Steph Top 10 All Time - According to Bleacher report

dhsilv2 · Post #161 » by **dhsilv2** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:16 pm

I seriously can't believe we're debating Moses and Curry. I posted this earlier but once again.

6 year run for Curry vs Moses's clear 3 year peak (there's a gap). So I'm using the most favorable possible Moses period period for per metrics and going back to 2014 for curry.

PER 26.7 vs 25.7
WS/48 .254 vs .222
BPM 8.7 vs 3.8

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2014-2019-sum:advanced

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html#1981-1983-sum:advanced

Moses was a great player and imo he's under valued by a lot of people but you have to focus on longevity bit time to value Moses over Curry and even then Curry has already passed Moses in career VORP which is staggering given the gap in career length.

70sFan · Post #162 » by **70sFan** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:19 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:I seriously can't believe we're debating Moses and Curry. I posted this earlier but once again.

6 year run for Curry vs Moses's clear 3 year peak (there's a gap). So I'm using the most favorable possible Moses period period for per metrics and going back to 2014 for curry.

PER 26.7 vs 25.7
WS/48 .254 vs .222
BPM 8.7 vs 3.8

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2014-2019-sum:advanced

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html#1981-1983-sum:advanced

Moses was a great player and imo he's under valued by a lot of people but you have to focus on longevity bit time to value Moses over Curry and even then Curry has already passed Moses in career VORP which is staggering given the gap in career length.

These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

dhsilv2 · Post #163 » by **dhsilv2** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:20 pm

70sFan wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:I seriously can't believe we're debating Moses and Curry. I posted this earlier but once again.

6 year run for Curry vs Moses's clear 3 year peak (there's a gap). So I'm using the most favorable possible Moses period period for per metrics and going back to 2014 for curry.

PER 26.7 vs 25.7
WS/48 .254 vs .222
BPM 8.7 vs 3.8

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2014-2019-sum:advanced

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html#1981-1983-sum:advanced

Moses was a great player and imo he's under valued by a lot of people but you have to focus on longevity bit time to value Moses over Curry and even then Curry has already passed Moses in career VORP which is staggering given the gap in career length.

These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

The gap is absurd man! Again I'm pulling 6 years for Curry vs 3 for Moses, I'm intentionally biasing the numbers as best I can to make Moses look better and they're not close.

70sFan · Post #164 » by **70sFan** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:24 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:I seriously can't believe we're debating Moses and Curry. I posted this earlier but once again.

6 year run for Curry vs Moses's clear 3 year peak (there's a gap). So I'm using the most favorable possible Moses period period for per metrics and going back to 2014 for curry.

PER 26.7 vs 25.7
WS/48 .254 vs .222
BPM 8.7 vs 3.8

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2014-2019-sum:advanced

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html#1981-1983-sum:advanced

Moses was a great player and imo he's under valued by a lot of people but you have to focus on longevity bit time to value Moses over Curry and even then Curry has already passed Moses in career VORP which is staggering given the gap in career length.

These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

The gap is absurd man! Again I'm pulling 6 years for Curry vs 3 for Moses, I'm intentionally biasing the numbers as best I can to make Moses look better and they're not close.

No, they are not absurd. 1 point of PER difference and .032 difference in WS/48 is not huge. Especially when you factor defensive difference.

Not to mention that I don't use stats like that as a real argument, they don't show anything to me.

dhsilv2 · Post #165 » by **dhsilv2** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:32 pm

70sFan wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

The gap is absurd man! Again I'm pulling 6 years for Curry vs 3 for Moses, I'm intentionally biasing the numbers as best I can to make Moses look better and they're not close.

No, they are not absurd. 1 point of PER difference and .032 difference in WS/48 is not huge. Especially when you factor defensive difference.

Not to mention that I don't use stats like that as a real argument, they don't show anything to me.

There isn't that big a defensive edge for Moses, especially that isn't in the metrics. 1 point of PER from 25 to 26 is huge, PER isn't linear. You also ignore BPM which is the most valuable stat here and the gap is astronomical.

If you don't like the stats which again show a night and day massive difference in a 6 year run vs a 3 year run, honestly I'm not sure what more can be said. The idea moses was close to Curry at his peak is certainly going to be an extreme minority view.

For whatever it is worth if the stats miss on defense, it's more than offset by them also missing on how bad a play maker moses was.

freethedevil · Post #166 » by **freethedevil** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:00 pm

70sFan wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:I seriously can't believe we're debating Moses and Curry. I posted this earlier but once again.

6 year run for Curry vs Moses's clear 3 year peak (there's a gap). So I'm using the most favorable possible Moses period period for per metrics and going back to 2014 for curry.

PER 26.7 vs 25.7
WS/48 .254 vs .222
BPM 8.7 vs 3.8

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2014-2019-sum:advanced

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html#1981-1983-sum:advanced

Moses was a great player and imo he's under valued by a lot of people but you have to focus on longevity bit time to value Moses over Curry and even then Curry has already passed Moses in career VORP which is staggering given the gap in career length.

These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

8.7 vs 3.8 is huge and off course is the only stat he listed which isn't arbitrary.

I'm gonna need evidence on "much better defender" than curry. Prime Curry has consistently made his defences better, is a good defensive rebounder, is useful helping vs bigs and guarding smalls, and switches well.

Given that
a. Malone never anchored elite defenses
b. malone's defenses didn't get affected much without him

Methinks "much better defender than curry" is just you fixating on what happens on the ball.

Not to mention that I don't use stats like that as a real argument, they don't show anything to me.

Given that all those stats do a better job predicting winning than counting stats do, I take it winning doesn't matter to you?

70sFan · Post #167 » by **70sFan** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:26 pm

freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:I seriously can't believe we're debating Moses and Curry. I posted this earlier but once again.

6 year run for Curry vs Moses's clear 3 year peak (there's a gap). So I'm using the most favorable possible Moses period period for per metrics and going back to 2014 for curry.

PER 26.7 vs 25.7
WS/48 .254 vs .222
BPM 8.7 vs 3.8

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2014-2019-sum:advanced

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html#1981-1983-sum:advanced

Moses was a great player and imo he's under valued by a lot of people but you have to focus on longevity bit time to value Moses over Curry and even then Curry has already passed Moses in career VORP which is staggering given the gap in career length.

These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

8.7 vs 3.8 is huge and off course is the only stat he listed which isn't arbitrary.

I'm gonna need evidence on "much better defender" than curry. Prime Curry has consistently made his defences better, is a good defensive rebounder, is useful helping vs bigs and guarding smalls, and switches well.

Given that
a. Malone never anchored elite defenses
b. malone's defenses didn't get affected much without him

Methinks "much better defender than curry" is just you fixating on what happens on the ball.

Not to mention that I don't use stats like that as a real argument, they don't show anything to me.

Given that all those stats do a better job predicting winning than counting stats do, I take it winning doesn't matter to you?

PER does better job at predicting winning? Really?

We already had debate about Moses defense and I won't keep saying the same again. Curry improves Warriors offense because they had terrible backup point guards. He's smart off the ball and has nice hands, but he's also weak man defender.

Moses also anchored elite Philly defenses in 1983 and 1984.

dhsilv2 · Post #168 » by **dhsilv2** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:11 pm

70sFan wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

8.7 vs 3.8 is huge and off course is the only stat he listed which isn't arbitrary.

I'm gonna need evidence on "much better defender" than curry. Prime Curry has consistently made his defences better, is a good defensive rebounder, is useful helping vs bigs and guarding smalls, and switches well.

Given that
a. Malone never anchored elite defenses
b. malone's defenses didn't get affected much without him

Methinks "much better defender than curry" is just you fixating on what happens on the ball.

Not to mention that I don't use stats like that as a real argument, they don't show anything to me.

Given that all those stats do a better job predicting winning than counting stats do, I take it winning doesn't matter to you?

PER does better job at predicting winning? Really?

We already had debate about Moses defense and I won't keep saying the same again. Curry improves Warriors offense because they had terrible backup point guards. He's smart off the ball and has nice hands, but he's also weak man defender.

Moses also anchored elite Philly defenses in 1983 and 1984.

BPM does...nobody uses PER. The metric here that has the widest margin for Curry is also the most predictive.

Not sure I buy Moses was the anchor of the 76er's defense. Those were loaded defensive teams.

PaulLee · Post #169 » by **PaulLee** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:37 pm

scrabbarista wrote:
PaulLee wrote:
scrabbarista wrote:
I got him 12th right now. I use a formula, so I can't say exactly what he needs to do - there are different paths he could take - but I think he's got a decent chance of getting there. (Even jumping one spot can sometimes take a lot once you get that high on the list.) I'd probably put it between 40% and 50%. I think his odds of getting to 11th (where I have Kobe) are probably more like 80% to 90%. I'm factoring in the possibility of injury in these numbers.

I have a formula as well (still tweaking), but mine has Steph sitting at 22. Interested to see your top 25 all time from your formula.

CP, Havlicek, Pettit, Moses, Robinson, West, KD, Oscar, Karl, D-Wade, KG, Erving, Dirk, Curry, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, LeBron, Kareem, MJ. Yours?

Nice.

This is how my list looks so far. Haven't added a few other categories like clutch, global impact, etc, and i haven't adjusted it for things like era played in, number of teams etc. Not sure if i will though.

Our top ten have the same guys expect you have Bird and i have Kobe. Both those guys are our respective 11th spot guy.

1 Michael Jordan
2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3 Bill Russell
4 LeBron James*
5 Wilt Chamberlain
6 Tim Duncan
7 Magic Johnson
8 Kobe Bryant
9 Shaquille O'Neal
10 Hakeem Olajuwon
11 Larry Bird
12 Jerry West
13 Karl Malone
14 Kevin Garnett
15 John Havlicek
16 Bob Cousy
17 Scottie Pippen
18 Kevin Durant*
19 David Robinson
20 Bob Pettit
21 Dwyane Wade
22 Stephen Curry*
23 Oscar Robertson
24 Moses Malone
25 Chris Paul*

50CalClips · Post #170 » by **50CalClips** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:58 pm

Steph Curry is still (clearly) below Oscar Robertson... so definitely not Top 10.

But he has about 4 more years to make his case.

freethedevil · Post #171 » by **freethedevil** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 12:19 am

70sFan wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
These numbers doesn't show huge advantage for Curry at all. Especially when you factor that Moses was better defender than Curry.

8.7 vs 3.8 is huge and off course is the only stat he listed which isn't arbitrary.

I'm gonna need evidence on "much better defender" than curry. Prime Curry has consistently made his defences better, is a good defensive rebounder, is useful helping vs bigs and guarding smalls, and switches well.

Given that
a. Malone never anchored elite defenses
b. malone's defenses didn't get affected much without him

Methinks "much better defender than curry" is just you fixating on what happens on the ball.

Not to mention that I don't use stats like that as a real argument, they don't show anything to me.

Given that all those stats do a better job predicting winning than counting stats do, I take it winning doesn't matter to you?

PER does better job at predicting winning? Really?

Yes, even per(and ws/48) does a better job predicting winning than raw box #'s despite being utterly arbitrary. And off course stats that aren't arbitrary have curry miles ahead.

Curry improves Warriors offense because they had terrible backup point guards.

Too bad then that stats that adjust for lineups still have curry's prime miles ahead of malone's
He's smart off the ball and has nice hands, but he's also weak man defender.

Weak man defender who holds opposing players below their average efficiency? He's weak against bigs yes, which doesn't matter since he's good at forcing them into help. Moses isn't a great defender and curry is a positive which means it's impossible for moses to be "much better" than curry defensively.

Moses also anchored elite Philly defenses in 1983 and 1984.

Moses has never ever anchored a defense.

Metallikid · Post #172 » by **Metallikid** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 12:37 am

Optms wrote:He's cracking into the top 10 this season with an an MVP.

He would have been top 7 already had Klay not been injured/left the Raptors series.

Stop this nonsense. Klay played 4 and 3/4 quarters of 6 games and they went 2-3. Game 1, the game where the Warriors were completely healthy aside from Durant, the Raptors won on Pascal's 35 point effort. The Raptors still win the series if Klay doesn't get hurt.

Sprewell4Three · Post #173 » by **Sprewell4Three** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 12:39 am

Isiah Thomas and Allen Iverson got no respect.

Post #174 » by **GeorgeMarcus** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 12:44 am

Sprewell4Three wrote:Isiah Thomas and Allen Iverson got no respect.

I love AI and grew up watching him. I don't really agree that he's worse than Pierce and some of these other guys, but I can buy an argument that he's not Top 50 all time.

I agree Isiah is probably lower than he should be.

Metallikid · Post #175 » by **Metallikid** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 2:56 am

WarriorGM wrote:
Metallikid wrote:Moses Malone was the greatest offensive rebounder of all time, I would consider that just as important as being the best three point shooter of all time. My point is that very few have Moses in their top 10 and I don't think Curry has surpassed even him.

Name me all the ways you think Moses was better and I'll come up with my list for Curry.

Rebounding
Defence
Drawing Fouls
Durability
Longevity and Career Totals (Curry has played around 60% of the games and minutes that Moses did and that's without including Moses' two ABA seasons)
Individual Accolades
Better 5-year Peak (26.8/15.4/1.7/1.0/1.6 - 70.2 WS vs. 25.9/4.7/7.2/1.9/0.2 - 68.6 WS)
Better 10-year Sustained Prime (This is Malone's 10 best consecutive seasons vs. Curry's entire 10 season career but it currently favours Malone)

After looking long and hard at the stats it actually appears crystal clear that right now Moses Malone is significantly ahead of Stephen Curry if you at all care about longevity and defence. Yes, Steph could definitely catch Moses if he has 3-4 more elite seasons, but as of now Steph is behind in many metrics, he has not lived up to ATG status in the big moments unlike Moses (fo' fo' fo' and he willed a sub .500 Rockets team to the NBA Finals in 1981), and in general Steph gets a lot of positive recency bias. I have a feeling that significant doubts will be cast over his resume if he never gets the Warriors back to the Finals.

beeshma · Post #176 » by **beeshma** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 4:07 am

Dominater wrote:That's why it's bleacher report

Off the top of my head in no particular order:

MJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq

That's 10 right there. And I haven't looked at a list yet so I'm sure I'm missing a few

I think Kareem, Bird, and Shaq are the weakest out of those 10. Curry would have to surpass one of them which is tough because Kareem is the all time leading scorer, Shaq had the highest peak, and Bird is the only white guy on the list.

CodeBreaker · Post #177 » by **CodeBreaker** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 6:30 am

Curry has become one of the most overrated players today, wow.

_Game7_ · Post #178 » by **_Game7_** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 6:33 am

If you where born in the 2000's sure.

clyde21 · Post #179 » by **clyde21** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 6:45 am

CodeBreaker wrote:Curry has become one of the most underrated players today, wow.

FIFY

The High Cyde · Post #180 » by **The High Cyde** » Tue Oct 1, 2019 7:06 am

Not seeing a case for Curry to enter top 10 as is right now. But he still has a bunch of years left.

Let's see how he does this year for a start. He's gonna come out guns blazing for sure.