#28 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[LA Bird]

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08
21) Tracy McGrady 2002-03
22) Moses Malone 1982-83
23) Patrick Ewing 1989-90
24) Kevin Durant 2013-14
25) Russell Westbrook 2016-17
26) Charles Barkley 1992-93
27) Kawhi Leonard 2018-19

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.
If you're repeating votes from previous rounds, copy and paste the reasoning because "see previous thread for explanation" will not be counted as a valid vote.

Deadline extended indefinitely until there is a tiebreaker

The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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[HBK_Kliq_33]

About time Leonard got in, that was getting over the top.

1) James Harden 2018\19 - 36 PPG and ran an elite offense with Paul missing time and struggling through the year. 30+ points for 32 straight games. 16 straight games with 30 points and 5 assissts. 42PPG from dec 15 to jan 23. He was pretty much the 2019 Wilt Chamberlain.

2) Scottie Pippen 1993-1994 - Only lost 2 less games despite Jordan being replaced by Pete Myers and rookie Kukoc. Took Ewing's knicks to 7 games. Arguably the goat defensive season for a wing player.

3) Steve Nash 2006-07 - his TS was 65% in regular season but it dropped to 57% in the playoffs and he was only a 2.5 BPM but I put him over Chris Paul because he didn't get injured he just got hip checked. Much more clutch than that choker Karl Malone as well.

[Samurai]

1. George Mikan 1949. I understand the concerns about the strength of his era and thus I haven't said anything about him not being voted in yet. But to keep him out of the top 25 altogether seems to be going overboard in one direction. The dominant offensive player in the game, leading the league in scoring and 8th in assists/game. But he was also the dominant defender and rebounder as well. He clearly dominated his peers to a greater extent than anyone left on the board; dropping him to #26 due to questions about league strength seems about right to me.

2. Bob McAdoo 1975. League MVP, he was an outstanding scorer, leading the league with 34.5 ppg, he also led the league in OWS, WS and WS/48. 5th in TS% and 2nd in PER. The knock on him has always been his defense, but 75 was arguably his best defensive season as well. Finished 6th in DWS, 18th in Def Rtg, and 6th in blocks/game.

3. Bob Pettit 1963. Yes, I understand his stats were more dominant in 56 and 59. But the level of competition he faced in those seasons were lower; Schayes, Johnston, Cousy, Sharman and Stokes were pretty much the next tier of stars. In 63, Pettit averaged 28.4/15.1/3.1 in a league that included stars like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, and Bellamy with next tier stars like Greer, Cousy, DeBusschere, Howell, Gola, Guerin, and Wilkens. But Pettit also raised his game in the playoffs, with a 31.8/15/3 line and leading with a 26.1 PER and .244 WS/48. He also recorded the highest TS% of his playoff career with a .543. Era adjustment is not a precise science and those who penalize his era more heavily will have Pettit farther down the list while those who penalize his era less will have him higher. Your mileage may vary.

[liamliam1234]

I have been wondering for a while: is there a reason you stopped voting? I know you voted for Durant that one time to avoid an extension, but otherwise you have basically stayed out of it since... Magic? Which seems odd to me, because your opinion matters regardless of whether you moderate this, and trex was very active with his moderation back when. Especially now that discussion is dying down, it helps the sample be more representative of the forum as a whole if your voice is part of it.

Anyway, deciding between 2006 Nash and 2008 Paul for my third vote. Leaning Paul just because the postseason was definitely top ten for a guard (you know, in a “one per player” format), but liable to make a late switch. I did promise to give three votes to Nash back when.

After those two, probably looking at 2019 Giannis and 1992 Malone. Then I expect it will be onto the old guys (with the expectation Mikan will have already been admitted): 1963 Pettit, 1969-70 Reed, and 1975 Gilmore (if 70sFan is willing to help make the case why he was just as good as or better than peak Reed). Davis is certainly in the discussion as well, but his middling 2018 performance against the Warriors puts him at a major disadvantage in my eyes. And with playoffs in mind, was he even necessarily better than Jokic was this past year?

EDIT: I suppose Harden is an option as well, but his comparative case is difficult for me. Not in the sense that he necessarily fares poorly (it depends what you value), but in the sense I have no idea how to compare him with someone like Pettit or Reed. But I guess I cannot really say those guys were better than peak Mikan, so the era comparisons are already a mess.

EDIT2: Been thinking about 1961 Baylor, but my issue is he never really did well against the Celtics (hence why 1961 is his postseason peak — he lost too early to face them). So he drops down a fair bit for me. Reed and Pettit were both capable of maintaining with a reasonable degree of efficiency against Russell, and I think I would take Harden’s performances over Baylor’s. To say nothing of Davis’s massive defensive advantage.

[freethedevil]

2019 giannis
-> anchored a historically great team on both ends, both as the primary facilitator, defensive anchor, and scoring weapon. It took an atg championship winning defense giving him the pistons treatment to stop him and even then it was by the slimmest of margins. His decimation of a strong celtics defense was quite impressive as well. His passing limitations cost him vs the raptors but no one yet to be listed is strong enough of an offensive threat to warrant anything close to the defensive attention giannis warranted and when you add that to being one of the game's best scorers and a top 5 defender, you get a worthy pick for this spot. He has the highest corp +/- evaluation and the highest corp.


07 Nash. Led an atg offense and i boost him over 05 nash due to suns nash playing a healthy duncan.

not sure who to vote for 3, i'll let other people sway jme.

[penbeast0]

Mikan 49 -- yes, truly weak era but also one of the 5 most dominant players of all time relative to his era.
Mikan 50 -- Don't know if 49 was truly better than 50 or not, still dominant
Barry 75 -- yes, this is the second weakest era in NBA history and yes, he's an arrogant, egotistical jerk who didn't play much defense but, until the Bad Boy Pistons, this is also the ONLY NBA champion without a HOF center and it really was Barry and a supporting cast. There were guys with talent who weren't there yet (Wilkes, Phil Smith, etc.) and good journeymen (Cliff Ray, Butch Beard, etc.) but he was the man and this run was legendary

[trex_8063]

Personally, I don't even think '19 was Kawhi's best year (I'd have gone with '17 or maybe '16). Oh well......team narratives, more recent. Anyway.....

1st ballot - '15 Chris Paul - Wicked efficiency (both in terms of shooting and turnover economy) while leading a top-tier offense, and also being one of the best defensive PG's in the game. Played brilliantly in the playoffs, too, the only blemished being that he missed two playoff games [and did that cost them something?]; which was ironic, given he didn't miss a single game in the long rs.
I could see going for '08, but I just feel his defense was better in the later portions of his career, and his on-court impact has perhaps never looked better than in '15.


2nd ballot - '08 Chris Paul - More explosive, better athlete than his '15 version, which left him with better endurance and ability to penetrate the paint. But he wasn't yet the mid-range shooter that he was in '15, nor did he yet have the defensive IQ that he would in '15. Those are the primary reasons I put this season a pinch behind '15.


3rd ballot - '19 Giannis Antetokounmpo - I don't have a ton of time just now, but suffice to say he was a fairly dominant offensive player during the rs (still easily and All-Star level offensive player in the playoffs, too), while arguably being a top 2 DPOY candidate thru the whole season.

HM's I could potentially switch my 3rd ballot to: Anthony Davis, Karl Malone, James Harden, Dwight Howard, or perhaps McAdoo, Nash, Pettit, Baylor, or Gilmore.

[LA Bird]

I have been wondering for a while: is there a reason you stopped voting? I know you voted for Durant that one time to avoid an extension, but otherwise you have basically stayed out of it since... Magic? Which seems odd to me, because your opinion matters regardless of whether you moderate this, and trex was very active with his moderation back when. Especially now that discussion is dying down, it helps the sample be more representative of the forum as a whole if your voice is part of it.

Detailed writeups take time to write and I have been regularly traveling the last two months. I haven't posted much on RealGM outside of this project either for quite a while. I can add a simple one line vote each round if I want but I feel that as the commissioner, I would be letting the project down if I just did the bare minimum to get my own vote to count. Also, with how close many of the rounds have been, I am wary of the potential conflicts of interest as commissioner and the possibility for manipulation. It just seems easier to steer clear of any potential troubles by remaining as an independent observer instead of an active voter.

I do have more time on my hand this month though so I will probably vote more in the upcoming rounds.

[Morb]

Goys, check CP3 2008 stats, really.
1. Bob McAdoo 1975 - Scoring Machine, shooting 6'10, rebounds, historically great series vs DRtg 91.3 (-6.4). Wow.
2. Chris Paul 2008 - Top 3 PG Peak, assists, tempo, midrange, quickness, low tovs, great series vs DRtg 106.1 (-1.4) and good series vs DRtg 101.8 (-5.7).
3. Anthony Davis 2018 - Offense + Defense, 6'11, midrange, 34% threes, 83% FT, athletic, great series vs DRtg 106.4 (-2.2) and good series vs DRtg 107.6 (-1.0).

[liamliam1234]

Thanks for the response, LA, and good to hear!

1. 2007 Steve Nash
2. 2005 Steve Nash
Choosing both over 2006 because that postseason felt comparatively less impressive, with its argument mostly stemming from individual shooting efficiency. Choosing 2007 over 2005 because I (and his team) value the passing peak of the 2007 postseason more than the scoring peak of the 2005 postseason (and either way he lost to the would-be-champion Spurs). A far, far more thorough explanation of his value, especially in 2007, is linked in the below spoiler:

Spoiler:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=78458769&sid=ce4140e8382c9d2e962dd65db4fc358c#p78458769

And some comparative impact statistics available here:

Spoiler:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1892754#p78550299

3. 2008 Chris Paul
Past the point of quibbling. Spectacular box score season, with an all-time great postseason which fell just short of upsetting the defending champions and perpetual top two team in the league.

After this, I think I might start fiddling around with comparative in-season rankings and see if that gets me anywhere. Probably will not, but who knows.

Also, glad to see that Cecil seems likely to finally have his Mikan support pay off, haha. Definitely a deserved inclusion into the top thirty; I think I am basically as low on his era translation as someone should be, and I still would not want him lower than 32 or 33. And in a meta sense, it is pretty hilarious to look at his ranking on the All-Time Greatest project, based on six years of play, and then see him fare notably worse in a project only focusing on peak play.

EDIT: Trex, I think most of us acknowledge 2017 could/should have been Kawhi’s peak, but a major postseason injury is pretty prohibitive. I have generally not seen you really pushing for guys who only “peaked” in seasons in which they only played fifty regular season games, right?

[liamliam1234]

So, about Gilmore:

The ABA aspect definitely makes him more difficult to compare, even beyond the era issues. But, much like how Erving did not lose too much ground in the NBA one year past his peak, I think it is telling how Gilmore translated to the NBA two years past what was ostensibly his own peak.

- Fourth in rebounds per game, behind three guys already voted in (peak Kareem, peak Walton, young Moses), and fourth in rebound percentage (with Swen Nater semi-poetically “replacing” Kareem).

- Fourth in blocks per game, behind Walton, Kareem, and Hayes.

- Fifth in PER, behind Kareem, Lanier, Walton, and McAdoo.

- Fourth in basketball-reference’s defensive rating, behind, uh, Bobby Jones, and Walton and Kareem.

- Fifth in WS/48, behind Kareem, Bobby Jones, Walton, and Dan Issel (raising red flags to me, seeing as he and Jones were on the same team).

- Fifth in VORP, behind Kareem, Bobby Jones, Walton, and Erving, and sixth in basketball reference’s BPM (with Lanier replacing Erving and Alvan Adams — ?? — coming in at fifth).

- Anchored the league’s second-best defence (albeit narrowly, in a highly clustered year).

- Oversaw a +3.8 overall improvement in the Bulls.

- Outscored (on better efficiency) and out-rebounded Walton head-to-head in their short playoff series against each other.

I think it is a good profile for someone ostensibly in decline. Still was a top five-player that season, and seeing as Bobby Jones and Lanier were generally not considered better players throughout their ABA years, probably more likely he was third behind the peaks of two players voted into the top thirteen. And obviously his physical tools are just generally top-tier. But I know discussion on him is quite a challenge, for understandable reasons.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Personally, I don't even think '19 was Kawhi's best year (I'd have gone with '17 or maybe '16). Oh well......team narratives, more recent. Anyway.....

1st ballot - '15 Chris Paul - Wicked efficiency (both in terms of shooting and turnover economy) while leading a top-tier offense, and also being one of the best defensive PG's in the game. Played brilliantly in the playoffs, too, the only blemished being that he missed two playoff games [and did that cost them something?]; which was ironic, given he didn't miss a single game in the long rs.
I could see going for '08, but I just feel his defense was better in the later portions of his career, and his on-court impact has perhaps never looked better than in '15.


2nd ballot - '08 Chris Paul - More explosive, better athlete than his '15 version, which left him with better endurance and ability to penetrate the paint. But he wasn't yet the mid-range shooter that he was in '15, nor did he yet have the defensive IQ that he would in '15. Those are the primary reasons I put this season a pinch behind '15.


3rd ballot - '19 Giannis Antetokounmpo - I don't have a ton of time just now, but suffice to say he was a fairly dominant offensive player during the rs (still easily and All-Star level offensive player in the playoffs, too), while arguably being a top 2 DPOY candidate thru the whole season.

HM's I could potentially switch my 3rd ballot to: Anthony Davis, Karl Malone, James Harden, Dwight Howard, or perhaps McAdoo, Nash, Pettit, Baylor, or Gilmore.

Playoffs 2016 2nd round for Kawhi: Was not his teams leading scorer
Playoffs 2017 2nd round for Kawhi: Did not play in closeout game
Playoffs 2019 2nd round for Kawhi: 41 PPG in 3\4 wins and was the only player to score in about half the 4th quarter of game 7

I see a huge gap there and than taking in consideration what he did to the MVP Giannis and eliminating Curry\Klay\Dray. It's easily 2019.

[cecilthesheep]

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 2007 Steve Nash. I'd just rather have this guy to win a title with than anyone left. Very very close with some version of Ewing and with '97 Karl Malone, but the way Nash totally transforms an offense is not something that anyone remaining in this tier can do on either end, in that I think if you have this version of Nash your offense is guaranteed to be one of the best in the league.

I'm glad Mikan's gaining a little traction haha. I was prepared to have him taking up my first two spots until the end of the project

[E-Balla]

1. 1975 Bob McAdoo -

Spoiler:

Buffalo won 49 games and was 5th in SRS in 75. McAdoo [led] the 4th (+2.1) [ranked offense]. McAdoo just so happened to play in the East (where 49 wins got them the 3rd seed and a matchup with Washington in their only round).

McAdoo was the follow up to Dolph Schayes (who was a 90% freethrow shooter in the 60s... insane) and the 2nd great shooting big man. Seriously this is his 50 point game 4 against Washington the day he was announced MVP and he only scores off 8 combined dunks/layups (I'm counting shot attempts he was fouled on too).

Watch on YouTube

Most of his jumpers were either contested turnarounds or out near the 3 point line (21+ feet out). McAdoo was basically Dirk before Dirk and when watching him play it's not hard to imagine him being as accomplished as Dirk if he played in a league more suited to outside play. He could handle the ball but it wasn't until 76 he became a better ball handler and playmaker but his jumper never fell as much as in 75 so he was never as effective overall. Defensively he was a quick guy with the ability to hit the boards hard and decent shot blocking ability. He's a natural PF but played C and was able to hold his own leading Buffalo to an average defense.

[In the playoffs] McAdoo scored 34+ in all 7 games against Washington's #1 defense averaging 37.4 ppg on 53 TS% while leading a +5.6 offense. Meanwhile the Braves defense played bad, but not horrible so I don't have a reason to believe McAdoo played bad on that end in a series where he averaged 2.7 bpg, 9.9 DRBs a night, and 0.9 spg. They had no business going to 7 but they did and they did it with Randy Smith and Jim McMillan being the only other above averaged players on the team.

2. 75 Barry -

Spoiler:

Golden State won 48 games and was 4th. Barry led the 1st ranked offense (+2.7). Barry [played] in the West (where 48 wins got them the 1st seed and they only saw Washington in the Finals).

Rick Barry on the other hand is arguably the best jump shooting wing of the pre 3 point line era. Not the most accurate shooter, but in terms of getting his shot off he was easily #1 and a precursor to the Kobe Bryant, late MJ style of play. He started off as a scoring forward averaging 31/10/3 in his first 2 NBA seasons before getting shipped to the ABA where he kept that same role in Oakland and Washington. Because of the lack of strength in the league at the time and the increased spacing he was the most efficient player by far in the ABA. He then switched teams and finally became a point forward and his efficiency plummeted. Barry was never inefficient going forward but he was never well above average efficiency in the point forward role because he was a bit of a chucker known for taking many pullup jumpers. He was a very good passer placing top 6 in assists 4 times (same amount as LeBron to compare). I'd easily put him in any list of top 3 passing SFs alongside Bird, and Hill. Around this time he became a 90-94% FT shooter too (he shot 92% on FTs from 75 on) and in 1980 as he was falling out of the league, old, and only averaging 12 ppg he was 2nd in 3s made and attempted while shooting 33% from deep in only 25 mpg. Brian Taylor, Downtown Freddie Brown, and Larry Bird were probably the only shooters better league wide. In 75 he also led the league in steals and while he wasn't known for his defense he was a pest on that end causing turnovers and creating easy buckets. Early in his career he was a clear negative on that end but in the mid 70s he started playing defense and it benefitted him tremendously.

The real reason I have so much love for Barry is his passing though. He's Ginobili like with the ball in his hands consistently making amazing plays. This is from ElGee's top 40 list but it's a compilation of Barry's passes in one game.

Watch on YouTube

According to ElGee he only missed one opportunity to make a high quality pass all game. Basically in the modern game I see him as a Manu Ginobili with Kobe's approach to the game.

Barry didn't play as well offensively as McAdoo but he still averaged 29.5 ppg on 52.2 TS% in a very low scoring series alongside 3.5 spg while sweeping Washington to win the NBA Finals. This is especially notable because outside of ROTY Jamaal Wilkes and Clifford Ray they had no other above average players on the roster. He was so much better than the next guy on his team he played 40% more minutes than them. Alongside Hakeem and Dirk, Barry is seen as the player most see as one of the few players to drag a not that good team to a Finals win.

3. 99 Alonzo Mourning -

Spoiler:

I've been alluding to how great and underrated Zo is but I haven't made a full post on it yet. It's pretty odd that looking around you can find write ups either here or from blogs about other players. There's nothing on Zo. I mean articles from professionals from back in the day exist but for some reason I can't find any breakdowns on Zo which is a shame because his impact was tremendous and at his peak he was on the same level as young Duncan, arguably better than Malone who barely won MVP over him, and was comparable to Shaq at the time (who played no defense).

Offensively Zo had a basic post game, and a pretty reliable jumper out to 15 feet (it was shaky outside of that). That's basically all (of course he had the signature Georgetown running hook like Ewing did but it was meh). Most of his points were gained due to his immense physical advantages. His turnaround was money because of the speed of his spin, he got deep position easily with his strength and finished strong, and his faceup drives worked because he had a jumper you had to play while having one of the best first steps for any C ever (Dwight comes to mind as faster). Zo also wanted it, and he played like it. Got him to the line often and got him a decent amount of putbacks. He was undersized but I think that played to his advantage more especially in the post Shaq era. He was in a league environment where teams kept a big plodder on the floor or on the roster and when matched up with one he was unstoppable. He didn't even need his jumper against some of the bigger guys in league history.

Watch on YouTube

His handles weren't great, he wasn't a great mover laterally, he didn't have spin moves or a strong drop step, but he still managed to be a 19-23 ppg scorer on between +5-7 rTS% each of the first 8 years of his career and a 20 ppg on 55 TS% guy in the playoffs.

He didn't pass well at all but Miami in both 98 and 99 had a +2.5ish offense. They had a +2.4 offense in 98 against NY and a +0.9 in 99 against them (that's slight underrated because NY's defense came alive in the playoffs). All in all Zo wasn't great but he was definitely a good enough first option to give you a top 10 offense that would hold in the playoffs against some tough ass squads in tough ass series (arguably the toughest series' ever) if he was the centerpiece with a very good PG and decent third scorer (Tim and Mash).

Overall he averaged 20.1/11.0/1.6 with 3.9 bpg on +5.3 rTS% with a 107 ORTG in the regular season and 21.6/8.2/0.8 with 2.8 blocks and 1.6 steals per game on 57.1 TS% (+8.3 rTS%) with a 106 ORTG (+8 rORTG).

Defensively he's on the shortlist of the GOATs. He was DPOY back to back in 99 and 2000 and watching him it's obvious why. He was someone that chased shots but didn't seem to foul because his jump speed was so fast. Next to Bill Russell he's the most effective shot blocker ever. One thing I always noticed watching Zo is he kept the ball inbounds. If his back was to the basket he went straight up and only flicked his wrist. If he was behind the play he pinned it on the backboard. Either way he always found a way to keep it in play and I'm taking him as the best rim protector ever next to Deke. In this clip you can see exactly how fast he gets off the floor and how effortless it is for him.

Watch on YouTube

His only weakness was his lack of height. Unlike Ben Wallace who seemed to be able to overcome his height issues Zo was not a great man defender at all. Usually this isn't an issue but Zo played at the same time as numbers 4, 9, 18, and 23 on this list. The 4 guys with the highest single season PPG totals for any true C outside of Wilt and Kareem. In these clips you can see how Shaq dominates him at both player's arguable peaks.

Watch on YouTube

Hakeem (who was also undersized - he was listed at 7 feet but is barely taller than Dwight Howard who is 6-9 barefoot and 6-10 in sneakers) is the only one of those centers Zo played well and that's because with his speed and power he was the perfect counter to him. I'd argue no one ever played Hakeem as well as Zo did in the few times I've seen a game featuring the two. Overall he's a 10/10 rim defender, 10/10 help defender, and maybe a 7/10 man defender that still led -4 to -6 defenses at his best.

As far as the season goes it was a lockout but Miami won 33 of the 50 games, going 1-3 without Zo, and lost in a major first round upset to the eventual NBA Finalists while they still had their best player (because Ewing got hurt and they still made the Finals without him). I think that result is why this year is overlooked because Zo played amazing in that series while his team collapsed.

Zo averaged 21.6 ppg on 57.1 TS% like mentioned before but his team? Outside of him they scored 57.4 ppg on 47 TS%. Tim Hardaway went from averaging 17.4 ppg and 7.2 apg on 51.1 TS% with a 13.8 TOV% and 105 ORTG to 9.0 ppg and 6.4 apg on 35.7 TS% with a 22.2 TOV% and 74 ORTG in the series against NY. Without Zo dominating NY sweeps them instead of needing a lucky bounce on an H20 floater to win.

As far as his impact goes I'm not going to dig for the raw +/- numbers (screw NBA.com for ever taking them down) but Zo led the league in RAPM and his yearly finishes from 97 to 99 are:

97 - 7 (this is NPI)
98 - 2 (3rd in NPI)
99 - 1 (2nd in NPI)

TL;DR: Impact stats paint him as the impactful player of that 3 year stretch.

Basically we have it all here, just not the reputation, and that's something recent because in 99 he was runner up to MVP and in 2000 he was 3rd in MVP voting to Shaq and KG. The numbers hold up, the playoff performance holds up, the team strength success holds up (not in 99 specifically but form 97-00), the impact holds up. If it wasn't for his game being limited compared to the other star Cs of his time and him losing head to head matchups against all of them constantly (besides Hakeem) he'd be seen as on their level pretty clearly. As it is he's a half step behind them as the next best great true C if you ask me.

EDIT: And I forgot to mention Zo's impact as a leader. I'm not the biggest intangibles guy unless it bleeds on the floor and boy did it when Zo was out there. He's one of the toughest players ever (he would fight you if he needed to as JVG found out in 98), one of the most well respected players ever (so respected people forget what he did to the Raps to get back to Miami and just like him going back to Miami), and one of the players that played hardest in league history. If I made a short list of players with the most contagious energy in the floor Zo would probably be right under Magic, KG, and Westbrook as far as guys worthy of this list go. He always seemed to lead through big plays, big celebrations, and a crowd/team that exploded when he was ready for them to. I think it's a big part of why that Heat team was so successful and of course we all know while Wade was the best player on the 06 Heat and Zo didn't even start he was the soul of the team turning around each game when he hit the floor.

[E-Balla]

I'm not even going to speak on the **** that got Kawhi in over Mikan...

[No-more-rings]

I'm not even going to speak on the **** that got Kawhi in over Mikan...

Could be that Kawhi was flat out better..and the “dominance relative to era” thing is way overrated.

[E-Balla]

I'm not even going to speak on the **** that got Kawhi in over Mikan...

Could be that Kawhi was flat out better..and the “dominance relative to era” thing is way overrated.

No it was quite literally that a poster PM'd another poster that wasn't going to vote to put Kawhi over the edge. I have no issue with him getting in over Mikan. 2016 Kawhi was actually next up after Zo in the 27th spot on my personal list so he fell exactly where he's at on my personal list here.

[No-more-rings]

I'm not even going to speak on the **** that got Kawhi in over Mikan...

Could be that Kawhi was flat out better..and the “dominance relative to era” thing is way overrated.

No it was quite literally that a poster PM'd another poster that wasn't going to vote to put Kawhi over the edge. I have no issue with him getting in over Mikan. 2016 Kawhi was actually next up after Zo in the 27th spot on my personal list so he fell exactly where he's at on my personal list here.

Oh, that lol. To me there probably was no other poster.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Could be that Kawhi was flat out better..and the “dominance relative to era” thing is way overrated.

No it was quite literally that a poster PM'd another poster that wasn't going to vote to put Kawhi over the edge. I have no issue with him getting in over Mikan. 2016 Kawhi was actually next up after Zo in the 27th spot on my personal list so he fell exactly where he's at on my personal list here.

Oh, that lol. To me there probably was no other poster.

There was another poster that PM me, I was pissed about Kawhi not being in by now and wasn't even paying attention. 1 vote to get him in so I figure i do it. As soon as you asked who was, the poster messaged me asking not to say. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus but ya he's a raptors fan so I guess he wanted one of his guys in. Justice was served anyway.

[No-more-rings]

No it was quite literally that a poster PM'd another poster that wasn't going to vote to put Kawhi over the edge. I have no issue with him getting in over Mikan. 2016 Kawhi was actually next up after Zo in the 27th spot on my personal list so he fell exactly where he's at on my personal list here.

Oh, that lol. To me there probably was no other poster.

There was another poster that PM me, I was pissed about Kawhi not being in by now and wasn't even paying attention. 1 vote to get him in so I figure i do it. As soon as you asked who was, the poster messaged me asking not to say. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus but ya he's a raptors fan so I guess he wanted one of his guys in. Justice was served anyway.

Why doesn’t he just have the balls to come out and say it was him or vote for Kawhi himself? What would we do tar and feather him?