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Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread

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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#481 » by SfBull » Tue Oct 8, 2019 9:29 pm

sco wrote:
madvillian wrote:
ZOMG wrote:
Unlike this team, I’m bringing my A game right from the start!

I agree with you about Lauri. If you’d read what I wrote more carefully, you’d have noticed that. Anyway, to repeat: I’m disapponted by the fact that he doesn’t seem to have added anything to his game.

However, our ball movement still sucks and Markkanen still seems to be used as a pick and pop robot. He doesn’t really figure into the dribble-heavy offense unless a PnP is imminent.


Well at least you have a sense of humor about it.

I think there are some things to be concerned about after the game but they are on a team, not individual level for me.

1) Can the team actually shoot threes at a high enough percentage (say 36% as a team) to move into top 15 offensive efficiency? They shot 34.9% last year. A 1.1% boost should be doable but we'll see.

2) Where is the bench defense? With WCJR healthy, Porter and Santo/Dunn the starting lineup should be about average defensively. But when they go to the bench with guys like Val, Kornet, White and Gafford how's it going to be? If last night is a preview it will be really bad.

OU is 34 wins in vegas. That seems about right if they stay healthy maybe 40, if not, maybe 30.

And finally, on Lauri: I hope he's just taking it slowly because he didn't look great last night, physically or skills wise. I thought he shot looked a little smoother FWIW>


I actually thought Lauri looked good for him. I get that folks want him to be LeBron or Giannis at PF, but his strength is 3pt shooting. If he takes a lot of 3's and makes more than 36% of them, it is enough. It is the best way to score a lot of points efficiently. Off of that, he showed the ability to drive off of 3pt fakes. He is capable of bringing the ball up the court off of rebounds, but he doesn't need to be the primary play maker. It is about advancing the ball quickly and getting guys better shots before defenses set-up.

Ok,so you aren't on the fantasy of Lauri becoming an All Star this season right? Because he showed exactly the same game he played before which is good ( I really loved to see how he drove to the basket using the euro step and finishing smoothly against Buck's 2 bigs,he should play that way more).
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#482 » by weneeda2guard » Tue Oct 8, 2019 9:30 pm

MrSparkle wrote:We’re so far into this “Fire GarPax” thing that it’s beyond stale, but again, for perspective, we lost 60 games last year.

If their big pickup was a 6th man, then that’s the same as their big FA pickups (Thad and Sato).

And frankly Zach and Lauri are fringe 6th man, atleast on an elite team they’d probably not be starting unless they were 3rd/4th options.

So are we a team of 6th men? I seriously need to see Coby run with starters. It’s going to be painful if he’s averaging 15 mpg and DNPs into January. Painful.

Just dump Dunn already.


This is my concern with the roster. I know we been tanking but seriously, is there a real star on this roster or is lavine just the tall guy playing pick up with the midgets? (No offense to any midgets)

When we traded butler the theory besides being stuck with a supermax on our cap is we didnt want to be just a mediocre team. We wanted to really compete for a title. At this point I'm not even sure we have a legit playoff team. Lavine and lauri will have to make major leaps to carry us to success. Can they do it? Remains to be seen.

I'm one that believes this needs a short leash meaning give them this season to see if they at least have what it takes to win 42 games. If we competing all year and we still win only 30-35 games I think we should immediately go back to searching for a new core even trading either lavine or lauri or maybe both to get a legit star on this roster. I dont want a repeat of the baby bulls era where we began becoming locked into our roster due to having to give deals to Chandler, deng Kirk Hinrich etc. Hindsight is 20/20 but if we moved on from deng earlier then we could have had a situation where rose and noah would have been here on rookie deals going into the summer of 2010 with enough room to sign wade lebron and Bosh and wade and lebron have both admitted chicago was their 1st choice but we didnt have the money to add bosh. Deng contract was the hindrance. Kirk was too but we had to part with the 17th pick to unload it. Kirk and deng was never good enough to lead us to a title. If we part with them early we have the space to sign that big 3 plus had Noah and rose. We would have had a dynasty

I dont want to go with this so long where we handing new deals to lavine and lauri even Carter Jr and they are just not good enough to lead us anywhere. For context sake , deng and kirk etc were at least good enough to get us into the playoffs. I def believe it should be a short leash for guys who can't even do that
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#483 » by Hold That » Tue Oct 8, 2019 9:30 pm

GrowingHorns wrote:
Hold That wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
Nothing about Dunn's performance made me say "he's the future starting PG", but nothing about Sato, White, or Arci's night made me say that either.

And this is exactly why I say the starting PG role should be open competition until someone separates from the pack by there play.


I initially thought they would give Kris some burn in this pre-season games but we need to see Sato starting at least two of these games. The way he have played in his career tells me he's the most probable fit and i think after he starts few games it becomes evident. Also, a new guy for this team so it's not gonna be straight up well oiled machine, but man has all the tools to be the starter. I trust much more in him to make the right plays.

I agree would be nice to see how Sato looks with the starting unit. Feel like Sato Dunn and Coby should atleast get 1 or 2 games starting during the pre season.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#484 » by SfBull » Tue Oct 8, 2019 9:39 pm

logical_art wrote:
nomorezorro wrote:
JohnnyKILLroy wrote:Chicken Littles everywhere.


i generally think of myself as tilting toward pessimistic, but jesus there is an incredible amount of negative overreactions to one preseason game going on here

the entire point of training camp is to get players accustomed to the system they're going to be playing in for the next season. training camp began, like, a week ago. we're working a bunch of new players into the rotation, a handful of guys are hurt, it's an exhibition game. there is precious little of value to glean from what happened yesterday. we won't have much to go on after one regular season game. i cannot understand freaking out about the preseason opener.

and like, in general i don't get the point of following a professional sports team if you're not willing to entertain the notion there might be some good parts of the experience at the outset of a new season.


I don't understand your complaint. People are making positive and negative observations based on one preseason game. Should we refrain from all observations because its premature? Or only all negative ones? What is there then to talk about before the end of the season when everything is known with certainty?

What's the meaning of that thread? To discuss that one preseason game so I just can't see the point of people trying to stop negative evaluations, that's the basics of forums like that,to discuss games, players , teams and more.
That's what diehard fans do, they're fiercely critical and that's nice.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#485 » by MrSparkle » Tue Oct 8, 2019 9:59 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:We’re so far into this “Fire GarPax” thing that it’s beyond stale, but again, for perspective, we lost 60 games last year.

If their big pickup was a 6th man, then that’s the same as their big FA pickups (Thad and Sato).

And frankly Zach and Lauri are fringe 6th man, atleast on an elite team they’d probably not be starting unless they were 3rd/4th options.

So are we a team of 6th men? I seriously need to see Coby run with starters. It’s going to be painful if he’s averaging 15 mpg and DNPs into January. Painful.

Just dump Dunn already.


This is my concern with the roster. I know we been tanking but seriously, is there a real star on this roster or is lavine just the tall guy playing pick up with the midgets? (No offense to any midgets)

When we traded butler the theory besides being stuck with a supermax on our cap is we didnt want to be just a mediocre team. We wanted to really compete for a title. At this point I'm not even sure we have a legit playoff team. Lavine and lauri will have to make major leaps to carry us to success. Can they do it? Remains to be seen.

I'm one that believes this needs a short leash meaning give them this season to see if they at least have what it takes to win 42 games. If we competing all year and we still win only 30-35 games I think we should immediately go back to searching for a new core even trading either lavine or lauri or maybe both to get a legit star on this roster. I dont want a repeat of the baby bulls era where we began becoming locked into our roster due to having to give deals to Chandler, deng Kirk Hinrich etc. Hindsight is 20/20 but if we moved on from deng earlier then we could have had a situation where rose and noah would have been here on rookie deals going into the summer of 2010 with enough room to sign wade lebron and Bosh and wade and lebron have both admitted chicago was their 1st choice but we didnt have the money to add bosh. Deng contract was the hindrance. Kirk was too but we had to part with the 17th pick to unload it. Kirk and deng was never good enough to lead us to a title. If we part with them early we have the space to sign that big 3 plus had Noah and rose. We would have had a dynasty

I dont want to go with this so long where we handing new deals to lavine and lauri even Carter Jr and they are just not good enough to lead us anywhere. For context sake , deng and kirk etc were at least good enough to get us into the playoffs. I def believe it should be a short leash for guys who can't even do that


I agree 100%.

There is a world of difference between a player like 15-17 Jimmy and the guys we have. He struggled to lead a crap team.... but he got the Bulls to the playoffs with a little bit of catch-up when he hyper extended his knee for a quarter of the season.

Lauri and Zach are talents but man — the absolute epitome of 1-way players. They set the bar so low for their positional defending that we will throw an Episode 6 cgi George Lucas remaster Return of the Jedi victory party if Zach ends with a 0.0 neutral defensive rating.

Then you have Wendell, an undersized (6’9) medium-athlete defensive center in a league where 7’+ athletic centers are trending.

Can I cry now? Can we also be serious GarPax? This core has 0.01% championship odds even against the 2025 Lakers where LeBron is 40 years old and playing with son.

To backtrack, I actually think Lauri is an interesting player to build around, but they’re doing it all wrong. He needs a freak big center (like an Embiid, Drummond, even a McGee or Jordan) so that there is a dominant twin tower edge. And more importantly, he needs a PG to pass him the ball in his hot spots. Rondo, Rubio were there — they won’t win you tons of games, but they would’ve at least assisted his development and numbers.

It’s just a hodgepodge roster. They keep kinda doing this ‘Collect good players’ thing while missing the mark on the types that a Popovich would get and develop. They really don’t consider the fit of players they commit to. It kind of works in NBA 2K, but not in real life.

Otto-Zach-Lauri sharing playmaking duties sounds like a fantasy. I’d like to see 2 of those 3 lead an elite defense. Mind you, SG and PF are the most important defensive positions in the league after SF. Again, you only bypass bad defense there with a superstar scorer/playmaker, like Harden.

The one hope I had is Coby starts at point and has a trajectory half similar to D. Fox. If he’s proving incapable of even beginning real-time development at the point, against the lowly competition we have, then this roster and season is a wash. No doubt in my mind Otto/Thad/Zach/Lauri can push this team above 38 wins, but it’s gonna be ugly offense with suspect defense, and the future is going to be real shady knowing that our older ‘B-tier’ vets were largely responsible. Otto is a highlight of this roster, but if he commands the max next summer? :noway: Forget about it, the Bulls will be screwed - looking like a brutal dilemma. Overpay a fringe star or let go a big piece of the winning puzzle.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#486 » by bad knees » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:03 pm

LOL at the people drawing final conclusions about any player, or the team, based on the first preseason game. It's fine to critique what happened, but when you draw hard and fast, emotional, negative conclusions, based on literally the first game of the preseason, you lose all credibility.

Personally, I liked Coby's defense and aggressiveness. Same with Gafford. They both showed potential.

It was great, and surprising, to see Denzel playing, let alone making a few shots. There are minutes for him on this team.

Sato looked great on defense. I am looking forward to seeing him with the starters.

Thad looked old, and his shot is ugly. I will certainly give him more time, but his play was the greatest concern for me based on what I saw last night.

The other guys played pretty much as I expected they would do given that it is the first preseason game.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#487 » by TeamMan » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:24 pm





IMO Zach is going to be unleashed this year.

And Coby is not far behind him.

What I saw was great chemistry between Zach and Lauri.

These 3 players are going to be fun to watch.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#488 » by 2018C3 » Tue Oct 8, 2019 10:59 pm

weneeda2guard wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:We’re so far into this “Fire GarPax” thing that it’s beyond stale, but again, for perspective, we lost 60 games last year.

If their big pickup was a 6th man, then that’s the same as their big FA pickups (Thad and Sato).

And frankly Zach and Lauri are fringe 6th man, atleast on an elite team they’d probably not be starting unless they were 3rd/4th options.

So are we a team of 6th men? I seriously need to see Coby run with starters. It’s going to be painful if he’s averaging 15 mpg and DNPs into January. Painful.

Just dump Dunn already.


This is my concern with the roster. I know we been tanking but seriously, is there a real star on this roster or is lavine just the tall guy playing pick up with the midgets? (No offense to any midgets)

When we traded butler the theory besides being stuck with a supermax on our cap is we didnt want to be just a mediocre team. We wanted to really compete for a title. At this point I'm not even sure we have a legit playoff team. Lavine and lauri will have to make major leaps to carry us to success. Can they do it? Remains to be seen.

I'm one that believes this needs a short leash meaning give them this season to see if they at least have what it takes to win 42 games. If we competing all year and we still win only 30-35 games I think we should immediately go back to searching for a new core even trading either lavine or lauri or maybe both to get a legit star on this roster. I dont want a repeat of the baby bulls era where we began becoming locked into our roster due to having to give deals to Chandler, deng Kirk Hinrich etc. Hindsight is 20/20 but if we moved on from deng earlier then we could have had a situation where rose and noah would have been here on rookie deals going into the summer of 2010 with enough room to sign wade lebron and Bosh and wade and lebron have both admitted chicago was their 1st choice but we didnt have the money to add bosh. Deng contract was the hindrance. Kirk was too but we had to part with the 17th pick to unload it. Kirk and deng was never good enough to lead us to a title. If we part with them early we have the space to sign that big 3 plus had Noah and rose. We would have had a dynasty

I dont want to go with this so long where we handing new deals to lavine and lauri even Carter Jr and they are just not good enough to lead us anywhere. For context sake , deng and kirk etc were at least good enough to get us into the playoffs. I def believe it should be a short leash for guys who can't even do that


What absolutely killed our last chances was holding on to Rose to long, (for me thats forgivable). All those Thibs teams were built around a scoring gaurd which Rose was great at. but once he went out over looked gaurds did pretty well in his place, and the organization was able to remain competitive. If those team brought in just one solid starter qaulity player in his place, the story may have turned out different.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#489 » by Indomitable » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:00 pm

2018C3 wrote:
weneeda2guard wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:We’re so far into this “Fire GarPax” thing that it’s beyond stale, but again, for perspective, we lost 60 games last year.

If their big pickup was a 6th man, then that’s the same as their big FA pickups (Thad and Sato).

And frankly Zach and Lauri are fringe 6th man, atleast on an elite team they’d probably not be starting unless they were 3rd/4th options.

So are we a team of 6th men? I seriously need to see Coby run with starters. It’s going to be painful if he’s averaging 15 mpg and DNPs into January. Painful.

Just dump Dunn already.


This is my concern with the roster. I know we been tanking but seriously, is there a real star on this roster or is lavine just the tall guy playing pick up with the midgets? (No offense to any midgets)

When we traded butler the theory besides being stuck with a supermax on our cap is we didnt want to be just a mediocre team. We wanted to really compete for a title. At this point I'm not even sure we have a legit playoff team. Lavine and lauri will have to make major leaps to carry us to success. Can they do it? Remains to be seen.

I'm one that believes this needs a short leash meaning give them this season to see if they at least have what it takes to win 42 games. If we competing all year and we still win only 30-35 games I think we should immediately go back to searching for a new core even trading either lavine or lauri or maybe both to get a legit star on this roster. I dont want a repeat of the baby bulls era where we began becoming locked into our roster due to having to give deals to Chandler, deng Kirk Hinrich etc. Hindsight is 20/20 but if we moved on from deng earlier then we could have had a situation where rose and noah would have been here on rookie deals going into the summer of 2010 with enough room to sign wade lebron and Bosh and wade and lebron have both admitted chicago was their 1st choice but we didnt have the money to add bosh. Deng contract was the hindrance. Kirk was too but we had to part with the 17th pick to unload it. Kirk and deng was never good enough to lead us to a title. If we part with them early we have the space to sign that big 3 plus had Noah and rose. We would have had a dynasty

I dont want to go with this so long where we handing new deals to lavine and lauri even Carter Jr and they are just not good enough to lead us anywhere. For context sake , deng and kirk etc were at least good enough to get us into the playoffs. I def believe it should be a short leash for guys who can't even do that


What absolutely killed our last chances was holding on to Rose to long, (for me thats forgivable). All those Skiles teams were built around a scoring gaurd which Rose was great at. but once he went out over looked gaurds did pretty well in his place, and the organization was able to remain competitive. If those team brought in kust one solid starter qaulity player in his place, the story may have turned out different.

You realize Rose never played for Skiles
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#490 » by 2018C3 » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:01 pm

You caught me, I tried to change it to thibs before anyone noticed.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#491 » by kulaz3000 » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:27 pm

I'm actually higher on Coby after his first preseason showing.

I was concerned that his athletisim and speed only stood out on the college level, but it seems to translate well on the NBA level which is great.

Despite him being a rookie, he is strong and solid, which will serve him well through a long season. That doesn't mean he will be able to dodge the rookie wall, but it's a good indication that we won't have to worry about his fitness as a point of concern in his career, as he already seems to have that aspect down pat.

The point guard position is one of the more difficult and time consuming positions to learn and be comfortable with, but what I liked is that he remained aggressive, and wasn't tentative. I would have been a lot down on him, if he looked passive and wasn't sure of himself. Him having a little tunnel vision is fine at this point, as he is still looking to do something, as opposed to looking scared.

He has a long ways to go to be a reliable point guard, but I do feel he has the tools and mentality, to be a lead guard in the NBA. It will just take some time and patience, but I'm quietly optimistic that he could end up being a lot better than many of us thought he would be.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#492 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:28 pm

So... I had to teach a class last night and watched this late. At a point where it was 12-6 and Felicio had 4 of our points I figured I wouldn’t learn much from the game. It was late I turned it off. Is it worth watching the rest of this?
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#493 » by Electric Slim » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:32 pm

Michael Jackson wrote:So... I had to teach a class last night and watched this late. At a point where it was 12-6 and Felicio had 4 of our points I figured I wouldn’t learn much from the game. It was late I turned it off. Is it worth watching the rest of this?

Not really. I'd just check out the next game.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#494 » by Michael Jackson » Tue Oct 8, 2019 11:35 pm

TeamMan wrote:



IMO Zach is going to be unleashed this year.

And Coby is not far behind him.

What I saw was great chemistry between Zach and Lauri.

These 3 players are going to be fun to watch.



Ok watched the highlights of White. I like that he looks like he belongs. His shots are within the flow of the game and he has confidence in it. Not cockiness either. Obviously his shooting has to get better but I mean watch him take a jump shot compared to Simmons and it is night and day with body language. Now I do not think he looks like a franchise player but he can be a good guard for us. He is a NBA player at least which we had too few of last year. He seems like a good 7 pick in a crappy draft.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#495 » by DASMACKDOWN » Wed Oct 9, 2019 12:18 am

The thing for me, as much as I liked what I saw from some of the guys, I still seriously worry about the offense.

We have been ranked 28 and 29 the last two years on offense. We have to find a way to always create easy shots. Its just too far in between where guys are getting clean open looks. We work too hard to get mediocre looks at the basket. And it seems everyone else that plays us routinely makes a simple drive and someone is wide open.

We do need to improve our defense yes. But if we cant constantly score, the team will be home watching the playoffs like the rest of us.

This is why I have high hopes for someone like Coby White. Because he looks like he will eventually tick a lot of boxes for us. Especially him attacking the basket and getting to the free throw line. For a team that other than Zach barely sniffs the line, its a huge addition. And the thought that if Wendell can be the pick and finisher up top, you can have a really potent lineup of attackers and shooters.

I hope we see something better next game. Hopefully Wendell plays. If anything I would ilke to see DG start which would be similar to if Wendell started.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#496 » by MeloRoseNoah » Wed Oct 9, 2019 12:25 am

Two encouraging things:

1) The Zach Lavine and Lauri pick and roll staple seems to be on for this game. I have been clamoring for this go to set at the key for the past 3 years considering Zach and Lauri elite shooting and finishing ability. Both Lauri and Zach are going to tear the NBA a new one. Other guys need to feed off this set instead of ballhogging the ball and trying to get their own in previous years with Bobby Portis Parker and Dunn.

2) Coby White looks elite in term of his agility. He will be a very good guard in this league, potentially a top 5-10 pg in the NBA
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#497 » by FriedRise » Wed Oct 9, 2019 12:26 am

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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#498 » by Chi town » Wed Oct 9, 2019 1:11 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:The thing for me, as much as I liked what I saw from some of the guys, I still seriously worry about the offense.

We have been ranked 28 and 29 the last two years on offense. We have to find a way to always create easy shots. Its just too far in between where guys are getting clean open looks. We work too hard to get mediocre looks at the basket. And it seems everyone else that plays us routinely makes a simple drive and someone is wide open.

We do need to improve our defense yes. But if we cant constantly score, the team will be home watching the playoffs like the rest of us.

This is why I have high hopes for someone like Coby White. Because he looks like he will eventually tick a lot of boxes for us. Especially him attacking the basket and getting to the free throw line. For a team that other than Zach barely sniffs the line, its a huge addition. And the thought that if Wendell can be the pick and finisher up top, you can have a really potent lineup of attackers and shooters.

I hope we see something better next game. Hopefully Wendell plays. If anything I would ilke to see DG start which would be similar to if Wendell started.


The improved defense will lead to better offense.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#499 » by Showtime23 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 1:18 am

DASMACKDOWN wrote:The thing for me, as much as I liked what I saw from some of the guys, I still seriously worry about the offense.

We have been ranked 28 and 29 the last two years on offense. We have to find a way to always create easy shots. Its just too far in between where guys are getting clean open looks. We work too hard to get mediocre looks at the basket. And it seems everyone else that plays us routinely makes a simple drive and someone is wide open.

We do need to improve our defense yes. But if we cant constantly score, the team will be home watching the playoffs like the rest of us.

This is why I have high hopes for someone like Coby White. Because he looks like he will eventually tick a lot of boxes for us. Especially him attacking the basket and getting to the free throw line. For a team that other than Zach barely sniffs the line, its a huge addition. And the thought that if Wendell can be the pick and finisher up top, you can have a really potent lineup of attackers and shooters.

I hope we see something better next game. Hopefully Wendell plays. If anything I would ilke to see DG start which would be similar to if Wendell started.


Too much iso plays from Dunn and Lavine which probably made the offensive ranking one of the worst besides G league talent rotting on the bench. The Bulls pretty much drafted White out of desperation to address these needs so while I understand their concern, this is the wrong strategy to opt for when BPA is the way to go. (with Hachimura, Reddish available)

I think too many fans are putting high expectations on White when he is very raw and years away from making meaningful contributions.
He is just not at the talent level of Mitchell, Fox to make things happen at yr1,2.
Same with WCJ who will take 3 yrs to be the miniature version of Horford we all expect.
Generally from a teambuilding standpoint, I do not like waiting out 3+ yrs regardless of their ceiling bc you have to cash out a lot of money for future production.
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Re: Bulls vs. Bucks Preseason #1 Game Thread 

Post#500 » by madvillian » Wed Oct 9, 2019 1:27 am

FriedRise wrote:
Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter


It's funny Boylen is actually the coach Hoiberg was supposed to be.
dumbell78 wrote:Random comment....Mikal Bridges stroke is dripping right now in summer league. Carry on.


I'll go ahead and make a sig bet that Mikal is better by RPM this year than Zach.

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