If Lebron is the GOAT then how did he allow younger star players to catch him in rings already in his era?

[alienpick]

If KD played against the Raptors they would have more rings than him and KD would have the same amount of rings as him.

Uh, did you just assume the Raptors would have lost? Didn't the Raps beat Golden State w KD twice that year already?

[mowcrowbar]

Kobe?! He eclipsed kobe half a decade ago.

[WICKED17]

I would say, LeBron is the greatest over hyped , over excused , over etc,etc, of all time... while still being an all time great. GOAT talk as to him is laughable, uninformed, and utterly clueless, and pathetic to those who are unbiased and actually were old enough while following the league during the 80s and 90s. LeBron fanboys don’t really realize how ridiculous they come off to people who have a much greater big picture view, that they simply due to age, can not possess!

It’s really that simple and far more importantly true. MJ is GOAT, and Bron and the rest are indeed a tier below

[Run DLC]

LeBron isn’t the goat and Imo he doesn’t have a chance to become the goat, but I’d say he’ll be the clear cut favorite to be No.2 all time on mostly everyone’s list when he’s done playing.

[DimesandKnicks]

I would say, LeBron is the greatest over hyped , over excused , over etc,etc, of all time... while still being an all time great. GOAT talk as to him is laughable, uninformed, and utterly clueless, and pathetic to those who are unbiased and actually were old enough while following the league during the 80s and 90s. LeBron fanboys don’t really realize how ridiculous they come off to people who have a much greater big picture view, that they simply due to age, can not possess!

It’s really that simple and far more importantly true. MJ is GOAT, and Bron and the rest are indeed a tier below

I don't think it's ridiculous at all but MJ is better. It really comes down to what people value more. The ability to put the ball in the basket or the ability to get easy baskets for ones teammates.

[TurinTurambar]

What a strange thread... Shaq counts as 2 stars? Really? Like in what universe can that be justified?

I don't really know how anyone has the patience for more "Kobe Vs. LeBron" stuff in 2019, but I have noticed that any time Kobe gets brought up on this forum, it isn't long before it gets mentioned that he had Shaq for 3 championship runs, which isn't all that impressive considering anyone could win playing with Shaq.

Shaq only won one championship without Kobe. I guess it wasn't actually that easy...

As for LeBron, his place in history is solidified. He's a top 10 guy all-time at minimum, and people aren't likely to face much resistance for putting him in their top 5. Attempts to discredit his legacy like this are arbitrary and have the depth of a puddle.

Shaq was too young during MJs prime, then an old broken man. No one denies Kobe's a top 15/20 guy, and any of those players would win 3 with Shaq. Or more.

Which players would win 3 or more with Shaq in that era?

Penny didn't do it. Wade didn't do it. Shaq wasn't too young to get to a Finals with Penny, though, and he wasn't too old to win one championship with Wade...

The only All-Time caliber guy that did do it is Kobe, and on this forum that accomplishment is under constant attempts to marginalize.

If you just don't like Kobe, that's fine. People are free to like or not like whomever they wan. The issue comes when one tries to slap a veneer of objectivity on the face of something that is anything but.

[XxIronChainzxX]

What a strange thread... Shaq counts as 2 stars? Really? Like in what universe can that be justified?

I don't really know how anyone has the patience for more "Kobe Vs. LeBron" stuff in 2019, but I have noticed that any time Kobe gets brought up on this forum, it isn't long before it gets mentioned that he had Shaq for 3 championship runs, which isn't all that impressive considering anyone could win playing with Shaq.

Shaq only won one championship without Kobe. I guess it wasn't actually that easy...

As for LeBron, his place in history is solidified. He's a top 10 guy all-time at minimum, and people aren't likely to face much resistance for putting him in their top 5. Attempts to discredit his legacy like this are arbitrary and have the depth of a puddle.

Shaq was too young during MJs prime, then an old broken man. No one denies Kobe's a top 15/20 guy, and any of those players would win 3 with Shaq. Or more.

Which players would win 3 or more with Shaq in that era?

Penny didn't do it. Wade didn't do it. Shaq wasn't too young to get to a Finals with Penny, though, and he wasn't too old to win one championship with Wade...

The only All-Time caliber guy that did do it is Kobe, and on this forum that accomplishment is under constant attempts to marginalize.

If you just don't like Kobe, that's fine. People are free to like or not like whomever they wan. The issue comes when one tries to slap a veneer of objectivity on the face of something that is anything but.

I was pretty clear about the caliber of playing I'm talking about: top 15 all time. That means we're taking about guys like (on the obvious end) LeBron and Jordan and (on the lower end) KG, Dirk, KD/Curry (eventually) and so on.

It's not a slap in the face to Kobe to compare him to those guys, and it's ridiculous to talk about how Wade couldn't win with Shaq when he literally won with Shaq.

Kobe had one of the most humiliating Finals upsets with Shaq, so I wouldn't exactly trash Penny for getting crushed in the Finals.

This isn't about hating on Kobe. He's clearly one of the 15 best guys who played bball all time.

No one is trying to marginalize his achivements. The problem are his stans that try to use a threepeat with Shaq to elevate him above other incredible all time greats. You write up a list of the top 15 all time, and you tell me how those guys would fall to threepeat with Shaq.

Let's start with MJ and LeBron.

[TurinTurambar]

Shaq was too young during MJs prime, then an old broken man. No one denies Kobe's a top 15/20 guy, and any of those players would win 3 with Shaq. Or more.

Which players would win 3 or more with Shaq in that era?

Penny didn't do it. Wade didn't do it. Shaq wasn't too young to get to a Finals with Penny, though, and he wasn't too old to win one championship with Wade...

The only All-Time caliber guy that did do it is Kobe, and on this forum that accomplishment is under constant attempts to marginalize.

If you just don't like Kobe, that's fine. People are free to like or not like whomever they wan. The issue comes when one tries to slap a veneer of objectivity on the face of something that is anything but.

I was pretty clear about the caliber of playing I'm talking about: top 15 all time. That means we're taking about guys like (on the obvious end) LeBron and Jordan and (on the lower end) KG, Dirk, KD/Curry (eventually) and so on.

It's not a slap in the face to Kobe to compare him to those guys, and it's ridiculous to talk about how Wade couldn't win with Shaq when he literally won with Shaq.

Kobe had one of the most humiliating Finals upsets with Shaq, so I wouldn't exactly trash Penny for getting crushed in the Finals.

This isn't about hating on Kobe. He's clearly one of the 15 best guys who played bball all time.

No one is trying to marginalize his achivements. The problem are his stans that try to use a threepeat with Shaq to elevate him above other incredible all time greats. You write up a list of the top 15 all time, and you tell me how those guys would fall to threepeat with Shaq.

Let's start with MJ and LeBron.

To be clear, I'm not trashing anyone. Penny is an all-time fave, Wade is one of the very very best at his position ever, and those guys deserve respect.

I think it's pretty pointless to start falling through the rabbit hole of, "What would Player X have done with Shaq?" There's a reason I limited my examples to guys who actually played with Shaq, after all. My point was simple: Other all-time great players played with Shaq, both before and after his tenure with the Lakers, and the only guy who won consistently with him was Kobe. The best Shaq could do with Penny is one Finals appearance, and the best he could do with Wade is one championship. There's obviously other factors at play here, but considering how reductive these conversations get, this is a point that shouldn't be lost in it.

I also think Kobe should be compared to other top ten all-time players, because I think he's a top ten all-time player (back half, like 8-9-10 range). I just think its funny the lengths people will go to to essentially say that Kobe's first three championships are effectively meaningless.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Which players would win 3 or more with Shaq in that era?

Penny didn't do it. Wade didn't do it. Shaq wasn't too young to get to a Finals with Penny, though, and he wasn't too old to win one championship with Wade...

The only All-Time caliber guy that did do it is Kobe, and on this forum that accomplishment is under constant attempts to marginalize.

If you just don't like Kobe, that's fine. People are free to like or not like whomever they wan. The issue comes when one tries to slap a veneer of objectivity on the face of something that is anything but.

I was pretty clear about the caliber of playing I'm talking about: top 15 all time. That means we're taking about guys like (on the obvious end) LeBron and Jordan and (on the lower end) KG, Dirk, KD/Curry (eventually) and so on.

It's not a slap in the face to Kobe to compare him to those guys, and it's ridiculous to talk about how Wade couldn't win with Shaq when he literally won with Shaq.

Kobe had one of the most humiliating Finals upsets with Shaq, so I wouldn't exactly trash Penny for getting crushed in the Finals.

This isn't about hating on Kobe. He's clearly one of the 15 best guys who played bball all time.

No one is trying to marginalize his achivements. The problem are his stans that try to use a threepeat with Shaq to elevate him above other incredible all time greats. You write up a list of the top 15 all time, and you tell me how those guys would fall to threepeat with Shaq.

Let's start with MJ and LeBron.

To be clear, I'm not trashing anyone. Penny is an all-time fave, Wade is one of the very very best at his position ever, and those guys deserve respect.

I think it's pretty pointless to start falling through the rabbit hole of, "What would Player X have done with Shaq?" There's a reason I limited my examples to guys who actually played with Shaq, after all. My point was simple: Other all-time great players played with Shaq, both before and after his tenure with the Lakers, and the only guy who won consistently with him was Kobe. The best Shaq could do with Penny is one Finals appearance, and the best he could do with Wade is one championship. There's obviously other factors at play here, but considering how reductive these conversations get, this is a point that shouldn't be lost in it.

I also think Kobe should be compared to other top ten all-time players, because I think he's a top ten all-time player (back half, like 8-9-10 range). I just think its funny the lengths people will go to to essentially say that Kobe's first three championships are effectively meaningless.

Well, the big thing is that Shaq's entire prime came after he left Orlando and ended by the time he left LA. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. This is why I think it's pretty disingenuous to talk about what others "actually" achieved. It's like roasting Jordan for his Wizard years.

So your point isn't simple and it's inaccurate. It's also using guys who aren't as good as Kobe or his peers - so of course they wouldn't be able to do as well.

Kobe's not a top 10 all time guy. And when it comes to comparing him with those guys, including Shaq, the rings that he was Robin for don't count. Because the other guys on the list, minus Kareem for spurts and the wonky Wilt year, won as the #1 guy.

Kobe's got 2 titles as the man. That's impressive. It's IMO enough to get him past Dirk or KG. But when you get to the absolute greatest in NBA history, it's not enough. Even the back half with TD / Hakeem rather than the LeBron / MJ / Kareem tier, or Magic / Bird tier.

[DreamTeam09]

If you're the best player in the league by far then your peers shouldn't have the same or nearly the same accomplishments or even better accomplishments than you.

When Jordan learned to win, he didn't lose untill his organization didn't wanna pay him nemore. No1 ate when Jordan ate.

Kobe 3peat, then 2

Shaq 3peat, cut, won one with flash

LeBron well we know how that story played out, everyone ate during the LeBron era.

You gotta give LeBron that, he shared the wealth. Shared the money, shared the trophies

Sppken from a guy whose team got eliminated by LeBron in escalating embarrassing fashions three straight years and didn't accomplish anything until he left the conference

My other team, the Dallas Mavericks embrassesed him and did win the chip so it's whatever. My point remains same

[XxIronChainzxX]

If you're the best player in the league by far then your peers shouldn't have the same or nearly the same accomplishments or even better accomplishments than you.

When Jordan learned to win, he didn't lose untill his organization didn't wanna pay him nemore. No1 ate when Jordan ate.

Kobe 3peat, then 2

Shaq 3peat, cut, won one with flash

LeBron well we know how that story played out, everyone ate during the LeBron era.

You gotta give LeBron that, he shared the wealth. Shared the money, shared the trophies

Sppken from a guy whose team got eliminated by LeBron in escalating embarrassing fashions three straight years and didn't accomplish anything until he left the conference

My other team, the Dallas Mavericks embrassesed him and did win the chip so it's whatever. My point remains same

Kobe didn't threepeat anymore than Pippen threepeated. he did it twice even! You want to argue Pippen is better than KD because of that, feel free to die on that hill.

[TurinTurambar]

I was pretty clear about the caliber of playing I'm talking about: top 15 all time. That means we're taking about guys like (on the obvious end) LeBron and Jordan and (on the lower end) KG, Dirk, KD/Curry (eventually) and so on.

It's not a slap in the face to Kobe to compare him to those guys, and it's ridiculous to talk about how Wade couldn't win with Shaq when he literally won with Shaq.

Kobe had one of the most humiliating Finals upsets with Shaq, so I wouldn't exactly trash Penny for getting crushed in the Finals.

This isn't about hating on Kobe. He's clearly one of the 15 best guys who played bball all time.

No one is trying to marginalize his achivements. The problem are his stans that try to use a threepeat with Shaq to elevate him above other incredible all time greats. You write up a list of the top 15 all time, and you tell me how those guys would fall to threepeat with Shaq.

Let's start with MJ and LeBron.

To be clear, I'm not trashing anyone. Penny is an all-time fave, Wade is one of the very very best at his position ever, and those guys deserve respect.

I think it's pretty pointless to start falling through the rabbit hole of, "What would Player X have done with Shaq?" There's a reason I limited my examples to guys who actually played with Shaq, after all. My point was simple: Other all-time great players played with Shaq, both before and after his tenure with the Lakers, and the only guy who won consistently with him was Kobe. The best Shaq could do with Penny is one Finals appearance, and the best he could do with Wade is one championship. There's obviously other factors at play here, but considering how reductive these conversations get, this is a point that shouldn't be lost in it.

I also think Kobe should be compared to other top ten all-time players, because I think he's a top ten all-time player (back half, like 8-9-10 range). I just think its funny the lengths people will go to to essentially say that Kobe's first three championships are effectively meaningless.

Well, the big thing is that Shaq's entire prime came after he left Orlando and ended by the time he left LA. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. This is why I think it's pretty disingenuous to talk about what others "actually" achieved. It's like roasting Jordan for his Wizard years.

So your like isn't simple, it's inaccurate. It's also using guys who aren't as good as Kobe or his peers - so of course they wouldn't be able to do as well.

Kobe's not a top 10 all time guy. And when it comes to comparing him with those guys, including Shaq, the rings that he was Robin for don't count. Because the other guys on the list, minus Kareem for spurts and the wonky Wilt year, won as the #1 guy.

So... Does Shaq's Miami ring not count? Do LeBron's? Or Wade's? What about Steph's rings with KD?

You're of course entitled to whatever opinion you want, and it doesn't matter whether I agree with any of it, but this seems really arbitrary, especially considering the fact that Kobe was more "Nightwing" than "Robin" from a production standpoint after 2000 (More of an alternate first option than a clear cut second option, for the non comic book nerds reading).

[XxIronChainzxX]

To be clear, I'm not trashing anyone. Penny is an all-time fave, Wade is one of the very very best at his position ever, and those guys deserve respect.

I think it's pretty pointless to start falling through the rabbit hole of, "What would Player X have done with Shaq?" There's a reason I limited my examples to guys who actually played with Shaq, after all. My point was simple: Other all-time great players played with Shaq, both before and after his tenure with the Lakers, and the only guy who won consistently with him was Kobe. The best Shaq could do with Penny is one Finals appearance, and the best he could do with Wade is one championship. There's obviously other factors at play here, but considering how reductive these conversations get, this is a point that shouldn't be lost in it.

I also think Kobe should be compared to other top ten all-time players, because I think he's a top ten all-time player (back half, like 8-9-10 range). I just think its funny the lengths people will go to to essentially say that Kobe's first three championships are effectively meaningless.

Well, the big thing is that Shaq's entire prime came after he left Orlando and ended by the time he left LA. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. This is why I think it's pretty disingenuous to talk about what others "actually" achieved. It's like roasting Jordan for his Wizard years.

So your like isn't simple, it's inaccurate. It's also using guys who aren't as good as Kobe or his peers - so of course they wouldn't be able to do as well.

Kobe's not a top 10 all time guy. And when it comes to comparing him with those guys, including Shaq, the rings that he was Robin for don't count. Because the other guys on the list, minus Kareem for spurts and the wonky Wilt year, won as the #1 guy.

So... Does Shaq's Miami ring not count? Do LeBron's? Or Wade's? What about Steph's rings with KD?

You're of course entitled to whatever opinion you want, and it doesn't matter whether I agree with any of it, but this seems really arbitrary, especially considering the fact that Kobe was more "Nightwing" than "Robin" from a production standpoint after 2000 (More of an alternates first option than a clear cut second option, for the non comic book nerds reading).

"Not count" is a bit too strong because it's a too general. As I said: it's about what you're comparing it to that matters. If we're talking about, generally, vs. all players ever, it counts a great deal. The number of players who could do what Kobe did are give is an incredibly small group: 15-16 or so other people who have ever lived. That's counting them for a lot. This is a incredible achievement - Kobe is going to be an enduring legend in NBA history for generations.

But when you turn to that top 10, or top 5, it doesn't "count" because it falls below the baseline threshold of what the other guys did.

So, in that sense, yeah, Shaq's 4th ring is not really what gets him into the top 10. Same with Kobe's 3.

Also, I find the Nightwing reference funny. Because he's still Batman's sidekick when they're together, he just needs to escape to a different city to strike out his own legacy. He's just a moodier adult Robin. I think it's a great analogy for Kobe, but I'm not sure we'd agree on the reason for it. He's also always that tier 2 guy who's never really on the Justice League (because Batman is there).

[DreamTeam09]

Sppken from a guy whose team got eliminated by LeBron in escalating embarrassing fashions three straight years and didn't accomplish anything until he left the conference

My other team, the Dallas Mavericks embrassesed him and did win the chip so it's whatever. My point remains same

Kobe didn't threepeat anymore than Pippen threepeated. he did it twice even! You want to argue Pippen is better than KD because of that, feel free to die on that hill.

Pippen didn't go on to repeat after Jordon left in your scenario tho

[XxIronChainzxX]

My other team, the Dallas Mavericks embrassesed him and did win the chip so it's whatever. My point remains same

Kobe didn't threepeat anymore than Pippen threepeated. he did it twice even! You want to argue Pippen is better than KD because of that, feel free to die on that hill.

Pippen didn't go on to repeat after Jordon left in your scenario tho

Sure, but he threepeated twice. He's got 6 rings. KDs got 2. If you don't account for role, impact outside of that, etc, you end up with this kind of wonky result - where a HOF guy gets credit for the achivements of the guy who's clearly better.

[gpoon]

He allowed younger star players like Steph and Klay to catch him in rings and they are younger. If KD played against the Raptors they would have more rings than him and KD would have the same amount of rings as him.

This is why Lebron will never be in the same tier as Kobe and MJ. MJ went 6-0 in the Finals and Kobe went 5-2 in the Finals. Kobe would never allow younger star players to catch him in rings in his era. Same with MJ.

How can you be the GOAT when younger star players catch you in rings basically forming a dynasty in your era? Let’s not forget Dirk getting a ring in his era and he lost to a bum like Dwight Howard in 2009. Lakers manhandled that same Magic team.

Unless Lebron wins another ring you can’t put him in the same tier as lethal offense players like Kobe and MJ.

If Kyrie and Love played in 2015... Lebron would have more rings than steph and klay.... you can so if this if that all day long lol

[Joerezz7]

Is this seriously the GOAT?

Last minute of a 1 possession game in the Finals. Has Steph on an island. Clear path to the rim.

Instead of driving it on Curry, shooting over Curry, or posting Curry up...he decides to pass it to Tristan Thompson who is being guarded by DPOY Draymond Green.

Even worse, on the next possession, wants no part of guarding KD. Will let Rodney Hood who is in his first playoffs, guard the greatest scorer in the game.

But hey Lebron had a high PER so it’s all good

Watch on YouTube

I remember this game but after watching this again you can see who has killer instinct and who doesn’t.

Lebron who people consider the GOAT, has Steph Curry on him and decides to pass the ball. Right after that play KD went directly at him. Lebron let Rodney Hood guard him instead. Probably because he was tired of KD banging shots in his face. KD is a beast

[NeutralObserver]

Is this seriously the GOAT?

Last minute of a 1 possession game in the Finals. Has Steph on an island. Clear path to the rim.

Instead of driving it on Curry, shooting over Curry, or posting Curry up...he decides to pass it to Tristan Thompson who is being guarded by DPOY Draymond Green.

Even worse, on the next possession, wants no part of guarding KD. Will let Rodney Hood who is in his first playoffs, guard the greatest scorer in the game.

But hey Lebron had a high PER so it’s all good

Watch on YouTube

I remember this game but after watching this again you can see who has killer instinct and who doesn’t.

Lebron who people consider the GOAT, has Steph Curry on him and decides to pass the ball. Right after that play KD went directly at him. Lebron let Rodney Hood guard him instead. Probably because he was tired of KD banging shots in his face. KD is a beast

I'll NEVER forget this shot. It's the shot that MADE Lebron try ot recruit KD all summer long, to no avail. Lebron probably switched conferences after this to avoid losing to KD, annually.

[DreamTeam09]

Kobe didn't threepeat anymore than Pippen threepeated. he did it twice even! You want to argue Pippen is better than KD because of that, feel free to die on that hill.

Pippen didn't go on to repeat after Jordon left in your scenario tho

Sure, but he threepeated twice. He's got 6 rings. KDs got 2. If you don't account for role, impact outside of that, etc, you end up with this kind of wonky result - where a HOF guy gets credit for the achivements of the guy who's clearly better.

So why is Durant ahead of Kobe, Kobe repeated as the main guy, Durant won two on a super stacked team

[XxIronChainzxX]

Pippen didn't go on to repeat after Jordon left in your scenario tho

Sure, but he threepeated twice. He's got 6 rings. KDs got 2. If you don't account for role, impact outside of that, etc, you end up with this kind of wonky result - where a HOF guy gets credit for the achivements of the guy who's clearly better.

So why is Durant ahead of Kobe, Kobe repeated as the main guy, Durant won two on a super stacked team

Sorry, I may be missing the thread of the conversation. KD isn't ahead of Kobe and doesn't have any chance of finishing his career ahead of him unless he comes back better than his own prime in NJ in his 30s post Achilles injury. IMO.