Frank Thread 3: FIBA Frank Aftermath

[god shammgod]

look, in a perfect world you'd have someone who could defend the 1 and catch and shoot 3s, create for himself and occasionally others at times next to rj. there's nobody like that but trier is the closest. he just needs to become decent defensively. he's physically up the task and might be better suited guarding the 1 because he's slightly undersized with short arms at the 2.

Everything you mentioned we need is what frank was during FIBA ball.

Actually I would argue frank is the closest if he just can knock down the 3 at league average. He’s a better facilitator than trier, and a significantly better defender. He just needs to shoot it better. End of discussion lol

you don't say

[Deeeez Knicks]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad though

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator...spread the floor

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Fun fact

DSJ shot 34% from 3 on catch and shoot situations in Dallas, at 2 per game

It's not amazing or anything, but it does show he can work off ball if you have a good facilitator next to him. Shot 20% from 3 on catch and shoot with us, so it seems like more of an us problem than a DSJ problem

34% is ok, but not really great. He still struggled playing off the ball a lot and looked pretty bad in that role. The shooting wasn;t the only issue.

But he can get better and will def get his chances to play. I am not ruling him out. If we are building around RJ, he just doesnt seem like a great fit at this point. But things can change and we will see how it works out

[GONYK]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad thought.

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

Watch his NCAA tournament games from last year. He largely played as the teams PG in that stretch and played very unselfishly and with his teammates in mind.

He's obviously a guy who likes to score, but I think him being a "chucker" had to do with the team construct at Duke. Zion was great but he wasn't much of a self creator. He was more like an hyper elite play finisher. Cam was trash most of the season and was pretty much limited to spot up duty and very limited playmaking opportunities.

RJ was really the only guy on that team who could handle the ball on the perimeter and get his own shot. I think as he adjusts to the NBA you'll see him become more of a passer with better talent around him.

Well, I never really called him a chucker. I soured on him last year when he went into "hero-ball", but I think he's definitely more of a playmaker for others than someone like Zo.

I don't know if I see a primary initiator though. I think he definitely thrives in the role that sham is projecting Trier playing next to RJ, which is a secondary playmaker who can create for others or himself when things break down or he attacks from the weak side.

Do you see a full PG level out of him? I'm not seeing a Harden.

[mpharris36]

look, in a perfect world you'd have someone who could defend the 1 and catch and shoot 3s, create for himself and occasionally others at times next to rj. there's nobody like that but trier is the closest. he just needs to become decent defensively. he's physically up the task and might be better suited guarding the 1 because he's slightly undersized with short arms at the 2.

Everything you mentioned we need is what frank was during FIBA ball.

Actually I would argue frank is the closest if he just can knock down the 3 at league average. He’s a better facilitator than trier, and a significantly better defender. He just needs to shoot it better. End of discussion lol

you don't say

I mean it’s not rocket science I have seen frank make 3’s he just needs to do it consistently and be given the opportunity. I know for certain trier can’t defend. And chase down blocks don’t count lol.


Trier is a good player within his limits. I don’t see that being a starting PG. because RJ and trier #1 option is to score. Who’s going to take on for the team and distribute to get randle/Mitch/Morris/Knox there looks? Who’s going to sacrifice? And do we want to guys that are good at scoring limiting themselves together?

I dont

[GONYK]

I am with Sham on this one and I like the idea of an RJ/Trier backcourt in the right lineups. I think RJ is best as a facilitator and would want to surround him with players that can spread the floor and/or defend. Payton seems like a bad fit. Maybe Frank can take that leap. But the issue with RJ/DSJ is that both seem like really bad off the ball players. At least Trier can shoot pretty well.

Ideally, I think Frank has the potential to be a nice fit if he can play like he did in FIBA.

No matter what we will probably be bad thought.

If we are building around RJ and Mitch, I do kinda like these type of lineups though where we can put RJ as a facilitator

Mitch
Morris or Randle
Iggy or Dotson
Frank or Trier
RJ

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

I think RJ is def a facilitator. Maybe ideally he is more of a secondary facilitator, and not really a primary one....or at least not right now. it is probably asking a lot for him to run the offense now. But we dont really have many great facilitators and I think he can play that role in stretches for us. It will probably be one of those cases where we share the responsibilities.

But if we put him in lineups with shooters and defenders I think he has the best chance for success. And I know he will probably go thru some struggles and it could get ugly at times but it may help him in the end.

Well, I agree that we don't have m(any) great facilitators and RJ can fill that role for us in stretches. I don't think, by simple deduction, that makes RJ a great facilitator in the primary sense. The tallest midget isn't objectively tall, necessarily.

I guess what I'm saying is that surrounding him with shooters and defenders might be great for him, but I don't know if he's really at the level where it will elevate those around him. It will just put him in the role where he's most comfortable, even if it's not the most effective.

I guess we'll see how he adjusts in the NBA.

[god shammgod]

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

Watch his NCAA tournament games from last year. He largely played as the teams PG in that stretch and played very unselfishly and with his teammates in mind.

He's obviously a guy who likes to score, but I think him being a "chucker" had to do with the team construct at Duke. Zion was great but he wasn't much of a self creator. He was more like an hyper elite play finisher. Cam was trash most of the season and was pretty much limited to spot up duty and very limited playmaking opportunities.

RJ was really the only guy on that team who could handle the ball on the perimeter and get his own shot. I think as he adjusts to the NBA you'll see him become more of a passer with better talent around him.

Well, I never really called him a chucker. I soured on him last year when he went into "hero-ball", but I think he's definitely more of a playmaker for others than someone like Zo.

I don't know if I see a primary initiator though. I think he definitely thrives in the role that sham is projecting Trier playing next to RJ, which is a secondary playmaker who can create for others or himself when things break down or he attacks from the weak side.

Do you see a full PG level out of him? I'm not seeing a Harden.

a year 1 harden ? were you sure at that point he should run the offense ?

he didn't even have 2 assists in 20 minutes per. harden's first 3 years he didn't even get to 4 assists and he was playing 30 minutes by year 3.

and in college he had 3.7 and barrett had 4.1

it takes some prognosticating, yes. but if okc had thought that way they may have kept harden & durant together instead of playing him behind westbrook, hi dennis smith jr, and eventually losing him.

[GONYK]

Watch his NCAA tournament games from last year. He largely played as the teams PG in that stretch and played very unselfishly and with his teammates in mind.

He's obviously a guy who likes to score, but I think him being a "chucker" had to do with the team construct at Duke. Zion was great but he wasn't much of a self creator. He was more like an hyper elite play finisher. Cam was trash most of the season and was pretty much limited to spot up duty and very limited playmaking opportunities.

RJ was really the only guy on that team who could handle the ball on the perimeter and get his own shot. I think as he adjusts to the NBA you'll see him become more of a passer with better talent around him.

Well, I never really called him a chucker. I soured on him last year when he went into "hero-ball", but I think he's definitely more of a playmaker for others than someone like Zo.

I don't know if I see a primary initiator though. I think he definitely thrives in the role that sham is projecting Trier playing next to RJ, which is a secondary playmaker who can create for others or himself when things break down or he attacks from the weak side.

Do you see a full PG level out of him? I'm not seeing a Harden.

a year 1 harden ? were you sure at that point he should run the offense ?

he didn't even have 2 assists in 20 minutes per. harden's first 3 years he didn't even get to 4 assists and he was playing 30 minutes by year 3.

and in college he had 3.7 and barrett had 4.1

it takes some prognosticating, yes. but if okc had thought that way they may have kept harden & durant together instead of playing him behind westbrook, hi dennis smith jr, and eventually losing him.

Year 3 Harden was definitely showing enough to be a primary initiator.

But your question is tricky, because you want to put a year 1 RJ in the current Harden role.

If your argument is that year 1 Harden, who was a much better ballhandler and shooter than RJ coming into the league didn't really thrive in the role, then why would it be beneficial for RJ?

I would think bringing him up in the secondary role until he improves would be better for his growth.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

I think RJ is def a facilitator. Maybe ideally he is more of a secondary facilitator, and not really a primary one....or at least not right now. it is probably asking a lot for him to run the offense now. But we dont really have many great facilitators and I think he can play that role in stretches for us. It will probably be one of those cases where we share the responsibilities.

But if we put him in lineups with shooters and defenders I think he has the best chance for success. And I know he will probably go thru some struggles and it could get ugly at times but it may help him in the end.

Well, I agree that we don't have m(any) great facilitators and RJ can fill that role for us in stretches. I don't think, by simple deduction, that makes RJ a great facilitator in the primary sense. The tallest midget isn't objectively tall, necessarily.

I guess what I'm saying is that surrounding him with shooters and defenders might be great for him, but I don't know if he's really at the level where it will elevate those around him. It will just put him in the role where he's most comfortable, even if it's not the most effective.

I guess we'll see how he adjusts in the NBA.

Yeah, there really isn't an ideal solution. I would put a priority on developing RJ....plus Mitch but he works with anyone. With RJ, I would want to encourage him to be more of a passer. RJ as a passer is the skill set that I think can set him a part and gives him his most upside. He def got into trouble when he tried to force shots and went into hero mode. He could also get into trouble if he tries to do too much as a facilitator too. The trick is finding the right balance which can be very tough to figure out and take some time.

I think we should still play him minutes with DSJ/Payton so he doesnt have all the pressure, but also give him some minutes with Frank/Trier to help encourage him. If there are times when things arent going well, put him in pick n rolls with Mitch/Randle along with some shooters and defenders it could help get him going.

[MadGrinch]

well, while everyone fights between them, i'm not a big fan of dennis or frank. trier at least has shown that he has an actual nba skill-set that's useful. i can't really say that about those other two. and it's also about who fits with rj. rj has to start because him being successful is the most important goal for this franchise going forward. more than winning games or making the playoffs, the main goal for this year should be making sure he's catered to and developed. he's the highest draft pick in 30 something years. if he fails it's real bad for everyone involved. i would rather the knicks win 17 games and he's in the rookie of the year conversation than them make the playoffs and he has a lackluster year. they're selling the knicks being good as important to attract free agents but him being good is really more important.

the thing about Trier is that he's almost useless when he's not iso'ing because he doesn't move without the ball , his shots per minute are basically even with dotson .

his usage is less than virtually every offensive player on the roster last season and on a 65 loss team with many of it younger players are taking more of an offensive initiative, that has to be a major red flag.

Trier shot 44% on catch and shoot 3's so I think he can be a good off the ball player and help spread the more. He is def not useless off the ball. As a team we were poor with off the ball movement so I think that is more on coaching and lack of a system last year. Hopefully that changes this year.

My issue isn’t with his %’s but the fact when he isn’t creating isolation opportunities for himself he doesn’t avail himself to other opportunities to score .

No real spotting up
No cutting off ball really
And it’s not like he’s creating hockey assists either or screen assists either getting people open or moving the ball to get others shots

If he doesn’t have the ball in his hands he plays like he’s not interested

If he were a harden-level iso scorer worthy of being the 1st option it would be more excusable

But his usage was at 21.5 that’s barely an offensive player

His lack of offensive drive actually makes it harder for the other players around him because in spite of his percentages he isn’t spacing the floor

No team is going to scheme to stop .8 makes a game.

[Knicksfan1992]

Honest question: Is RJ a facilitator, or just a player that thrives with the ball in his hands?

I don't see him as a player who's primarily concerned with making plays for others. He's trying to score. He's got above average vision, and can make some plays for sure, but he's not someone who has shown enough to be a primary initiator at this stage in his career, IMO.

Watch his NCAA tournament games from last year. He largely played as the teams PG in that stretch and played very unselfishly and with his teammates in mind.

He's obviously a guy who likes to score, but I think him being a "chucker" had to do with the team construct at Duke. Zion was great but he wasn't much of a self creator. He was more like an hyper elite play finisher. Cam was trash most of the season and was pretty much limited to spot up duty and very limited playmaking opportunities.

RJ was really the only guy on that team who could handle the ball on the perimeter and get his own shot. I think as he adjusts to the NBA you'll see him become more of a passer with better talent around him.

Well, I never really called him a chucker. I soured on him last year when he went into "hero-ball", but I think he's definitely more of a playmaker for others than someone like Zo.

I don't know if I see a primary initiator though. I think he definitely thrives in the role that sham is projecting Trier playing next to RJ, which is a secondary playmaker who can create for others or himself when things break down or he attacks from the weak side.

Do you see a full PG level out of him? I'm not seeing a Harden.

No I don't think he's at that level but I think he could function at it for stretches if used correctly in that role. But I think that all depends on who the Knicks surround him with as well. If you put him next to other guys who don't have soem creation ability for others he'll probably struggle as a primary initiator. However, if you put him next to other guys who can pass, dribble, shoot then I'd think he'd be good as a primary initiator.

Also I think having guys with the roll gravity that Mitch and Randle have will really help RJ as well. At Duke Coach K never used Zion as a roll threat. Like literally never and I think it doomed them because RJ didn't have a good pick and roll partner to operate with.

[thebuzzardman]

I think RJ is def a facilitator. Maybe ideally he is more of a secondary facilitator, and not really a primary one....or at least not right now. it is probably asking a lot for him to run the offense now. But we dont really have many great facilitators and I think he can play that role in stretches for us. It will probably be one of those cases where we share the responsibilities.

But if we put him in lineups with shooters and defenders I think he has the best chance for success. And I know he will probably go thru some struggles and it could get ugly at times but it may help him in the end.

Well, I agree that we don't have m(any) great facilitators and RJ can fill that role for us in stretches. I don't think, by simple deduction, that makes RJ a great facilitator in the primary sense. The tallest midget isn't objectively tall, necessarily.

I guess what I'm saying is that surrounding him with shooters and defenders might be great for him, but I don't know if he's really at the level where it will elevate those around him. It will just put him in the role where he's most comfortable, even if it's not the most effective.

I guess we'll see how he adjusts in the NBA.

Yeah, there really isn't an ideal solution. I would put a priority on developing RJ....plus Mitch but he works with anyone. With RJ, I would want to encourage him to be more of a passer. RJ as a passer is the skill set that I think can set him a part and gives him his most upside. He def got into trouble when he tried to force shots and went into hero mode. He could also get into trouble if he tries to do too much as a facilitator too. The trick is finding the right balance which can be very tough to figure out and take some time.

I think we should still play him minutes with DSJ/Payton so he doesnt have all the pressure, but also give him some minutes with Frank/Trier to help encourage him. If there are times when things arent going well, put him in pick n rolls with Mitch/Randle along with some shooters and defenders it could help get him going.

Probably a stretch, and I'm not advocating for any one PG over another, but Fiz just picked up two players from New Orleans. I get that one of them, Payton, has ties to Perry.

Anyway, though the offenses run aren't the same, was wondering if perhaps it's in the mind of Fiz to run an offense similar to the Pels, with Randle at the 4 and 5, but also with two "PG's", in the sense that RJ will handle the ball a lot at "SG", and kind of split the PG duties with player "X" like the Pels ran out JRue and Payton.

I get there is no comp to made between JRue and RJ and I'm not insinuating Payton into the starting lineup, but throwing the idea out there.

[god shammgod]

Well, I never really called him a chucker. I soured on him last year when he went into "hero-ball", but I think he's definitely more of a playmaker for others than someone like Zo.

I don't know if I see a primary initiator though. I think he definitely thrives in the role that sham is projecting Trier playing next to RJ, which is a secondary playmaker who can create for others or himself when things break down or he attacks from the weak side.

Do you see a full PG level out of him? I'm not seeing a Harden.

a year 1 harden ? were you sure at that point he should run the offense ?

he didn't even have 2 assists in 20 minutes per. harden's first 3 years he didn't even get to 4 assists and he was playing 30 minutes by year 3.

and in college he had 3.7 and barrett had 4.1

it takes some prognosticating, yes. but if okc had thought that way they may have kept harden & durant together instead of playing him behind westbrook, hi dennis smith jr, and eventually losing him.

Year 3 Harden was definitely showing enough to be a primary initiator.

But your question is tricky, because you want to put a year 1 RJ in the current Harden role.

If your argument is that year 1 Harden, who was a much better ballhandler and shooter than RJ coming into the league didn't really thrive in the role, then why would it be beneficial for RJ?

I would think bringing him up in the secondary role until he improves would be better for his growth.

he wasn't in that role because westbrook was there. and because of that he wasn't ever really able to reach his full potential until he left for another team where he could be in that role full time. nobody was really sure how good he was until he left. he was somewhat held back. if he wasn't they might have really known what they had.

look, i've said it earlier, i'm mostly interested in doing everything possible to make rj succeed and this is to me how he's gonna succeed. he's not the shooter harden is, correct. so as an off the ball player he won't be that successful. he needs the ball.

[thebuzzardman]

a year 1 harden ? were you sure at that point he should run the offense ?

he didn't even have 2 assists in 20 minutes per. harden's first 3 years he didn't even get to 4 assists and he was playing 30 minutes by year 3.

and in college he had 3.7 and barrett had 4.1

it takes some prognosticating, yes. but if okc had thought that way they may have kept harden & durant together instead of playing him behind westbrook, hi dennis smith jr, and eventually losing him.

Year 3 Harden was definitely showing enough to be a primary initiator.

But your question is tricky, because you want to put a year 1 RJ in the current Harden role.

If your argument is that year 1 Harden, who was a much better ballhandler and shooter than RJ coming into the league didn't really thrive in the role, then why would it be beneficial for RJ?

I would think bringing him up in the secondary role until he improves would be better for his growth.

he wasn't in that role because westbrook was there. and because of that he wasn't ever really able to reach his full potential until he left for another team where he could be in that role full time. nobody was really sure how good he was until he left. he was somewhat held back. if he wasn't they might have really known what they had.

look, i've said it earlier, i'm mostly interested in doing everything possible to make rj succeed and this is to me how he's gonna succeed. he's not the shooter harden is, correct. so as an off the ball player he won't be that successful. he needs the ball.

Not knocking RJ, and not sure he'll be different in the more open spaces of the NBA - but also with everyone an NBA caliber defender, but aren't some of the knocks on him that he's a bit mechanical and also his handle needs some work? Is that the person you want with the ball in their hands the vast majority of the time as a rookie?

Maybe a secondary role, with the potential for more primary touches initiating the offense, IF he's capable, later on in the season. Or it could be setting him up for some early failure instead of success?

[DOT]

Well, I agree that we don't have m(any) great facilitators and RJ can fill that role for us in stretches. I don't think, by simple deduction, that makes RJ a great facilitator in the primary sense. The tallest midget isn't objectively tall, necessarily.

I guess what I'm saying is that surrounding him with shooters and defenders might be great for him, but I don't know if he's really at the level where it will elevate those around him. It will just put him in the role where he's most comfortable, even if it's not the most effective.

I guess we'll see how he adjusts in the NBA.

Yeah, there really isn't an ideal solution. I would put a priority on developing RJ....plus Mitch but he works with anyone. With RJ, I would want to encourage him to be more of a passer. RJ as a passer is the skill set that I think can set him a part and gives him his most upside. He def got into trouble when he tried to force shots and went into hero mode. He could also get into trouble if he tries to do too much as a facilitator too. The trick is finding the right balance which can be very tough to figure out and take some time.

I think we should still play him minutes with DSJ/Payton so he doesnt have all the pressure, but also give him some minutes with Frank/Trier to help encourage him. If there are times when things arent going well, put him in pick n rolls with Mitch/Randle along with some shooters and defenders it could help get him going.

Probably a stretch, and I'm not advocating for any one PG over another, but Fiz just picked up two players from New Orleans. I get that one of them, Payton, has ties to Perry.

Anyway, though the offenses run aren't the same, was wondering if perhaps it's in the mind of Fiz to run an offense similar to the Pels, with Randle at the 4 and 5, but also with two "PG's", in the sense that RJ will handle the ball a lot at "SG", and kind of split the PG duties with player "X" like the Pels ran out JRue and Payton.

I get there is no comp to made between JRue and RJ and I'm not insinuating Payton into the starting lineup, but throwing the idea out there.

That's cause we're chasing AD in the summer

[3toheadmelo]

DSJ had one of the best games of his career next to Luka. He can definitely make it work with RJ. Especially with an improved jumper.

Watch on YouTube

[god shammgod]

Year 3 Harden was definitely showing enough to be a primary initiator.

But your question is tricky, because you want to put a year 1 RJ in the current Harden role.

If your argument is that year 1 Harden, who was a much better ballhandler and shooter than RJ coming into the league didn't really thrive in the role, then why would it be beneficial for RJ?

I would think bringing him up in the secondary role until he improves would be better for his growth.

he wasn't in that role because westbrook was there. and because of that he wasn't ever really able to reach his full potential until he left for another team where he could be in that role full time. nobody was really sure how good he was until he left. he was somewhat held back. if he wasn't they might have really known what they had.

look, i've said it earlier, i'm mostly interested in doing everything possible to make rj succeed and this is to me how he's gonna succeed. he's not the shooter harden is, correct. so as an off the ball player he won't be that successful. he needs the ball.

Not knocking RJ, and not sure he'll be different in the more open spaces of the NBA - but also with everyone an NBA caliber defender, but aren't some of the knocks on him that he's a bit mechanical and also his handle needs some work? Is that the person you want with the ball in their hands the vast majority of the time as a rookie?

Maybe a secondary role, with the potential for more primary touches initiating the offense, IF he's capable, later on in the season. Or it could be setting him up for some early failure instead of success?

his handle needs to get a little better but, as you say, the spacing of the nba will help him and his size at the 2 will let him see over the defense a lot. but it's also why you play with him trier who can shoot, so he has good spacing, and can also handle the ball and be a secondary facilitator. i think he'll actually make better reads than dennis or frank. don't listen to me, listen to this guy. he knows a thing or two.

Read on Twitter

that's a totally unbiased opinion.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Well, I agree that we don't have m(any) great facilitators and RJ can fill that role for us in stretches. I don't think, by simple deduction, that makes RJ a great facilitator in the primary sense. The tallest midget isn't objectively tall, necessarily.

I guess what I'm saying is that surrounding him with shooters and defenders might be great for him, but I don't know if he's really at the level where it will elevate those around him. It will just put him in the role where he's most comfortable, even if it's not the most effective.

I guess we'll see how he adjusts in the NBA.

Yeah, there really isn't an ideal solution. I would put a priority on developing RJ....plus Mitch but he works with anyone. With RJ, I would want to encourage him to be more of a passer. RJ as a passer is the skill set that I think can set him a part and gives him his most upside. He def got into trouble when he tried to force shots and went into hero mode. He could also get into trouble if he tries to do too much as a facilitator too. The trick is finding the right balance which can be very tough to figure out and take some time.

I think we should still play him minutes with DSJ/Payton so he doesnt have all the pressure, but also give him some minutes with Frank/Trier to help encourage him. If there are times when things arent going well, put him in pick n rolls with Mitch/Randle along with some shooters and defenders it could help get him going.

Probably a stretch, and I'm not advocating for any one PG over another, but Fiz just picked up two players from New Orleans. I get that one of them, Payton, has ties to Perry.

Anyway, though the offenses run aren't the same, was wondering if perhaps it's in the mind of Fiz to run an offense similar to the Pels, with Randle at the 4 and 5, but also with two "PG's", in the sense that RJ will handle the ball a lot at "SG", and kind of split the PG duties with player "X" like the Pels ran out JRue and Payton.

I get there is no comp to made between JRue and RJ and I'm not insinuating Payton into the starting lineup, but throwing the idea out there.

Maybe that's there plan, but it seems like a really bad idea to model the offense after a team like the Pelicans that underachieved...and we dont even have anyone close to AD or Jrue's level.

[thebuzzardman]

he wasn't in that role because westbrook was there. and because of that he wasn't ever really able to reach his full potential until he left for another team where he could be in that role full time. nobody was really sure how good he was until he left. he was somewhat held back. if he wasn't they might have really known what they had.

look, i've said it earlier, i'm mostly interested in doing everything possible to make rj succeed and this is to me how he's gonna succeed. he's not the shooter harden is, correct. so as an off the ball player he won't be that successful. he needs the ball.

Not knocking RJ, and not sure he'll be different in the more open spaces of the NBA - but also with everyone an NBA caliber defender, but aren't some of the knocks on him that he's a bit mechanical and also his handle needs some work? Is that the person you want with the ball in their hands the vast majority of the time as a rookie?

Maybe a secondary role, with the potential for more primary touches initiating the offense, IF he's capable, later on in the season. Or it could be setting him up for some early failure instead of success?

his handle needs to get a little better but, as you say, the spacing of the nba will help him and his size at the 2 will let him see over the defense a lot. but it's also why you play with him trier who can shoot, so he has good spacing, and can also handle the ball and be a secondary facilitator. i think he'll actually make better reads than dennis or frank. don't listen to me, listen to this guy. he knows a thing or two.

Read on Twitter

that's a totally unbiased opinion.

Maybe I recall other posts by you, but I was wondering if you were going to suggest Trier next to him, as Payton, Frank and DSJr aren't necessarily reliable enough shooters. But that might change, considering DSJr seems to have put in a lot of work and maybe Frank turned the corner. Payton, I'll assume he is what he is, for now.

[thebuzzardman]

Yeah, there really isn't an ideal solution. I would put a priority on developing RJ....plus Mitch but he works with anyone. With RJ, I would want to encourage him to be more of a passer. RJ as a passer is the skill set that I think can set him a part and gives him his most upside. He def got into trouble when he tried to force shots and went into hero mode. He could also get into trouble if he tries to do too much as a facilitator too. The trick is finding the right balance which can be very tough to figure out and take some time.

I think we should still play him minutes with DSJ/Payton so he doesnt have all the pressure, but also give him some minutes with Frank/Trier to help encourage him. If there are times when things arent going well, put him in pick n rolls with Mitch/Randle along with some shooters and defenders it could help get him going.

Probably a stretch, and I'm not advocating for any one PG over another, but Fiz just picked up two players from New Orleans. I get that one of them, Payton, has ties to Perry.

Anyway, though the offenses run aren't the same, was wondering if perhaps it's in the mind of Fiz to run an offense similar to the Pels, with Randle at the 4 and 5, but also with two "PG's", in the sense that RJ will handle the ball a lot at "SG", and kind of split the PG duties with player "X" like the Pels ran out JRue and Payton.

I get there is no comp to made between JRue and RJ and I'm not insinuating Payton into the starting lineup, but throwing the idea out there.

Maybe that's there plan, but it seems like a really bad idea to model the offense after a team like the Pelicans that underachieved...and we dont even have anyone close to AD or Jrue's level.

My post was going to include a sentence along the lines of "but it would be a bootleg version of the Pels, who only won around 30 games" but I held back.

[god shammgod]

i'm searching for evidence ....and the ringer agrees with me

The good and bad of RJ Barrett was on display at Las Vegas summer league. Barrett, who was called “Maple Mamba” as a teenager in Canada, played like a bad parody of Kobe Bryant in his first two games with the Knicks. The no. 3 pick forced the issue on offense and hunted for his own shot without any regard for his teammates. He was a different player in their last three games: He played within himself, moved the ball, and took what the defense gave him.

The difference in his statistics was staggering. Not only did Barrett rack up more assists while turning over the ball less, he also became a more efficient scorer.

Barrett has a lot going for him. At 6-foot-7 and 202 pounds with a 6-foot-10 wingspan, he’s a 19-year-old with the chiseled frame of an older player. He knows how to use his size to get into the lane and score over smaller defenders, as well as to create space to shoot off the dribble. Barrett is an aggressive player who finds ways to score even on nights when his shot isn’t falling. He always plays hard and has a nose for the ball.

But for all his talent, he’s not talented enough to be a one-man offense in the NBA. The biggest issue is his inconsistent outside shot. Barrett shot a lot of 3s in his one season at Duke (6.2 per game) but didn’t make enough (30.8 percent) to force defenders to guard him on the perimeter. His poor free throw shooting (66.5 percent on 5.9 attempts per game) is an even bigger red flag, as that number is often a better indicator of a prospect’s ability to shoot from the deeper NBA 3-point line.

Barrett also doesn’t have the über-athleticism to get to the rim at will and finish in traffic. He’s a good but not great athlete who depends on being able to bully smaller defenders. He doesn’t have a Plan B when matched up with NBA-caliber defenders who have the size and athleticism to hang with him physically. According to the tracking numbers at Synergy Sports, Barrett was only in the 43rd percentile of NCAA players last season when scoring in the lane. Most of those attempts came in traffic, when he tried to force something instead of finding an open teammate after he drew a crowd.

Barrett is at his best as a point forward, where he can balance scoring and passing. He’s a smart player who can see over the top of the defense and whip the ball across the court while driving to the basket. Moving the ball also makes him less predictable. Without the threat of the pass, it’s too easy for defenders to anticipate what he will do when he lowers his shoulder and tries to finish every drive that he starts. That’s why he racked up so many offensive fouls in his first two games in Vegas.

The same pattern played out in college. Barrett averaged 21.9 points on 47.3 percent shooting in the eight games in which he had seven or more assists last season, compared with 22.8 points on 44.9 percent shooting in the 30 games in which he had six or fewer assists. The difference wasn’t a product of worse competition, either. His season high for assists (11) was in the Sweet 16 against 4-seed Virginia Tech.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/8/8/20756167/rj-barrett-new-york-knicks