Chuma Okeke drafted #16 by the Orlando Magic

[ezzzp]

I guess my question is "How many years are people going to find the kick the can down the road plan for our draft picks acceptable?" These young guys are going to have to pay big dividends eventually, right?

Then again, what exactly do you guys expect from a 16th pick?

How are you defining "paying dividends?"

To me, paying dividends is a player carrying their team to a playoff berth, or at minimum being a top 2 piece for his playoff squad.

Putting up inflated stats on a tanking bottom feeder were stats take priority over wins is not "paying dividends" in my opinion.

What recently drafted players have paid dividends in their first contract? off the top of my head there aren't many....Tatum (3d pick), Simmons (1st pick), Mitchell (13th pick), Embiid (3d pick), DLo (2nd pick), Jokic (41st pick), Giannis (15th pick)...

[VFX]

I guess my question is "How many years are people going to find the kick the can down the road plan for our draft picks acceptable?" These young guys are going to have to pay big dividends eventually, right?

Then again, what exactly do you guys expect from a 16th pick?

How are you defining "paying dividends?"

To me, paying dividends is a player carrying their team to a playoff berth, or at minimum being a top 2 piece for his playoff squad.

Putting up inflated stats on a tanking bottom feeder were stats take priority over wins is not "paying dividends" in my opinion.

What recently drafted players have paid dividends in their first contract? off the top of my head there aren't many....Tatum (3d pick), Simmons (1st pick), Mitchell (13th pick), Embiid (3d pick), DLo (2nd pick), Jokic (41st pick), Giannis (15th pick)...

Playing significant, or starters, minutes and being an integral part of a roster/team. Yes, you listed guys that are first or second options on legitimate playoff teams. There is also a grey area to that. Trae Young, Doncic, SGA, Ayton, Kuzma, Markkanen, Fox, etc. are all immensely integral to their non-playoff teams without necessarily accomplishing a ton up to this point in their careers. That’s also just from two recent drafts. They also didn’t need a bunch of excuses to be considered highly projected players and positive assets to the future of their individual teams.

[ezzzp]

I guess my question is "How many years are people going to find the kick the can down the road plan for our draft picks acceptable?" These young guys are going to have to pay big dividends eventually, right?

Then again, what exactly do you guys expect from a 16th pick?

How are you defining "paying dividends?"

To me, paying dividends is a player carrying their team to a playoff berth, or at minimum being a top 2 piece for his playoff squad.

Putting up inflated stats on a tanking bottom feeder were stats take priority over wins is not "paying dividends" in my opinion.

What recently drafted players have paid dividends in their first contract? off the top of my head there aren't many....Tatum (3d pick), Simmons (1st pick), Mitchell (13th pick), Embiid (3d pick), DLo (2nd pick), Jokic (41st pick), Giannis (15th pick)...

Playing significant, or starters, minutes and being an integral part of a roster/team. Yes, you listed guys that are first or second options on legitimate playoff teams. There is also a grey area to that. Trae Young, Doncic, SGA, Ayton, Kuzma, Markkanen, Fox, etc. are all immensely integral to their non-playoff teams without necessarily accomplishing a ton up to this point in their careers. That’s also just from two recent drafts. They also didn’t need a bunch of excuses to be considered highly projected players and positive assets to the future of their individual teams.

Putting up empty bloated stats on a bottom dweller comes with an excuse. “It’s not their fault they are losing a ton of games,” when it most certainly is for some of those guys.

The Hawks had one of the worst defenses in years, the epitome of one-way losing bb. Young was at the core of that issue. He’s going to always have to be hidden behind elite defenders, of which Atlanta has none right now.

Suns were garbage...again. Another horrible defense and roster with bloated stats on bad team. Ayton has been bad defender since ncaa.

Kuzma hasn’t done anything except ineffective stat padding with poor defense on a big market bottom dweller. He was on Team USA camp because the NBA had to feed it’s biggest market - no way he deserved to get invite over numerous guys. Guys like Aaron Gordon.

[VFX]

How are you defining "paying dividends?"

To me, paying dividends is a player carrying their team to a playoff berth, or at minimum being a top 2 piece for his playoff squad.

Putting up inflated stats on a tanking bottom feeder were stats take priority over wins is not "paying dividends" in my opinion.

What recently drafted players have paid dividends in their first contract? off the top of my head there aren't many....Tatum (3d pick), Simmons (1st pick), Mitchell (13th pick), Embiid (3d pick), DLo (2nd pick), Jokic (41st pick), Giannis (15th pick)...

Playing significant, or starters, minutes and being an integral part of a roster/team. Yes, you listed guys that are first or second options on legitimate playoff teams. There is also a grey area to that. Trae Young, Doncic, SGA, Ayton, Kuzma, Markkanen, Fox, etc. are all immensely integral to their non-playoff teams without necessarily accomplishing a ton up to this point in their careers. That’s also just from two recent drafts. They also didn’t need a bunch of excuses to be considered highly projected players and positive assets to the future of their individual teams.

Putting up empty bloated stats on a bottom dweller comes with an excuse. “It’s not their fault they are losing a ton of games,” when it most certainly is for some of those guys.

The Hawks had one of the worst defenses in years, the epitome of one-way losing bb. Young was at the core of that issue. He’s going to always have to be hidden behind elite defenders, of which Atlanta has none right now.

Suns were garbage...again. Another horrible defense and roster with bloated stats on bad team. Ayton has been bad defender since ncaa.

Kuzma hasn’t done anything except ineffective stat padding with poor defense on a big market bottom dweller. He was on Team USA camp because the NBA had to feed it’s biggest market - no way he deserved to get invite over numerous guys. Guys like Aaron Gordon.

Basketball is a team sport. None of those guys were drafted to “good” teams. The ones you listed previously were drafted to decent teams, or they impacted their teams significantly to push them into contention in years 3-4.

The point I’m making is that those players have already solidified themselves as valuable pieces and building blocks for each of their teams moving forward. They have also seen the court enough for that distinction to be made...None of those guys in year 1 (even Giannis or Jokic) were singlehandedly pushing their team into contention or deep playoffs. Regardless, I saw no excuses for any of those guys other than the fact that rookies rarely have good productive seasons. Guess what? Most of those guys I listed still were productive despite having sub par “bottom dweller” teams.

It’s funny that out of the three examples you took issue with two were in the running for RoY and first team all rookie (yes despite their teams poor overall performance). That doesn’t mean they aren’t accurately being recognized by setting themselves apart from the rest. The other example greatly exceeded expectations for his draft position even though he’s a POS. And no he didn’t deserve to be on team USA over Gordon, but that distinction isn’t what I’m talking about at all.

[cedric76]

Hi everyone

Got some insider info, i met someone very close to dave spahn (chuma s agent) yesterday. We were talking about basketball and he gave me info about chuma.

The guy was legit, he showed me his business card.

During predraft, chuma s camp were told that their client would go late 1st or early 2nd

Orlando were not interested in a rookie for 2019 as they considered Mo as their 2019 rookie
Orlando wanted a draft and stach (as they ownership were not willing to go above luxury) and were considering trade down

Jeff was doing his due diligence and contacted chuma s agent and asked them if their client would consider red shirt if they d draft him at 16

Agent did the math

As a late 1st he d get 10M over 4 years
As an early 2nd, nothing is guaranteed

With a 16th pick they d be guaranteed 16M+ over 4 yrs

Agent couldn't risk to lose that much money if chuma dropped in the draft and end up a 2nd draft pick.

Agent said that they would agree to that.

Orlando never told them that they d draft him for sure so agent was pleasantly surprised when we drafted chuma

This answers all our questions :

Why chuma not taking salary this year?
Because his camp was very worried he d drop in the 2nd round

Why reaching for chuma?
We couldn't afford a rookie salary and wanted to go for draft and stash

Why not trade down to draft chuma?
Scared that someone would pick him late 1st


All in all, orlando liked chuma and didn't want a rookie this year.

Well played weham even if i think that we could have trade down and get him. I do not believe that someone behind us wanted him as bad as us.
It s great to see our management thinking out of the box

couple of things. Only 2 years of a rookie deal are guaranteed, so that total wasnt really "guaranteed". Also, everyone knew Chuma would go late 1st, early 2nd, He was projected as a lottery pick before his injury. Think a lot is just revisionist history by the front office. If they arent picking very high, they act like late picks dont matter. Like a couple of years ago when they traded 25th and later 2nds because the "draft flattened out" after pick 21. i think you are crediting our FO too much

Bamba and fultz are our 2 rookies this year so i understand why orlando wanted a draft and stash

I think that move was clever

[pepe1991]

Since i joined forum it was always the case, overprotection of rookies and treating young players lke toddlers, while having unrealistic expetations of role players and treating them as "foes" and people who "steal spotlight from young guys".

[Ducklett]

It’s what has become expected of the young guys in Orlando. People will keep giving them excuses to them until they run out. Bamba and Chuma are already geared for 4-6 years of excuses given the fact they won’t get significant playing time, barring big changes to the roster. That doesn’t even take into account injury history.

I think we have seen that late bloomers are a thing nowadays. A lot of these guys don't start playing basketball until a year or two into high school. I am not saying that they need 6 years of excuses, but it seems to be a thing that these guys are coming on at 23-24 years old.

i wouldnt say a lot, i would say its very rare.

Of NBA players? I agree. Of all HS players? It is actually quite common depending on the school. I know I didn't play the high school sports I played until junior or senior year except for tennis which I have played pretty much my whole life.

[tiderulz]

I think we have seen that late bloomers are a thing nowadays. A lot of these guys don't start playing basketball until a year or two into high school. I am not saying that they need 6 years of excuses, but it seems to be a thing that these guys are coming on at 23-24 years old.

i wouldnt say a lot, i would say its very rare.

Of NBA players? I agree. Of all HS players? It is actually quite common depending on the school. I know I didn't play the high school sports I played until junior or senior year except for tennis which I have played pretty much my whole life.

well why would we be talking about non-NBA players here.

[ezzzp]

Playing significant, or starters, minutes and being an integral part of a roster/team. Yes, you listed guys that are first or second options on legitimate playoff teams. There is also a grey area to that. Trae Young, Doncic, SGA, Ayton, Kuzma, Markkanen, Fox, etc. are all immensely integral to their non-playoff teams without necessarily accomplishing a ton up to this point in their careers. That’s also just from two recent drafts. They also didn’t need a bunch of excuses to be considered highly projected players and positive assets to the future of their individual teams.

Putting up empty bloated stats on a bottom dweller comes with an excuse. “It’s not their fault they are losing a ton of games,” when it most certainly is for some of those guys.

The Hawks had one of the worst defenses in years, the epitome of one-way losing bb. Young was at the core of that issue. He’s going to always have to be hidden behind elite defenders, of which Atlanta has none right now.

Suns were garbage...again. Another horrible defense and roster with bloated stats on bad team. Ayton has been bad defender since ncaa.

Kuzma hasn’t done anything except ineffective stat padding with poor defense on a big market bottom dweller. He was on Team USA camp because the NBA had to feed it’s biggest market - no way he deserved to get invite over numerous guys. Guys like Aaron Gordon.

Basketball is a team sport. None of those guys were drafted to “good” teams. The ones you listed previously were drafted to decent teams, or they impacted their teams significantly to push them into contention in years 3-4.

The point I’m making is that those players have already solidified themselves as valuable pieces and building blocks for each of their teams moving forward. They have also seen the court enough for that distinction to be made...None of those guys in year 1 (even Giannis or Jokic) were singlehandedly pushing their team into contention or deep playoffs. Regardless, I saw no excuses for any of those guys other than the fact that rookies rarely have good productive seasons. Guess what? Most of those guys I listed still were productive despite having sub par “bottom dweller” teams.

It’s funny that out of the three examples you took issue with two were in the running for RoY and first team all rookie (yes despite their teams poor overall performance). That doesn’t mean they aren’t accurately being recognized by setting themselves apart from the rest. The other example greatly exceeded expectations for his draft position even though he’s a POS. And no he didn’t deserve to be on team USA over Gordon, but that distinction isn’t what I’m talking about at all.

That "drafted to bad team" has been "the its them, not me" excuse of stat padders/no defense guys on bad franchises forever.

Bad teams are usually bad franchises, there is a reason for that. Losing cultures sell tickets by pointing to hollow stats as hope by using terminology like "building blocks" and "potential."

Winning cultures sell competitive games and usually have just as much young "potential" and "building blocks." Teams like Boston, Utah, Denver, Miami, San Antonio etc continually stay solid and manage to always develop their youth (regardless of draft position) to win games, often developing them into stars or as assets that get those stars.

You're right, basketball is a team sport...which is exactly why the franchises who gift individual stats and allow bad defense find themselves as bottom feeders...often for years in a tank/bad development treadmill.

...and ROY is a random award that is often based on hype and market - not who'll be best player. MCW won ROY in Philadelphia (4th biggest market in North American sports) and he won it over slow gradual development of guys like Giannis, Rudy Gobert, Oladipo, CJ McCollum, Otto Porter and Steven Adams. Being 2-3d in voting or on All-Rookie, doesn't mean a whole lot as each class is different.

[VFX]

Putting up empty bloated stats on a bottom dweller comes with an excuse. “It’s not their fault they are losing a ton of games,” when it most certainly is for some of those guys.

The Hawks had one of the worst defenses in years, the epitome of one-way losing bb. Young was at the core of that issue. He’s going to always have to be hidden behind elite defenders, of which Atlanta has none right now.

Suns were garbage...again. Another horrible defense and roster with bloated stats on bad team. Ayton has been bad defender since ncaa.

Kuzma hasn’t done anything except ineffective stat padding with poor defense on a big market bottom dweller. He was on Team USA camp because the NBA had to feed it’s biggest market - no way he deserved to get invite over numerous guys. Guys like Aaron Gordon.

Basketball is a team sport. None of those guys were drafted to “good” teams. The ones you listed previously were drafted to decent teams, or they impacted their teams significantly to push them into contention in years 3-4.

The point I’m making is that those players have already solidified themselves as valuable pieces and building blocks for each of their teams moving forward. They have also seen the court enough for that distinction to be made...None of those guys in year 1 (even Giannis or Jokic) were singlehandedly pushing their team into contention or deep playoffs. Regardless, I saw no excuses for any of those guys other than the fact that rookies rarely have good productive seasons. Guess what? Most of those guys I listed still were productive despite having sub par “bottom dweller” teams.

It’s funny that out of the three examples you took issue with two were in the running for RoY and first team all rookie (yes despite their teams poor overall performance). That doesn’t mean they aren’t accurately being recognized by setting themselves apart from the rest. The other example greatly exceeded expectations for his draft position even though he’s a POS. And no he didn’t deserve to be on team USA over Gordon, but that distinction isn’t what I’m talking about at all.

That "drafted to bad team" has been "the its them, not me" excuse of stat padders/no defense guys on bad franchises forever.

Bad teams are usually bad franchises, there is a reason for that. Losing cultures sell tickets by pointing to hollow stats as hope by using terminology like "building blocks" and "potential."

Winning cultures sell competitive games and usually have just as much young "potential" and "building blocks." Teams like Boston, Utah, Denver, Miami, San Antonio etc continually stay solid and manage to always develop their youth (regardless of draft position) to win games, often developing them into stars or as assets that get those stars.

You're right, basketball is a team sport...which is exactly why the franchises who gift individual stats and allow bad defense find themselves as bottom feeders...often for years in a tank/bad development treadmill.

...and ROY is a random award that is often based on hype and market - not who'll be best player. MCW won ROY in Philadelphia (4th biggest market in North American sports) and he won it over slow gradual development of guys like Giannis, Rudy Gobert, Oladipo, CJ McCollum, Otto Porter and Steven Adams. Being 2-3d in voting or on All-Rookie, doesn't mean a whole lot as each class is different.

Usually the best (most hyped) players from the draft go in the top of the lottery to the worst teams because of how the draft has worked. They play significant minutes because they are usually more talented than the players they replace in most scenarios.

Yes, there are guys that fall outside of that top 10 that are overlooked and become something bigger. You simply can’t say that because these guys are drafted to those teams that it’s their “excuse” for putting up stats and earning accolades. Are you saying they aren’t as advertised because they happen to have the green light against nba competition? Doncic is universally heralded as a prodigy that is currently the face of the Mavericks. Are you saying because his team didn’t make the playoffs in the West he isn’t deserving of ROY? Argument doesn’t make sense. Do you consider him as putting up empty stats on a Dallas team that in your likely estimation was “tanking” last season?

Then again, you are the same person that believes any team with a sub .500 record is “tanking” so it’s not surprising you have these views.

[ezzzp]

Then again, you are the same person that believes any team with a sub .500 record is “tanking” so it’s not surprising you have these views.

What a dumb lie. Then again, you are the same person that believes that fantasy is the same as real NBA games...so its not surprising you keep making excuses for stat padders on terrible teams.

[ezzzp]

Since i joined forum it was always the case, overprotection of rookies and treating young players lke toddlers, while having unrealistic expetations of role players and treating them as "foes" and people who "steal spotlight from young guys".

Overprotection of rookies?

• Oladipo played 2500 minutes with team leading 24.4 USG as a rookie.

• Aaron Gordon fractured his foot before his rookie training camp, missing the first half of his rookie season...and then had to integrate into NBA/team system on the fly as a rookie.

• Elfrid Payton was handed starting PG role on golden platter as a rookie.

• Jonathan Isaac as a rookie: suffered ankle injury/setbacks his rookie season...only played 27 games

• Mo Bamba suffered season ending leg fracture in early January of his rookie season

The only rookie that kind of fits the "overprotection" description is Mario Hezonja, who was virtually unplayable because he was so unbelievably awful on defense and zero discipline on offense. Even with that, Skiles still played him 18mpg in 79 games.

[shadrock]

Since i joined forum it was always the case, overprotection of rookies and treating young players lke toddlers, while having unrealistic expetations of role players and treating them as "foes" and people who "steal spotlight from young guys".

Overprotection of rookies?

• Oladipo played 2500 minutes with team leading 24.4 USG as a rookie.

• Aaron Gordon fractured his foot before his rookie training camp, missing the first half of his rookie season...and then had to integrate into NBA/team system on the fly as a rookie.

• Elfrid Payton was handed starting PG role on golden platter as a rookie.

• Jonathan Isaac as a rookie: suffered ankle injury/setbacks his rookie season...only played 27 games

• Mo Bamba suffered season ending leg fracture in early January of his rookie season

The only rookie that kind of fits the "overprotection" description is Mario Hezonja, who was virtually unplayable because he was so unbelievably awful on defense and zero discipline on offense. Even with that, Skiles still played him 18mpg in 79 games.

I might be wrong, but im pretty sure he was referring to the rookies being seemingly unable to step a foot wrong, as opposed to physically protecting them from playtime/injury.

[SOUL]

There def were undeserving vets playing over guys.. Jeff Green, CJ Watson, Ben Gordon, Afflalo, etc.

[ezzzp]

Overprotection of rookies?

• Oladipo played 2500 minutes with team leading 24.4 USG as a rookie.

• Aaron Gordon fractured his foot before his rookie training camp, missing the first half of his rookie season...and then had to integrate into NBA/team system on the fly as a rookie.

• Elfrid Payton was handed starting PG role on golden platter as a rookie.

• Jonathan Isaac as a rookie: suffered ankle injury/setbacks his rookie season...only played 27 games

• Mo Bamba suffered season ending leg fracture in early January of his rookie season

The only rookie that kind of fits the "overprotection" description is Mario Hezonja, who was virtually unplayable because he was so unbelievably awful on defense and zero discipline on offense. Even with that, Skiles still played him 18mpg in 79 games.

I might be wrong, but im pretty sure he was referring to the rookies being seemingly unable to step a foot wrong, as opposed to physically protecting them from playtime/injury.

My point addresses that.

Most of the Magic rookies were limited because of injury, not because they were "unable to step a foot wrong."

I also pointed out that the rookies that were healthy (Oladipo and Payton) were definitely given free reign...Oladipo had the ball in his hands and freedom from day one...EP didn't even have a single NBA level back up PG to challenge him for his first 2 years.

Really the only rookie that any argument can be made about is Mario, and he was just absolutely awful defender and turnover machine as a rookie. But even still, like I said earlier, even he was gifted 18mpg / 79 games as a rookie.

[ezzzp]

There def were undeserving vets playing over guys.. Jeff Green, CJ Watson, Ben Gordon, Afflalo, etc.

Who were they playing over?

Green over Hezonja...Mario couldn't earn minutes on the Knicks and they just let him walk even though they had a ton of capspace. As was his problem from day 1, refuses to play defense and stay within system. Skiles gifted Mario minutes, but Vogel didn't.

CJ over Shabazz Napier? Not sure who else - Devyn Marble? Plus he missed most of his first season - so who did he take minutes from?

Who did Ben Gordon take minutes from?

Afflalo was definitely deserving of his minutes, same as JJ who you didn't mention. But those guys weren't taking minutes from Oladipo or Harkless who played 2k minutes both his seasons with Magic. So who's minutes were they taking? Mario wasn't on team yet.

[NavalAviator94]

Orlando wanted a draft and stach (as they ownership were not willing to go above luxury) and were considering trade down

The problem with this theory is that the Magic wouldn't be over the Luxury Tax if they signed Okeke - even at full 120% rookie scale:

True. But the Magic would also only have 14 players under contract with one of them essentially not able to play because of injury, so really 13 players available.

Adding a 15th player (and again really a 14th player because Okeke's wouldn't have been playing for a while, if at all) would have put them over the tax.

Also Fournier is makes 150K than you have listed because he hit a bonus last year.

Being slightly over the tax isn't the worst thing in the world considering it's not any of our money, but it would give the Magic a smaller MLE to use next summer.

On last point, I think it’s more related to the repeater tax. You don’t want that clock running until you’re a legit contender.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

[ezzzp]

On last point, I think it’s more related to the repeater tax. You don’t want that clock running until you’re a legit contender.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

The Magic won't be anywhere even remotely close to the luxury tax next year...17m below it.

[NavalAviator94]

On last point, I think it’s more related to the repeater tax. You don’t want that clock running until you’re a legit contender.


Sent from my iPad using RealGM mobile app

The Magic won't be anywhere even remotely close to the luxury tax next year...17m below it.

Unless.....

[pepe1991]

Overprotection of rookies?

• Oladipo played 2500 minutes with team leading 24.4 USG as a rookie.

• Aaron Gordon fractured his foot before his rookie training camp, missing the first half of his rookie season...and then had to integrate into NBA/team system on the fly as a rookie.

• Elfrid Payton was handed starting PG role on golden platter as a rookie.

• Jonathan Isaac as a rookie: suffered ankle injury/setbacks his rookie season...only played 27 games

• Mo Bamba suffered season ending leg fracture in early January of his rookie season

The only rookie that kind of fits the "overprotection" description is Mario Hezonja, who was virtually unplayable because he was so unbelievably awful on defense and zero discipline on offense. Even with that, Skiles still played him 18mpg in 79 games.

I might be wrong, but im pretty sure he was referring to the rookies being seemingly unable to step a foot wrong, as opposed to physically protecting them from playtime/injury.

My point addresses that.

Most of the Magic rookies were limited because of injury, not because they were "unable to step a foot wrong."

I also pointed out that the rookies that were healthy (Oladipo and Payton) were definitely given free reign...Oladipo had the ball in his hands and freedom from day one...EP didn't even have a single NBA level back up PG to challenge him for his first 2 years.

Really the only rookie that any argument can be made about is Mario, and he was just absolutely awful defender and turnover machine as a rookie. But even still, like I said earlier, even he was gifted 18mpg / 79 games as a rookie.

From pov of fanbase , not from POV of team or front office.
Took fanbase 3 years for Hezonja and 4 years for Payton to finally wave white flag , admitting they are nowhere near what was expected .
But during that 3 ( and 4) years, fanbase worshiped them, making up excuses at every step why they don't thrive and listing up best case scnarios based on success of other players in similar situation.

As from front office POV, let's be honest.
Apart from Oladipo each and every single one of them sucked during rookie year.
Gordon (5,2ppg) , terrible performance + injury
Hezonja ( 6,1ppg), terrible performance
Isaac (5,4 ppg) , terrible + injury
Payton (8,9 ppg) terrible performance
Mo Bamba (6,2ppg) injury + terrible