regular season) and (1-1 in the playoffs) = 61-73 record overall


In the 8 seasons that Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as his starting QB, he has had just 2 winning seasons, 11-5 in 1994 (Browns), with Vinny Testaverde / Mark Rypien, and 11-5 in 2008 (Patriots), with Matt Cassel (Brady started the first game that season).

6 out of the 8 seasons in which Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as his starting QB, were seasons in which he had a losing record.

In the 8 seasons that Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as his starting QB, he has made the playoffs just 1 time. In 1994, with an 11-5 record (Browns). In that one season that he made the playoffs, he went 1-1 in the playoffs, and lost 29-9 in the AFC divisional round against the Steelers.

In the 3 seasons that Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as the starter of the Patriots, he has 2 losing seasons, and failed to make the playoffs all 3 times.

With the New England Patriots, Bill Belichick's head coaching record without Tom Brady as his starting QB is 24-28.

[Lalouie]

brady is the football version of of bill russell.

so yeah

[Lalouie]

Bill Belichick's career as a head coach in the NFL, with different starting quarterbacks other than Tom Brady.


These are the 12 starting QBs that Bill Belichick has had so far in his NFL head coaching career, other than Tom Brady:


1. Bernie Kosar = (11-18 regular season)

2. Todd Philcox = (2-3 regular season)

3. Mike Tomczak = (4-4 regular season)

4. Vinny Testaverde = (16-15 regular season) and (1-1 playoffs) (17-16 overall)

5. Mark Rypien = (2-1 regular season)

6. Eric Zeier = (1-3 regular season)

7. Drew Bledsoe = (5-13 regular season)

8. Matt Cassel = (10-5 regular season)

9. Jimmy Garoppolo = (2-0 regular season)

10. Jacoby Brissett = (1-1 regular season)

11. Cam Newton = (6-8 regular season)

12. Brian Hoyer = (0-1 regular season)


= 12 different starting QBs in total = a record of 60-72 (regular season) and (1-1 in the playoffs) = 61-73 record overall


Cleveland Browns

1991: 6-10 regular season
1992: 7-9 regular season
1993: 7-9 regular season
1994: 11-5 regular season (1-1 playoffs - 12-6 overall) (lost 29-9 in AFC Divisional Round)
1995: 5-11 regular season

= 36-44 (regular season) 1-1 (playoffs) 37-45 (overall)


New England Patriots

2000: 5-11 regular season (Drew Bledsoe)
2001: 0-2 regular season (Drew Bledsoe)
2008: 10-5 regular season (Matt Cassel)
2016: 3-1 regular season (Jimmy Garoppolo / Jacoby Brissett)
2020: 6-9 so far regular season (Cam Newton / Brian Hoyer)

= 24-28 so far (regular season)


= overall (Browns and Patriots) 60-72 (regular season) and (1-1 in the playoffs) = 61-73 record overall


In the 8 seasons that Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as his starting QB, he has had just 2 winning seasons, 11-5 in 1994 (Browns), with Vinny Testaverde / Mark Rypien, and 11-5 in 2008 (Patriots), with Matt Cassel (Brady started the first game that season).

6 out of the 8 seasons in which Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as his starting QB, were seasons in which he had a losing record.

In the 8 seasons that Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as his starting QB, he has made the playoffs just 1 time. In 1994, with an 11-5 record (Browns). In that one season that he made the playoffs, he went 1-1 in the playoffs, and lost 29-9 in the AFC divisional round against the Steelers.

In the 3 seasons that Bill Belichick did not have Tom Brady as the starter of the Patriots, he has 2 losing seasons, and failed to make the playoffs all 3 times.

With the New England Patriots, Bill Belichick's head coaching record without Tom Brady as his starting QB is 24-28.

also points out how rarely great franchise players come along. this true in any sport. i see 5 players there who were highly regarded out of college

[rapstarter]

Brady's obviously been a huge part of the Patriot's incredible success, but judging Belichick based on his 24-28 record without Brady is disingenuous. If you focus on Cassel, Garoppolo, and Brissett which is when the Patriots actually had a very good team overall, the record is pretty respectable at 13-6 (especially if you consider those three were/are mediocre at best).

And of course this season's been extremely tough on New England even without considering Brady's departure.

[dhsilv2]

I've got Duncan over MJ....and I have no real thoughts on Brady. So much more a team sport than basketball even.

[EArl]

6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.

as someone who doesn't watch football, why do you say that? my understanding is that individual NBA players influence the outcome in basketball more than individuals in football?

Brady's 6 is already greater than Jordan's 6. It's more difficult to win in football for many reasons - 1-and-done playoff format, less control (Brady only plays offense, so he has no say on the defensive end, unlike basketball players), and the fact that you have 50+ teammates you need to rely on (whereas in basketball you're playing with a 12-man roster which shrinks to about 8 during playoffs).

So wouldn't that imply that he has less overall influence in a game compared to a basketball player that has to play both sides of the ball. On top of that you have 8-10 players playing compared to a crapload of people on an NFL team which again reduces his influence over winning a game.
I do agree about the 1 and done rule. You can also argue that winning a game was lucky and that you weren't necessarily better than the other team. That the ball just rolled your way that day,
What I'm basically saying that as a basketball player, one player has more effect on the game compared to the NFL.

[Harry Garris]

Without question. It is so much harder to sustain success in the NFL than it is in the NBA. Basketball mostly comes down to talent, if you can get 2 or 3 stars to commit to a team long term they are going to sustain success regardless of what else happens. With football there is so much more roster turnover, injuries, players careers and peaks are much shorter, and the NFL is designed to be more competitive top to bottom. Brady was the driving force behind the longest lasting and most dominant dynasty in NFL history, with no close second. The same cannot be said for MJ.

[_qubik]

Well, worldwide a lot of us see American sports as entertainment, because NBA is the best basketball league and NFL is the only american footbal league we know, but I agree with some guys, MJ made it global, if you ask some adult in Brazil to say the name of one basketball player it will almost always be MJ, man, we know Tom Brady because he is married with one the most succesful brazilian models And if you ask generally neither would enter any list comparing other sports, any soccer fan will cite that soccer is at least a continental sport while NFL and NBA are played with a small amount of teams inside only the US. Don't get me wrong, both are the best in their sports, known worldwide even if their sports are played only in their country (at this level), its of course a great achievment.

[JN61]

In what? American NFL vs NBA scenario? There are more successful athletes than either.

[Mirotic12]

Brady's obviously been a huge part of the Patriot's incredible success, but judging Belichick based on his 24-28 record without Brady is disingenuous. If you focus on Cassel, Garoppolo, and Brissett which is when the Patriots actually had a very good team overall, the record is pretty respectable at 13-6 (especially if you consider those three were/are mediocre at best).

And of course this season's been extremely tough on New England even without considering Brady's departure.

So we are supposed to take a 19 game sample size of 13-6, and ignore an 8 season sample size of 134 games, with a record of 61-73 and one single playoff appearance and one single playoff win?

I can't think of any other NFL head coach in history that would be given such passes and leeway as that. No other NFL head coach would ever get any free pass even close to that.

And if you talk about good teams and QBs as the sample size, Belichick inherited a Browns team that had went to 3 AFC championship games, and the starting QB that took them there, in Bernie Kosar. He then promptly immediately took them to several losing seasons.

When Belichick got to New England, he inherited a team that had a whole bunch of draft picks from Bill Parcells and Pete Carroll, that eventually formed the basis of his team's defense. He didn't build it, he inherited it. He also had Bledsoe at quarterback, and he made 4 pro bowls, and won 2 conference championships in his career, so he was far away from being any scrub.

What did Belichick do? He took a team that went to the Super Bowl under Parcells, and to the playoffs under Carroll, and started 5-13 in his first 18 games, 5-11 in 2000 and 0-2 in 2001, until Bledsoe got injured and Brady came in as the starter. Then Brady went 14-3 the rest of the 2001 season and won the Super Bowl.

[Shock Defeat]

He's not going to win his 7th ring this year. The Bucs are a decent team but will get beat by true contenders in the NFC. Not to mention the Chiefs would wreck them if they ever got to a super bowl.

[AlexanderRight]

From an organization standpoint, 6 Super Bowls is greater than 6 NBA Championships. But for an individual players’ legacy, 6 NBA rings is greater because one player has a greater influence on the game of basketball than in football. Brady plays one half of the game. Jordan has 6 Finals MVPs. NFL is a coaches league. Bellicheck was the leader of that dynasty. Jordan made the Bulls.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Yes and no.

It's harder for to do that in football, but football is also more of a team sport.

Jordan was impressive because he couldn't be stopped. He just kept on winning over and over and over and over while statistically dominating the league.

This is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Yes and no.

It's harder for to do that in football, but football is also more of a team sport.

Jordan was impressive because he couldn't be stopped. He just kept on winning over and over and over and over while statistically dominating the league.

I mean, could Michael Jordan go scoreless and let his teammates defense win the game for him?

This is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison.

[bmurph128]

6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.

Far, far, far, far, far more impressive.

Brady also played during the same era with his "LeBron", in Manning.

MJ beat some great teams, but he never once went up against someone as talented as him. Brady did it multiple times - well, not really since he doesn't play defense - but he had to contend with a top 3 all time QB for most of his career.

[reapaman]

6 superbowls is far more impressive than 6 NBA championships.

Far, far, far, far, far more impressive.

Brady also played during the same era with his "LeBron", in Manning.

MJ beat some great teams, but he never once went up against someone as talented as him. Brady did it multiple times - well, not really since he doesn't play defense - but he had to contend with a top 3 all time QB for most of his career.

Respectfully I strongly disagree.

Brady doesn’t play defense so he can’t go against another quarterback.

There’s also a long list of teams that won super bowls despite their quarterbacks playing meh or bad and Brady is included especially the patriots last Super Bowl win when he did almost nothing. There’s not many nba championships won (if any) if your star player doesn’t show up.

Also to piggy back off the last point, Eli Manning has two Super Bowl wins (both over Brady). I have nothing more to say.