So why hasn't Kawhi gotten any flack for colluding?

[Baski]

As somebody else said, he's built a persona and it's hard to shake a first impression. It's the same reason why, in spite of everything pointing to Kawhi and his uncle having long had intentions to leave and successfully engineering their escape,
some people continue to peddle the "both sides were wrong" narrative with respect to his breakup with the Spurs. It's just hard to accept that our good old quiet humble robotic hero who stood up to the ultimate douche could be an ultimate douche himself

[Baski]

Holy **** did I read that Tim Duncan "wanted touches"? That's some flat earth level stuff.

Everyone can have an opinion but there's gotta be a penalty for saying things like this. Could be extreme ignorance or blatant lying, but deserving of ridicule either way.

[dantheman74]

Noone really cares about players wanting to side with other do they? I've embraced superteams.

[Jayt99]

Kawhi just asked for a Co-star

Lebron forms big 3 with perennial all-stars. He’s also passive aggressive and throws shade. Kawhi earned much more respect because he’s quiet and just does his thing. He should get **** for what he did to the spurs tho literally quit on the team. Don’t see the big deal in this as both teams OLC/Clips benefited. Don’t have much of a problem with this.

[FlatearthZorro]

I seriously just want people to admit that it's not the colluding that matters it's all about who is doing the colluding.

Kawhi - all good

Lebron - scum

is that about right when it comes to the Lebron/realgm relationship?

really curious.

Not really about LBJ-RealGM relationship. LBJ and his agent started a public fiasco cause they knew Boston would outbid the Lakers.They used the Knicks as a bait(Davis never wanted to go there). They did articles in magazines and interviews to say a guy who's under contract would or wouldn't play on certain teams. What Kawhi did was behind closed doors and the Thunder were okay with it(they knew they weren't winning a championship and got paid handsomely for trading George), while the Pels got strong-armed. It's really different.

[Baski]

Can someone explain whats wrong with "colluding" ? I'm not a fan of the NBA becoming less competitive but Leonard just wanted to play at home with a fellow great player. He didn't stack the deck like Bron did with Miami or Durant did with Golden State.

The league is probably at it's most wide open its been in years.

Rockets
Bucks
Philly
Lakers
Clippers
Nuggets/Blazers

All have a shot at getting to the finals

Leonard has paid his dues to the Spurs and Raptors. He gave them the ultimate prize and when it was time to leave, he left.

Spurs fans are understandably unhappy but get over it. He was a crucial part of winning you a championship. And for all the posters attempting to portray Leonard as just a cog in the wheel that won that title, why are you so vitriolic if he was so unimportant? I can't imagine being too upset if Kris Dunn of the Bulls asked for a trade to his homestate team.

Furthermore, answer this; If the Spurs decided to trade Leonard against his wishes for Doncic and KP, would you have the same angst directed towards the Spurs GM? Why is it so utterly dreadful for a player to request a trade to another team after paying his dues, but so fine if the team trades them mid-contract for an upgrade? Why can't players ever upgrade?

"bu- but he led the team on by lying about his injury!"

There's zero evidence that he was healthy and painfree. This is evidenced by his constant rest days with the Raptors and how quickly his body was breaking down during the postseason.
Even if you believe he lied about his injury and sat out the entire season out of protest, okay fine, that's the worst thing Leonard has done.

Raptors fans have absolutely zero reason to hate him. He came, he conquered, he left. Your team wasn't winning anything, ever without someone like him. Chuckrozan wasn't winning you anything. You guys need to retire his jersey. Not only did you guys win a Title but you beat literally the greatest team ever assembled (with some key injuries), it's one of the great post season runs in NBA history and it's all because of Leonard.

Cause he obviously became the teams best player after the 2014 season

To add to that, it's not that he left, it's HOW they went about it.

Which bring me to the periodic addressing of falsehoods that reappear now and again. As to the italicized part, for the umpteenth time, the Spurs diagnosed him with the more severe injury, repeatedly tried to shelve #2 for the season but THEY refused, this after repeatedly telling the team he was ready to go and then at the last minute backing out. This is AFTER they kept the team in the dark about his medical progress / issues, this AFTER #2 started ghosting team representatives (August, 2017) BEFORE any medical disagreements between the two sides surfaced.

Don't minimize sitting out for an entire season or justify it with 'out of protest' - it was unprofessional.

If uncle had been honest, he would not have declared #2 "100% healthy" conveniently around the time just before the 2018 draft. As it stands, all that rest the quad and knee needed vindicated the Spurs and the chronic condition they all along said he had. Spurs knew it; THEY knew it; then Raptors and the rest of the NBA knew it.

Somehow this almost always gets lost in discussion about #2 ending up in LA, but it needs repeating: 2016 is a crux year, the year when Elfus was let go (and if I recall, the lawsuit over unpaid fees owed to him is still pending, in which he also alleges that uncle and mom were being paid by the agency) and uncle took over. Agency was bleeding money, agency was infused with cash by a billionaire, billionaire put his son as manager of agency, son and uncle concocted a plan to get #2 in a bigger market. This has been central despite all the multiple narratives that were put out.

Just get the facts right. These were researched and written about by Michael C. Wright & Ramona and if memory serves, Woj, in addition to several Spurs sports writers closely following the events throughout the whole thing.

Anyway, there are now two franchises that, despite on court play, are glad to be done with the group. That is revealing in terms of the machinations that were swirling behind the scenes of which we are getting but glimpses.

As to the topic at hand, I'd be shocked if the NBA actually censured a player, and I'm not sure if they can do so for a player's representatives outside of an agent (maybe that can be something addressed in the new rules or CBA or something or the like). The only time I recall that a player was directly reprimanded was AD being fined $50K last season for publicly demanding a trade.

As with every thread where you make this clarification for those ignorant to what actually happened, it'll only take 1 page for someone to ignore this and repeat the "Both sides were wrong. We don't know what happened. Noone does" stuff and for that same nonsense to come up in another thread as if this information isn't readily available for anyone who wants to know. For some reason the Spurs absolutely must've done something wrong cos poor Kawhi felt "unhappy".

[inDe_eD]

I need this salt Spurs fans, it's invigorating!

[Dennis 37]

Spoiler:

Good question. It's funny how all of a sudden he's now beloved by the masses, from the old school types to the hipsters. Only hardcore types seemed to think much of him before he screwed the Spurs, but now he's a hero.

No he wasnt. The revisionist history on this board is disgusting

2009 - 1st round exit and only won 1 game
2010 - 2nd round sweep
2011 - lost 1st round 2-4

That's 7 playoff wins in three years, horrible for the TD era. They lacked athleticism and that's why they tried with the failed Richard Jefferson experiment. Kawhi was the x factor that gave them athleticism and defense on the wing they been missing since Bruce Bowen left. By 2014 finals, Kawhi would not only be the main guy guarding Lebron but also spurs best scorer.

Injuries to the biggest 3 factored into this and it coincided with Duncan's knees being in their worst state until '16.

Of course Scumbag helped, but so did Duncan re-emerging, Splitter, Green, Diaw, Mills.

Scumbag was a souped up version of Bowen until '15. In the biggest of moments of the '14 playoffs, it was the biggest 3 doing the heavy lifting, while he stood in the corner.

The Finals MVP was basically a nod to James' greatness. It should be playoffs MVP and it should have been Duncan, with Ginobili second.

It clearly went to his head and now the masses, who first decided it was Pop's magical system that was the reason for their success, have pulled a double revisionist history and decided he pulled an '03 Duncan. Disgusting.

Probably because he’s generally humble and operates with integrity.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It's not like Kawhi is ring chasing...he has already proven himself so I guess most people will give him some slack when it comes to colluding because it's the first time he's done it...Lebron gets so much hate because he does it every season it seems like. It's been 3 different teams now where he's colluded to build his team (Heat, Cavs, now the Lakers).

He demanded that a top 10ish player be acquired before he joined an already good team.

The only thing he's proven is that he's one of the luckiest players in history. He walks into the league on a dynasty, wins a championship in '14 as a role player, then another in '19 on a team that only existed because he intentionally tanked his value, Gasol to the Hornets fell apart on the 1 yard line and the Warriors were decimated by injury. In '15 and '16, he fell flat on his face and in '17, he decided to quit and take a year and a half off.

Toronto fans don't hate Kawhi. We hate the system which allows such shenanigans to occur. The league should have a rule that would have stopped the Paul George trade. Sign a major free agent, then you have to wait a year to make a trade for a tier one star. None of this "come with me" bull. Kawhi could have waited a year.

But you loved that same system that allowed the puke to intentionally tank his value so that he'd end up on your team for cents on the dollar, right? It was fine then.

You have a different lens. Raptor fans are well aware of what it means to tank one's trade value. San Antonio got quality return on Kawhi. Equal value? Probably not, but quality return? Definitely. Demar Derozan isn't cents on the dollar. He's at least 75 cents, and Jakob will be a very solid player for a decade. Danny Green isn't going to be solid for ten more years. The value of the pick you got an probably can not yet be evaluated, but its still a pick. Vince Carter "Netted" the Raptors about 10 cents. There has never been a player who lowered their trade value more than Vince Carter. One could argue that Kawhi was hurt as I highly doubt that he sat 17 games to cover for a faked rehabilitation. No one claimed VC was hurt, they just thought he might be done.

Having said that, Carter never arranged for another Tier 1 star to demand a trade to join him on the Nets. That's the behavior the league could have control over if they so choose.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Spoiler:

Good question. It's funny how all of a sudden he's now beloved by the masses, from the old school types to the hipsters. Only hardcore types seemed to think much of him before he screwed the Spurs, but now he's a hero.

2009 - 1st round exit and only won 1 game
2010 - 2nd round sweep
2011 - lost 1st round 2-4

That's 7 playoff wins in three years, horrible for the TD era. They lacked athleticism and that's why they tried with the failed Richard Jefferson experiment. Kawhi was the x factor that gave them athleticism and defense on the wing they been missing since Bruce Bowen left. By 2014 finals, Kawhi would not only be the main guy guarding Lebron but also spurs best scorer.

Injuries to the biggest 3 factored into this and it coincided with Duncan's knees being in their worst state until '16.

Of course Scumbag helped, but so did Duncan re-emerging, Splitter, Green, Diaw, Mills.

Scumbag was a souped up version of Bowen until '15. In the biggest of moments of the '14 playoffs, it was the biggest 3 doing the heavy lifting, while he stood in the corner.

The Finals MVP was basically a nod to James' greatness. It should be playoffs MVP and it should have been Duncan, with Ginobili second.

It clearly went to his head and now the masses, who first decided it was Pop's magical system that was the reason for their success, have pulled a double revisionist history and decided he pulled an '03 Duncan. Disgusting.

Probably because he’s generally humble and operates with integrity.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

It's not like Kawhi is ring chasing...he has already proven himself so I guess most people will give him some slack when it comes to colluding because it's the first time he's done it...Lebron gets so much hate because he does it every season it seems like. It's been 3 different teams now where he's colluded to build his team (Heat, Cavs, now the Lakers).

He demanded that a top 10ish player be acquired before he joined an already good team.

The only thing he's proven is that he's one of the luckiest players in history. He walks into the league on a dynasty, wins a championship in '14 as a role player, then another in '19 on a team that only existed because he intentionally tanked his value, Gasol to the Hornets fell apart on the 1 yard line and the Warriors were decimated by injury. In '15 and '16, he fell flat on his face and in '17, he decided to quit and take a year and a half off.

Toronto fans don't hate Kawhi. We hate the system which allows such shenanigans to occur. The league should have a rule that would have stopped the Paul George trade. Sign a major free agent, then you have to wait a year to make a trade for a tier one star. None of this "come with me" bull. Kawhi could have waited a year.

But you loved that same system that allowed the puke to intentionally tank his value so that he'd end up on your team for cents on the dollar, right? It was fine then.

You have a different lens. Raptor fans are well aware of what it means to tank one's trade value. San Antonio got quality return on Kawhi. Equal value? Probably not, but quality return? Definitely. Demar Derozan isn't cents on the dollar. He's at least 75 cents, and Jakob will be a very solid player for a decade. Danny Green isn't going to be solid for ten more years. The value of the pick you got an probably can not yet be evaluated, but its still a pick. Vince Carter "Netted" the Raptors about 10 cents. There has never been a player who lowered their trade value more than Vince Carter. One could argue that Kawhi was hurt as I highly doubt that he sat 17 games to cover for a faked rehabilitation. No one claimed VC was hurt, they just thought he might be done.

Having said that, Carter never arranged for another Tier 1 star to demand a trade to join him on the Nets. That's the behavior the league could have control over if they so choose.

Let's not oversell DD here. It's 50 cents at best. With Poeltl it's still way better return than we got for Carter. Like, not comparable or even in the same realm. The Nets got a prime star for a player with a health issue who wouldn't play for them, two scrubs, and a middling pick. And VC is worse than Kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Holy **** did I read that Tim Duncan "wanted touches"? That's some flat earth level stuff.

Everyone can have an opinion but there's gotta be a penalty for saying things like this. Could be extreme ignorance or blatant lying, but deserving of ridicule either way.

Every player as great as Tim Duncan has an ego, whether you want to believe it or not. Duncan even wanted to form a super team in Orlando during the early 2000's.

2015 Duncan still wanted to be a huge part of the offense, its your instincts when you were that great of a player no matter how old you are. By 2016 Duncan finally became a role player and he retired.

[Baski]

Holy **** did I read that Tim Duncan "wanted touches"? That's some flat earth level stuff.

Everyone can have an opinion but there's gotta be a penalty for saying things like this. Could be extreme ignorance or blatant lying, but deserving of ridicule either way.

Every player as great as Tim Duncan has an ego, whether you want to believe it or not. Duncan even wanted to form a super team in Orlando during the early 2000's.

2015 Duncan still wanted to be a huge part of the offense, its your instincts when you were that great of a player no matter how old you are. By 2016 Duncan finally became a role player and he retired.

Ok

[TheAlchemist]

As a Raptor fan I only wish Kawhi the best and will be cheering for him and his team.

He is and will always be my favorite player in the league.

I just wish the Clips didnt have to pull some scumbag moves by stalking Kawhi last season, but it's bygones now.

And speaking of bygones, leave the coluding stuff for the past.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

As somebody else said, he's built a persona and it's hard to shake a first impression. It's the same reason why, in spite of everything pointing to Kawhi and his uncle having long had intentions to leave and successfully engineering their escape,
some people continue to peddle the "both sides were wrong" narrative with respect to his breakup with the Spurs. It's just hard to accept that our good old quiet humble robotic hero who stood up to the ultimate douche could be an ultimate douche himself

How is Leonard the ultimate douche? He's a quiet guy who never starts any trouble. Irrational statements based off bitter 45 win seasons I guess

Spurs don't own Leonard for life just because they drafted him.

[Bornstellar]

Can someone explain whats wrong with "colluding" ? I'm not a fan of the NBA becoming less competitive but Leonard just wanted to play at home with a fellow great player. He didn't stack the deck like Bron did with Miami or Durant did with Golden State.

The league is probably at it's most wide open its been in years.

Rockets
Bucks
Philly
Lakers
Clippers
Nuggets/Blazers

All have a shot at getting to the finals

Leonard has paid his dues to the Spurs and Raptors. He gave them the ultimate prize and when it was time to leave, he left.

Spurs fans are understandably unhappy but get over it. He was a crucial part of winning you a championship. And for all the posters attempting to portray Leonard as just a cog in the wheel that won that title, why are you so vitriolic if he was so unimportant? I can't imagine being too upset if Kris Dunn of the Bulls asked for a trade to his homestate team.

Furthermore, answer this; If the Spurs decided to trade Leonard against his wishes for Doncic and KP, would you have the same angst directed towards the Spurs GM? Why is it so utterly dreadful for a player to request a trade to another team after paying his dues, but so fine if the team trades them mid-contract for an upgrade? Why can't players ever upgrade?

"bu- but he led the team on by lying about his injury!"

There's zero evidence that he was healthy and painfree. This is evidenced by his constant rest days with the Raptors and how quickly his body was breaking down during the postseason.
Even if you believe he lied about his injury and sat out the entire season out of protest, okay fine, that's the worst thing Leonard has done.

Raptors fans have absolutely zero reason to hate him. He came, he conquered, he left. Your team wasn't winning anything, ever without someone like him. Chuckrozan wasn't winning you anything. You guys need to retire his jersey. Not only did you guys win a Title but you beat literally the greatest team ever assembled (with some key injuries), it's one of the great post season runs in NBA history and it's all because of Leonard.

I'm sorry but who are you, and why do any Spurs fans who watched Leonard play for 6 years before he quit on have to justify our feelings on the situation? Oh right, we don't.

[Baski]

As somebody else said, he's built a persona and it's hard to shake a first impression. It's the same reason why, in spite of everything pointing to Kawhi and his uncle having long had intentions to leave and successfully engineering their escape,
some people continue to peddle the "both sides were wrong" narrative with respect to his breakup with the Spurs. It's just hard to accept that our good old quiet humble robotic hero who stood up to the ultimate douche could be an ultimate douche himself

How is Leonard the ultimate douche? He's a quiet guy who never starts any trouble. Irrational statements based off bitter 45 win seasons I guess

Spurs don't own Leonard for life just because they drafted him.

1. Learn to understand the context of one's words
2. Ok

[21 TD]

You have a different lens. Raptor fans are well aware of what it means to tank one's trade value. San Antonio got quality return on Kawhi. Equal value? Probably not, but quality return? Definitely. Demar Derozan isn't cents on the dollar. He's at least 75 cents, and Jakob will be a very solid player for a decade. Danny Green isn't going to be solid for ten more years. The value of the pick you got an probably can not yet be evaluated, but its still a pick. Vince Carter "Netted" the Raptors about 10 cents. There has never been a player who lowered their trade value more than Vince Carter. One could argue that Kawhi was hurt as I highly doubt that he sat 17 games to cover for a faked rehabilitation. No one claimed VC was hurt, they just thought he might be done.

Having said that, Carter never arranged for another Tier 1 star to demand a trade to join him on the Nets. That's the behavior the league could have control over if they so choose.

At referring to it as a "quality return", thinking DeRozan is "at least 75 cents", that Scumbag didn't exaggerate his injury and ultimately quit or that Carter did more to intentionally hurt his trade value.

Had Scumbag operated with a degree of professionalism, what constituted a "quality return" would have been at least what the Pelicans received for Davis.

Who "thought Carter might be done"? He was 27 and didn't suffer any injury, let alone a significant one.

Let's not oversell DD here. It's 50 cents at best. With Poeltl it's still way better return than we got for Carter. Like, not comparable or even in the same realm. The Nets got a prime star for a player with a health issue who wouldn't play for them, two scrubs, and a middling pick. And VC is worse than Kawhi.

Like you said, Carter was never as good as Scumbag. In addition, DeRozan is not a legit star and the basketball world quickly found out what the Spurs and their fans long knew, which was that Scumbag's health issue was overblown and really just an excuse to get to L.A. so that his profile could be commensurate with his caliber of play.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Like you said, Carter was never as good as Scumbag. In addition, DeRozan is not a legit star and the basketball world quickly found out what the Spurs and their fans long knew, which was that Scumbag's health issue was overblown and really just an excuse to get to L.A. so that his profile could be commensurate with his caliber of play.

You're wrong about Kawhi's health. He was visibly struggling at times, he couldn't consistently turn it on even in the playoffs and suffered increasing nagging injuries, and it's not like he was healthy before that debacle anyway. It wasn't just Pop resting him. He's a bit fragile.

[21 TD]

You're wrong about Kawhi's health. He was visibly struggling at times, he couldn't consistently turn it on even in the playoffs and suffered increasing nagging injuries, and it's not like he was healthy before that debacle anyway. It wasn't just Pop resting him. He's a bit fragile.

I clearly meant in '17-'18. Even though it was obvious before, his sleazebag uncle essentially confirmed it by stating that he was healthy the day after they leaked their trade request through their pawns in the media.

[XxIronChainzxX]

You're wrong about Kawhi's health. He was visibly struggling at times, he couldn't consistently turn it on even in the playoffs and suffered increasing nagging injuries, and it's not like he was healthy before that debacle anyway. It wasn't just Pop resting him. He's a bit fragile.

I clearly meant in '17-'18. Even though it was obvious before, his sleazebag uncle essentially confirmed it by stating that he was healthy the day after they leaked their trade request through their pawns in the media.

Healthy is relative. He may have been physically able to play some games, but he didn't look fully ready after an off-season of prep time. Don't really think he'd have had the full impact you expect. Anyways, I'm not denying he's a total malcontent. I'm just saying that I think you're overrating his health and I think if the Clippers don't load manage him they'll blow their title shot.

[G R E Y]

Spoiler:

Cause he obviously became the teams best player after the 2014 season

To add to that, it's not that he left, it's HOW they went about it.

Which bring me to the periodic addressing of falsehoods that reappear now and again. As to the italicized part, for the umpteenth time, the Spurs diagnosed him with the more severe injury, repeatedly tried to shelve #2 for the season but THEY refused, this after repeatedly telling the team he was ready to go and then at the last minute backing out. This is AFTER they kept the team in the dark about his medical progress / issues, this AFTER #2 started ghosting team representatives (August, 2017) BEFORE any medical disagreements between the two sides surfaced.

Don't minimize sitting out for an entire season or justify it with 'out of protest' - it was unprofessional.

If uncle had been honest, he would not have declared #2 "100% healthy" conveniently around the time just before the 2018 draft. As it stands, all that rest the quad and knee needed vindicated the Spurs and the chronic condition they all along said he had. Spurs knew it; THEY knew it; then Raptors and the rest of the NBA knew it.

Somehow this almost always gets lost in discussion about #2 ending up in LA, but it needs repeating: 2016 is a crux year, the year when Elfus was let go (and if I recall, the lawsuit over unpaid fees owed to him is still pending, in which he also alleges that uncle and mom were being paid by the agency) and uncle took over. Agency was bleeding money, agency was infused with cash by a billionaire, billionaire put his son as manager of agency, son and uncle concocted a plan to get #2 in a bigger market. This has been central despite all the multiple narratives that were put out.

Just get the facts right. These were researched and written about by Michael C. Wright & Ramona and if memory serves, Woj, in addition to several Spurs sports writers closely following the events throughout the whole thing.

Anyway, there are now two franchises that, despite on court play, are glad to be done with the group. That is revealing in terms of the machinations that were swirling behind the scenes of which we are getting but glimpses.

As to the topic at hand, I'd be shocked if the NBA actually censured a player, and I'm not sure if they can do so for a player's representatives outside of an agent (maybe that can be something addressed in the new rules or CBA or something or the like). The only time I recall that a player was directly reprimanded was AD being fined $50K last season for publicly demanding a trade.

As with every thread where you make this clarification for those ignorant to what actually happened, it'll only take 1 page for someone to ignore this and repeat the "Both sides were wrong. We don't know what happened. Noone does" stuff and for that same nonsense to come up in another thread as if this information isn't readily available for anyone who wants to know. For some reason the Spurs absolutely must've done something wrong cos poor Kawhi felt "unhappy".

Hey Baski, yeah it's that cycle, but not everyone followed all the details as it didn't pertain to their team, and so these still get perpetuated now and again. The fallacy of 'both sides were wrong' is that it implies each side was equally culpable, and leaves the research presented unexamined. We don't know everything, and RC said he wished things were done / turned out differently (words to that effect), but what we do know now stands with time.

The good thing is that it doesn't need to be reiterated nearly as often. Whereas all the info in print was previously not believed so readily, their own pattern of behaviour outed them and far more people see it for what it was with the Spurs.

Fast forward, I think, for instance, that allegations of recruiting Butler while playing against him in the playoffs are damning, but the NBA has a fine balance to maintain between adherence to rules and maintaining good relationships with the players. But there's always a first, and unless an example is made, the gamble will be worth the bad rep. It'll be interesting to see how the new stricter rules affect tampering.