Steph Top 10 All Time - According to Bleacher report

[70sFan]

That's why it's bleacher report

Off the top of my head in no particular order:

MJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Lebron
Duncan
Kobe
Shaq

That's 10 right there. And I haven't looked at a list yet so I'm sure I'm missing a few

I think Kareem, Bird, and Shaq are the weakest out of those 10. Curry would have to surpass one of them which is tough because Kareem is the all time leading scorer, Shaq had the highest peak, and Bird is the only white guy on the list.

Kareem? He has better career, better prime, better peak and better longevity than Curry. I can't see how Steph could surpass him to be honest.

Bird is much more probable, especially because Bird has relatively weak longevity and his prime is comparable to Curry's.

[koningcosmo]

last 3 years we saw he isnt even better then KD but yeah lets put him in the top 10 all time with 0 FMVP's

[Triple7]

I think Steph is very similar on defense to Larry Bird. Not a lock down/elite defender, but he's smart, plays good team defense and is underrated by people who ignore positioning and such.

This is just stupid and dumb! Larry Bird is a 3x defensive team member. If that’s not elite, then i don’t know what is. Curry is just an average defender at best. He’s just lucky he played with elite defenders in Draymond, Klay and Iggy. Let’s see how he does playing with DLo

Do you REALLY think Bird deserved ANY of those all defensive selections? Same with Klay? I personally think Bird due to rebounding was a better defender than Curry but the gap isn't remotely close to as large as the implied "elite" defense from Bird would be. Bird was at best an above average defender who like curry made at time some great reads off ball.

Of course! He was voted three times. It’s something to be voted once, but three times? If you have watched 80’s basketball, then you would know how hard it was to get recognition as a defender. Heck even Magic, who led the league in steals for two seasons didn’t even sniffed all defense. Curry is a mediocre defender. Don’t ever compare him with Bird. Curry won’t ever get votes for his defense. That’s why he can’t enter top ten all time, because of his defense, aside from not winning fmvp’s and being a side kick of KD for three years.

[dhsilv2]

This is just stupid and dumb! Larry Bird is a 3x defensive team member. If that’s not elite, then i don’t know what is. Curry is just an average defender at best. He’s just lucky he played with elite defenders in Draymond, Klay and Iggy. Let’s see how he does playing with DLo

Do you REALLY think Bird deserved ANY of those all defensive selections? Same with Klay? I personally think Bird due to rebounding was a better defender than Curry but the gap isn't remotely close to as large as the implied "elite" defense from Bird would be. Bird was at best an above average defender who like curry made at time some great reads off ball.

Of course! He was voted three times. It’s something to be voted once, but three times? If you have watched 80’s basketball, then you would know how hard it was to get recognition as a defender. Heck even Magic, who led the league in steals for two seasons didn’t even sniffed all defense. Curry is a mediocre defender. Don’t ever compare him with Bird. Curry won’t ever get votes for his defense. That’s why he can’t enter top ten all time, because of his defense, aside from not winning fmvp’s and being a side kick of KD for three years.

Have YOU watched 80's basketball? Defensive voting has been absolute trash since day one. No, being voted in once or three times makes no difference. While not the same as the all defensive sections but defense was so poorly understood that freaking Sidney , Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, and Michael Jordan won DPOY awards in the 80's.

And no...Curry's defense doesn't preclude him from the top 10 all time discussion at all. Curry has been the best player in basketball since 2015. The ignorant comments about KD are reaching a point of absurdity. I swear, being a smart basketball player and being a team player is now being used to reduce the value of players...

[The4thHorseman]

Do you REALLY think Bird deserved ANY of those all defensive selections? Same with Klay? I personally think Bird due to rebounding was a better defender than Curry but the gap isn't remotely close to as large as the implied "elite" defense from Bird would be. Bird was at best an above average defender who like curry made at time some great reads off ball.

Of course! He was voted three times. It’s something to be voted once, but three times? If you have watched 80’s basketball, then you would know how hard it was to get recognition as a defender. Heck even Magic, who led the league in steals for two seasons didn’t even sniffed all defense. Curry is a mediocre defender. Don’t ever compare him with Bird. Curry won’t ever get votes for his defense. That’s why he can’t enter top ten all time, because of his defense, aside from not winning fmvp’s and being a side kick of KD for three years.

Have YOU watched 80's basketball? Defensive voting has been absolute trash since day one. No, being voted in once or three times makes no difference. While not the same as the all defensive sections but defense was so poorly understood that freaking Sidney , Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, and Michael Jordan won DPOY awards in the 80's.

And no...Curry's defense doesn't preclude him from the top 10 all time discussion at all. Curry has been the best player in basketball since 2015. The ignorant comments about KD are reaching a point of absurdity. I swear, being a smart basketball player and being a team player is now being used to reduce the value of players...

[WarriorGM]

Moses Malone was the greatest offensive rebounder of all time, I would consider that just as important as being the best three point shooter of all time. My point is that very few have Moses in their top 10 and I don't think Curry has surpassed even him.

Name me all the ways you think Moses was better and I'll come up with my list for Curry.

Rebounding
Defence
Drawing Fouls
Durability
Longevity and Career Totals (Curry has played around 60% of the games and minutes that Moses did and that's without including Moses' two ABA seasons)
Individual Accolades
Better 5-year Peak (26.8/15.4/1.7/1.0/1.6 - 70.2 WS vs. 25.9/4.7/7.2/1.9/0.2 - 68.6 WS)
Better 10-year Sustained Prime (This is Malone's 10 best consecutive seasons vs. Curry's entire 10 season career but it currently favours Malone)

After looking long and hard at the stats it actually appears crystal clear that right now Moses Malone is significantly ahead of Stephen Curry if you at all care about longevity and defence. Yes, Steph could definitely catch Moses if he has 3-4 more elite seasons, but as of now Steph is behind in many metrics, he has not lived up to ATG status in the big moments unlike Moses (fo' fo' fo' and he willed a sub .500 Rockets team to the NBA Finals in 1981), and in general Steph gets a lot of positive recency bias. I have a feeling that significant doubts will be cast over his resume if he never gets the Warriors back to the Finals.

Assisting
Offense
Free throw shooting %
Efficiency
Influence
Individual records (50-45-90, Unanimous MVP, 400+ 3s, plus-minus record in playoffs, top 10 all-time ppg in finals, top 3 all-time TS% in playoffs, etc.)
Better 5-year peak even according to your chosen metric (Curry's WS from 2013-2017 is 70.7)
More successful franchise player

Thank you for showing how looking long and hard at the stats can still lead one to pick a stat that one thinks favors Moses but actually favors Curry and how criticism of Curry needs to go into contortions just to arrive at a conclusion that is false. Your comment on longevity and defence shows that that is all one can think of to value Curry the way you do and despite the difference between them on defence during the 5-year peak determined by WS is negligible (20.3 vs. 19 DWS while sharing the same -0.2 DBPM and this in a comparison between a center and a guard). Curry is already ahead of Moses in many metrics despite having played substantially less. Moses may have gotten close to fo' fo' fo' but then how can you ignore Curry came even closer to fo' fo' fo' fo'? Did you forget? Then I guess you also forgot games 6 and 7 of the 2016 WCF against the Thunder, games 6 and 7 of the 2018 WCF and games 5 and 6 of the WCSF against the Rockets. Seeing that it seems you have I think the recency bias doesn't apply. You talk about doubts being cast on his record but one has to go into "feelings" to find them. Curry has one of the most unassailable records in terms of actual numbers and results. Then again we have people doubting Bill Russell so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

[WarriorGM]

I swear, being a smart basketball player and being a team player is now being used to reduce the value of players...

Yes, it is obvious there are many people who penalize being a great team player because it lowers absolute numbers. WS was suggested in a previous post as a metric to determine peak causing the one who brought it up to overlook Curry's 2013 when he had to be more ball dominant.

The absolutely game-changing value of Curry's efficiency is lost on them.

[Triple7]

Of course! He was voted three times. It’s something to be voted once, but three times? If you have watched 80’s basketball, then you would know how hard it was to get recognition as a defender. Heck even Magic, who led the league in steals for two seasons didn’t even sniffed all defense. Curry is a mediocre defender. Don’t ever compare him with Bird. Curry won’t ever get votes for his defense. That’s why he can’t enter top ten all time, because of his defense, aside from not winning fmvp’s and being a side kick of KD for three years.

Have YOU watched 80's basketball? Defensive voting has been absolute trash since day one. No, being voted in once or three times makes no difference. While not the same as the all defensive sections but defense was so poorly understood that freaking Sidney , Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, and Michael Jordan won DPOY awards in the 80's.

And no...Curry's defense doesn't preclude him from the top 10 all time discussion at all. Curry has been the best player in basketball since 2015. The ignorant comments about KD are reaching a point of absurdity. I swear, being a smart basketball player and being a team player is now being used to reduce the value of players...

Damn! Are you seriously questioning robertson, cooper, and MJ winning DPOY??? and also saying that Bird getting three defensive team awards means nothing.

[dhsilv2]

Have YOU watched 80's basketball? Defensive voting has been absolute trash since day one. No, being voted in once or three times makes no difference. While not the same as the all defensive sections but defense was so poorly understood that freaking Sidney , Alvin Robertson, Michael Cooper, and Michael Jordan won DPOY awards in the 80's.

And no...Curry's defense doesn't preclude him from the top 10 all time discussion at all. Curry has been the best player in basketball since 2015. The ignorant comments about KD are reaching a point of absurdity. I swear, being a smart basketball player and being a team player is now being used to reduce the value of players...

Damn! Are you seriously questioning robertson, cooper, and MJ winning DPOY??? and also saying that Bird getting three defensive team awards means nothing.

Questioning? I'm say it was flat out beyond idiotic for any of them to get it. Yes, I am saying Bird was never an all defensive team level defender.

[Prokorov]

Agree or Disagree?

Steph is by far my favourite player this past decade, and i hope one day he'll deserve this spot, but I personally have him sitting around 15-20 range at the moment.

If you agree - then why?
If you dont agree - then what do you feel Steph needs to accomplish to reach top ten all time?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed#slide42

i think he is outside the top 10 in that next 11-20 range:

1) longevity (hasnt achieved it yet and we are talking top 10 today)
2) 3 titles with 0 finals MVPs (less then everyone in the top 10 for finals mvp, less then many for titles)
3) 2 time MVP (less then many in the top 10)

Kareem, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Russell all have more rings, more finals MVP, and the same/more longevity and as many or more MVPS

Bird, Shaq, Magic all have more titles/finals mvps with similar longevity

Wilt and lebron have similar titles more finals MVPs with more longevity and in lebrons case more regular season hardware

best case would be curry over wilt with recency bias or lebron because of titls plus head to head but lebron outplayed curry in every finals

he would be outside those 10 for me

[Metallikid]

Name me all the ways you think Moses was better and I'll come up with my list for Curry.

Rebounding
Defence
Drawing Fouls
Durability
Longevity and Career Totals (Curry has played around 60% of the games and minutes that Moses did and that's without including Moses' two ABA seasons)
Individual Accolades
Better 5-year Peak (26.8/15.4/1.7/1.0/1.6 - 70.2 WS vs. 25.9/4.7/7.2/1.9/0.2 - 68.6 WS)
Better 10-year Sustained Prime (This is Malone's 10 best consecutive seasons vs. Curry's entire 10 season career but it currently favours Malone)

After looking long and hard at the stats it actually appears crystal clear that right now Moses Malone is significantly ahead of Stephen Curry if you at all care about longevity and defence. Yes, Steph could definitely catch Moses if he has 3-4 more elite seasons, but as of now Steph is behind in many metrics, he has not lived up to ATG status in the big moments unlike Moses (fo' fo' fo' and he willed a sub .500 Rockets team to the NBA Finals in 1981), and in general Steph gets a lot of positive recency bias. I have a feeling that significant doubts will be cast over his resume if he never gets the Warriors back to the Finals.

Assisting
Offense
Free throw shooting %
Efficiency
Influence
Individual records (50-45-90, Unanimous MVP, 400+ 3s, plus-minus record in playoffs, top 10 all-time ppg in finals, top 3 all-time TS% in playoffs, etc.)
Better 5-year peak even according to your chosen metric (Curry's WS from 2013-2017 is 70.7)
More successful franchise player

Thank you for showing how looking long and hard at the stats can still lead one to pick a stat that one thinks favors Moses but actually favors Curry and how criticism of Curry needs to go into contortions just to arrive at a conclusion that is false. Your comment on longevity and defence shows that that is all one can think of to value Curry the way you do and despite the difference between them on defence during the 5-year peak determined by WS is negligible (20.3 vs. 19 DWS while sharing the same -0.2 DBPM and this in a comparison between a center and a guard). Curry is already ahead of Moses in many metrics despite having played substantially less. Moses may have gotten close to fo' fo' fo' but then how can you ignore Curry came even closer to fo' fo' fo' fo'? Did you forget? Then I guess you also forgot games 6 and 7 of the 2016 WCF against the Thunder, games 6 and 7 of the 2018 WCF and games 5 and 6 of the WCSF against the Rockets. Seeing that it seems you have I think the recency bias doesn't apply. You talk about doubts being cast on his record but one has to go into "feelings" to find them. Curry has one of the most unassailable records in terms of actual numbers and results. Then again we have people doubting Bill Russell so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Really unconvincing. Moses' advantage on rebounds is way ahead of Curry's advantage in regard to assists. Curry's offense actually isn't that much better than Moses if you look at raw scoring metrics, over the five year peak Moses scored more than Curry. The free throw shooting advantage is also negligible when you factor that Moses made twice as many free throws per game than Steph. Individual Records as a category is something you made up and is exceedingly arbitrary and I don't assign much value to several of the things you mentioned. (like 50/40/90 or the Unanimous MVP) The fact is the accolades favour Malone; more MVPs, Finals MVPs, All-Star Appearances, All-NBA, All-Defensive. Likewise influence is something you can't measure and even if I said he was 'more influential' that wouldn't mean much either for ATG rankings, certainly not enough to put him over other people in the top 20-25. George Mikan was the most 'influential' player ever because they widened the lane due to him, so what? There are only three real legitimate unique advantages Curry has; three point shooting, pure shooting efficiency (and it's not that big a gap as you'd think especially between a guard vs a big), and steals. Franchise Player also doesn't mean diddly to me for ATG ranks, idk why it does for you.

I used Bball Ref for my 5-year Peak my numbers are right I don't know how you got 70.7 but you didn't limit it to just five seasons. And even so the WS aspect was a wash if you look at the numbers Moses is far and away better. 27/15/2 vs 26/5/7 is not really a contest.

[WarriorGM]

Rebounding
Defence
Drawing Fouls
Durability
Longevity and Career Totals (Curry has played around 60% of the games and minutes that Moses did and that's without including Moses' two ABA seasons)
Individual Accolades
Better 5-year Peak (26.8/15.4/1.7/1.0/1.6 - 70.2 WS vs. 25.9/4.7/7.2/1.9/0.2 - 68.6 WS)
Better 10-year Sustained Prime (This is Malone's 10 best consecutive seasons vs. Curry's entire 10 season career but it currently favours Malone)

After looking long and hard at the stats it actually appears crystal clear that right now Moses Malone is significantly ahead of Stephen Curry if you at all care about longevity and defence. Yes, Steph could definitely catch Moses if he has 3-4 more elite seasons, but as of now Steph is behind in many metrics, he has not lived up to ATG status in the big moments unlike Moses (fo' fo' fo' and he willed a sub .500 Rockets team to the NBA Finals in 1981), and in general Steph gets a lot of positive recency bias. I have a feeling that significant doubts will be cast over his resume if he never gets the Warriors back to the Finals.

Assisting
Offense
Free throw shooting %
Efficiency
Influence
Individual records (50-45-90, Unanimous MVP, 400+ 3s, plus-minus record in playoffs, top 10 all-time ppg in finals, top 3 all-time TS% in playoffs, etc.)
Better 5-year peak even according to your chosen metric (Curry's WS from 2013-2017 is 70.7)
More successful franchise player

Thank you for showing how looking long and hard at the stats can still lead one to pick a stat that one thinks favors Moses but actually favors Curry and how criticism of Curry needs to go into contortions just to arrive at a conclusion that is false. Your comment on longevity and defence shows that that is all one can think of to value Curry the way you do and despite the difference between them on defence during the 5-year peak determined by WS is negligible (20.3 vs. 19 DWS while sharing the same -0.2 DBPM and this in a comparison between a center and a guard). Curry is already ahead of Moses in many metrics despite having played substantially less. Moses may have gotten close to fo' fo' fo' but then how can you ignore Curry came even closer to fo' fo' fo' fo'? Did you forget? Then I guess you also forgot games 6 and 7 of the 2016 WCF against the Thunder, games 6 and 7 of the 2018 WCF and games 5 and 6 of the WCSF against the Rockets. Seeing that it seems you have I think the recency bias doesn't apply. You talk about doubts being cast on his record but one has to go into "feelings" to find them. Curry has one of the most unassailable records in terms of actual numbers and results. Then again we have people doubting Bill Russell so I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

Really unconvincing. Moses' advantage on rebounds is way ahead of Curry's advantage in regard to assists. Curry's offense actually isn't that much better than Moses if you look at raw scoring metrics, over the five year peak Moses scored more than Curry. The free throw shooting advantage is also negligible when you factor that Moses made twice as many free throws per game than Steph. Individual Records as a category is something you made up and is exceedingly arbitrary and I don't assign much value to several of the things you mentioned. (like 50/40/90 or the Unanimous MVP) The fact is the accolades favour Malone; more MVPs, Finals MVPs, All-Star Appearances, All-NBA, All-Defensive. Likewise influence is something you can't measure and I even if I said he was 'more influential' that wouldn't mean much either for ATG rankings. George Mikan was the most 'influential' player ever because they widened the lane, so what. There are only three real legitimate unique advantages Curry everyone, Malone included; three point shooting, pure shooting efficiency (and it's not that big a gap as you'd think especially between a guard vs a big), and steals. Franchise Player also doesn't mean diddly to me for ATG ranks, idk why it does for you.

I used Bball Ref for my 5-year Peak my numbers are right I don't know how you got 70.7 but you didn't limit it to just five seasons. And even so the WS aspect was a wash if you look at the numbers Moses is far and away better. 27/15/2 vs 26/5/7 is not really a contest.

But I did limit it to 5 seasons:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/curryst01.html#2013-2017-sum:advanced

I assume you used 2014-2018 but Curry's win shares for 2013 were higher than for 2018. That goes to illustrate also why your interpretation of the numbers is dubious. Curry's scoring numbers took a hit in 2018 in part because KD joined the team, but his efficiency allowed his team to have 3 scorers averaging 20+ per game. That is not directly captured by the numbers and must be inferred. But once you realize what that allows you realize why the Warriors were a much stronger team than even the Heatles.

But I get it you are a Wilt Chamberlain guy and probably a fan of Elgin Baylor, Adrian Dantley, Dominique Wilkins, and Allen Iverson. You're also probably still wondering why they didn't win more despite being so good.

Accolades are even more arbitrary than records. Accolades being given out every year are more common and more subjective than records which may go years without being broken.

Players are drafted to bring championships to their team. Curry turned his losing franchise around and did his job. I consider that a strong mark of a successful career. Warriors fans can tell you how they appreciate Curry's career in ways that go beyond longevity and total career points.

[prophet_of_rage]

Besides underrating my guy Wilt, this is actually one of the better lists I've ever seen. Finally somebody had the balls to put D Rob on Olajuwon's level in spite of the dumb 1 series narrative.

Olakuwon, Ewing and Robinson were on the same level, bit Robinson was not better than Hakeem and not 26 spots better than Ewing who kept.a whole franchise relevant and winning.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[valrond1]

He's around #15 for me now but should crack top 10 after a couple more seasons of similar production.

Let him win another chip and get at least one finals MVP. The other guys in the top 10 have multiple FMVP AFAIK.

[WarriorGM]

He's around #15 for me now but should crack top 10 after a couple more seasons of similar production.

Let him win another chip and get at least one finals MVP. The other guys in the top 10 have multiple FMVP AFAIK.

But not all have more rings and others outside of the top 10 aside from Moses don't have as many MVPs.

[70sFan]

But I get it you are a Wilt Chamberlain guy (...) You're also probably still wondering why they didn't win more despite being so good.

Wait, what are you doing there? Wilt won 2 titles with 2 of the most dominant teams in NBA history. He also was in 6 finals overall. He led his teams to 4 highest records in the league including 68 and 69 wins in smaller league (which is more impressive than in bigger league).

So far Curry has 3 rings (only one more) and I doubt he'd have them without Durant trade. He has less finals appeariences. What exactly makes Wilt a "loser" and Curry a "winner"?

[WarriorGM]

But I get it you are a Wilt Chamberlain guy (...) You're also probably still wondering why they didn't win more despite being so good.

Wait, what are you doing there? Wilt won 2 titles with 2 of the most dominant teams in NBA history. He also was in 6 finals overall. He led his teams to 4 highest records in the league including 68 and 69 wins in smaller league (which is more impressive than in bigger league).

So far Curry has 3 rings (only one more) and I doubt he'd have them without Durant trade. What exactly makes Wilt a "loser" and Curry a "winner"?

Wilt is mainly said to be the better player over Bill Russell because of the way he had mammoth personal stats. He's the poster child for it.

By the way Wilt's winning teams were each stacked with talent in the form of 3 other Hall-of-Famers as well so I don't know what bringing up Durant is supposed to accomplish. People are assuming Draymond and Klay will get there but that's not a done deal.

Six finals in a smaller league isn't necessarily more impressive especially when factoring in that there were only three rounds during that time with most of the 60s having a best of 5 first round with some teams even receiving a bye. By going to 5 consecutive finals the Warriors played as many rounds as the 60s Celtics who went to 8 straight finals.

[valrond1]

Agree or Disagree?

Steph is by far my favourite player this past decade, and i hope one day he'll deserve this spot, but I personally have him sitting around 15-20 range at the moment.

If you agree - then why?
If you dont agree - then what do you feel Steph needs to accomplish to reach top ten all time?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed#slide42

i think he is outside the top 10 in that next 11-20 range:

1) longevity (hasnt achieved it yet and we are talking top 10 today)
2) 3 titles with 0 finals MVPs (less then everyone in the top 10 for finals mvp, less then many for titles)
3) 2 time MVP (less then many in the top 10)

Kareem, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Russell all have more rings, more finals MVP, and the same/more longevity and as many or more MVPS

Bird, Shaq, Magic all have more titles/finals mvps with similar longevity

Wilt and lebron have similar titles more finals MVPs with more longevity and in lebrons case more regular season hardware

best case would be curry over wilt with recency bias or lebron because of titls plus head to head but lebron outplayed curry in every finals

he would be outside those 10 for me

Oh, one more thing. In these 10 seasons, he has been an Allstar and AllNBA only 6 times.
Magic was a 12 time all star and 10 time all NBA in 12 seasons and Bird exactly the same.
Very well put. You can compare Curry to Magic and Bird cause they basically got everything in the first 10 years (Magic up to '91, that's 12, but nearly the same) And simply, there is no comparison. For pure basketball skills, he's just a better shooter and ball handler, and that's it. He hasn't even been the leader or go to guy in those 5 finals. Yep. He needed other guys to step up to win the chips (Iguolada and KD). That said, he's in the top 20, but I just don't see him getting in the top 10 unless he does something incredible like being the top scorer in another finals and getting the FMVP. And still, who do you take out of the top 10?

[beeshma]

Kareem? He has better career, better prime, better peak and better longevity than Curry. I can't see how Steph could surpass him to be honest.

Bird is much more probable, especially because Bird has relatively weak longevity and his prime is comparable to Curry's.

I agree it would be possible for Curry to surpass Bird.

I reviewed Kareem's career stats and now I agree with you. I had not realized Abdul Jabar won a championship on the Bucks before joining the Lakers. That combined with obscene number of All Star games, scoring titles, longevity, and other honors, makes his position pretty much unassailable.

[ropjhk]

Their ultimate reason for placing Jordan ahead of Lebron is their finals record. While I think that should be a factor, I can think of better reasons to have Jordan #1 (and my list has Jordan #1 Lebron #2). Jordan's tougher conference competition, his timely hero moments, his late career regular season performance leading a 72 win team followed by a 69 win team as the only player to play every game (with Rodman, Longley and Kukoc missing significant time in those two seasons) should all be reasons to make Jordan #1 as well.