#27 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[No-more-rings]

I'm not super confident in Harden over Nash anymore, but oh well.

The anti Kawhi stuff is baffling to me, using some regular season rest as a reason to discredit an entire championship run is asinine to me. There is also no proof that his level of play could be replicated by just any old star from resting. Maybe if Lillard misses 20 games, then comes back to lead Portland to a title i might believe it. Like, if we're being real here, the lower regular season effort is the only reason he's not in the mix with Wade, Curry and the rest.

1. 19’ Kawhi- For me it’s as simple as his playoff run being imo better than anyone else who’s left. Yeah he missed 20ish games, but he accomplished what everyone strives to do and only some can dream of. And 2017 proved he can play a full season and still be rested enough to dominate, sure you can bring his durability into question, I remember him being a little banged up against the Warriors and maybe some of the Bucks series but he’s shown to have held up better than someone like Cp3 has proven.


2. 19’ Harden- 3rd best offensive player of his generation, behind only Curry and Lebron. Proved he can be teh best player on a legit title caliber team, etc, etc, slightly ahead of Nash, because i think his size allows him to do a bit more than Nash can on both ends.

3. 2005 Nash- Monster offensive force, perpetual leader of insanely good offenses and if his defense were even neutral he'd be fighting with the likes of West, Oscar, Wade etc. He's probably the 2nd best passer ever honestly.

[E-Balla]

So in terms of results, I do immediately want to push back against that idea. Generally a conference finals loss is preferred to a second loss, sure, but both postseasons featured elimination by the would-be champion Spurs. The 2007 team had a better SRS than they did in 2005, but because Dallas won 67 games that year, the Suns were fated to match up with the Spurs in the second round (because the NBA does not reseed in the event of upsets, the fourth-seeded Jazz were given a clear path to the conference finals once the Mavericks were upset).

Their SRS was 2nd in the league in 05 as opposed to 3rd in 07, and their ORTG was 114.5 vs 113.9 in 07, then 62 wins vs 61. I suppose we can get into league average ortg though i don't know where to find the average for each year, nor do i think it's moves the needle being just 2 years apart.

So the regular season results are comparable no matter how to slice it. Then on paper, i like that roster a little more in 07, they didn't have Joe Johnson, but adding Raja Bell, Borris Diaw, James Jones and Kurt Thomas along with Barbosa's improvement more than makes up for it imo. They were just clearly a deeper team, sure there's some diminishing returns for regular season, but what Nash did in 05 just seems a little more impressive given the roster.

Nash still had a better postseason raw plus/minus and Net Rating in 2007 than he did in 2005.

I don't care about +/- or net rating for such small samples, sorry.

Against the Spurs in 2007, Nash averaged 21.3/12.7/3.7 on 60.5% true shooting, with a series plus/minus of +11 and a general assist percentage of 55.2. Against the Spurs in 2005, Nash averaged 23.2/10.6/3.8 on 57.5% true shooting, with a series plus/minus of -5 and a general assist percentage of 40.2. I personally feel that clearly favours 2007, although I would be interested in whether you disagree.

The progression of the two series also seems to favour 2007. The 2007 Suns lost by 5 in Phoenix, won by 20 in Phoenix, lost by 7 in San Antonio, won by 6 in San Antonio, lost by 3 with an unjustly short-handed roster back at home in Phoenix, and lost by 8 on the road in San Antonio. That was an extremely close series, with Phoenix capturing the only blowout (and therefore actually outscoring San Antonio overall); who knows what would have happened if they had their usual front court in the fifth game, but it is rather easy to imagine that their presence makes up the three-point difference and the series goes back to Phoenix for a seventh game.

In contrast, the 2005 Suns lost by 7, 3, and 10, going down a historically insurmountable 3-0, then won by 5 to avoid the sweep, and ultimately lost by 6 back at home; despite having home-court advantage, they failed to win a single home game. This was also despite Tim Duncan clearly playing at less than full strength, which itself led to what was likely the best series of Amar’e’s entire career: 37/10 averages for the series, leading both teams in scoring every single game and never scoring fewer than 31 points.?

Hmm, should maybe be noted that the 05 Spurs were a 98.8 drtg, and the 07 a 99.9. I don't know the league averages on that either(Eballa usually has this type of info), but again it's more than likely apples to apples anyway.

The Suns i remember being quite thin on depth in the 05 series, that could explain some of the assist % stuff, and why they didn't put up the same fight in 05.

Also you know Joe Johnson missed the first 3 games right? They definitely don't go down 0-3 otherwise, i mean dudes like Steven Hunter and Jim Jackson were getting significant minutes, like who are these dudes?

Is that at all convincing?

I'm not sure it didn't tell me anything i didn't expect, but like i said they're close enough where i don't see a clear advantage for either season.

Yeah being serious and looking at results the 05 Spurs were slightly better defensively, even in the postseason. Against Seattle the round before playing Phoenix they had a -5.5 DRTG against the +6.1 offense of the Supersonics (who were led by pretty great playoff performer Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis and had a +10.7 ORTG in the first round), against the Nuggets who were mediocre offensively and led by a 2nd year player (Melo) they had a -7.8 DRTG, and against Detroit they had a +0.1 DRTG which isn't good but given the Pistons had a +4.6 ORTG in 06 it's arguable that Detroit played under their true offensive level in the 05 regular season. All in all I don't feel comfortable saying Duncan's injury in 05 effected the overall quality of the Spurs defense in 05 and 06, BUT I am comfortable saying it limited Duncan and I can follow the logic that Amare dominated because of that injury, but Amare still roasted Duncan in 07 too. Just less.

All in all it's a toss up as to which series from Nash is more impressive. I will say the 05 postseason in general is more impressive to me because his Lakers series in 07 was weak, even if it was enough to win the series, and his series against Dallas in 05 is clearly the best of his career.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I was private messaged that Kawhi only needs 1 vote to put him in, so i vote for him.

1) Kawhi Leonard 2019 - 732 points on 62% TS, led his team in rebounds, steals, guarded Giannis\Butler in critical moments, 2nd most points in crunch time since 2000 (under 5 minutes), most difficult eastern conference playoff path in the last 25+ years.

[70sFan]

I was private messaged that Kawhi only needs 1 vote to put him in, so i vote for him.

1) Kawhi Leonard 2019 - 732 points on 62% TS, led his team in rebounds, steals, guarded Giannis\Butler in critical moments, 2nd most points in crunch time since 2000 (under 5 minutes), most difficult eastern conference playoff path in the last 25+ years.

You need to pick other 2 votes for other players. Otherwise your vote doesn't count.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

1) Kawhi Leonard 2018\2019 - 732 points on 62% TS, led his team in rebounds, steals, guarded Giannis\Butler in critical moments, 2nd most points in crunch time since 2000 (under 5 minutes), most difficult eastern conference playoff path in the last 25+ years.

2) James Harden 2018\19 - 36 PPG and ran an elite offense with Paul missing time and struggling through the year. 30+ points for 32 straight games. 16 straight games with 30 points and 5 assissts. 42PPG from dec 15 to jan 23. He was pretty much the 2019 Wilt Chamberlain.

3) Scottie Pippen 1993-1994 - Only lost 2 less games despite Jordan being replaced by Pete Myers and rookie Kukoc. Took Ewing's knicks to 7 games. Arguably the goat defensive season for a wing player.

[No-more-rings]

I was private messaged that Kawhi only needs 1 vote to put him in, so i vote for him.

1) Kawhi Leonard 2019 - 732 points on 62% TS, led his team in rebounds, steals, guarded Giannis\Butler in critical moments, 2nd most points in crunch time since 2000 (under 5 minutes), most difficult eastern conference playoff path in the last 25+ years.

Who would’ve cared enough to PM you out of the blue about that? Lol.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I was private messaged that Kawhi only needs 1 vote to put him in, so i vote for him.

1) Kawhi Leonard 2019 - 732 points on 62% TS, led his team in rebounds, steals, guarded Giannis\Butler in critical moments, 2nd most points in crunch time since 2000 (under 5 minutes), most difficult eastern conference playoff path in the last 25+ years.

Who would’ve cared enough to PM you out of the blue about that? Lol.

I guess there's a bigger Kawhi fan on this forum than me after all huh? Poster prefers for me not to mention him.

[LA Bird]

The final totals as at the deadline are:

1) 19 Kawhi = 15.5 points
2) 49 Mikan = 13.5 points
3) 75 McAdoo = 12.0 points
T4) 15 Paul = 9.0 points
T4) 08 Paul = 9.0 points

19 Kawhi wins. It is fitting that HBK is the one to push Kawhi over the top.

Spoiler:

.

Quoting you here in response to your message since I can't reply to your PM.

liamliam1234: 19 Kawhi at #1 (4.5)
ardee: 19 Kawhi at #3 (2.0)
No-more-rings: 19 Kawhi at #1 (4.5)
HBK_Kliq_33: 19 Kawhi at #1 (4.5)

The 15.5 points total for 2019 Kawhi is correct.

[freethedevil]

I was private messaged that Kawhi only needs 1 vote to put him in, so i vote for him.

1) Kawhi Leonard 2019 - 732 points on 62% TS, led his team in rebounds, steals, guarded Giannis\Butler in critical moments, 2nd most points in crunch time since 2000 (under 5 minutes), most difficult eastern conference playoff path in the last 25+ years.

Who would’ve cared enough to PM you out of the blue about that? Lol.

I guess there's a bigger Kawhi fan on this forum than me after all huh? Poster prefers for me not to mention him.

Twas me