Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[Kanyewest]

Also, can Congress do anything to stop this vile turnabout against the Kurds? They're being left for slaughter.

No. Blame the **** that voted for Trump and the ones that sat home because Clinton didn’t “inspire” them or they deluded themselves she was the same as Trump.

But e-mails.

[G R E Y]

Also, can Congress do anything to stop this vile turnabout against the Kurds? They're being left for slaughter.

No. Blame the **** that voted for Trump and the ones that sat home because Clinton didn’t “inspire” them or they deluded themselves she was the same as Trump.

That's one aspect, and another is those who continue to support him publicly despite private misgivings. Turkey's already bombing the Syrian border in the north. So Trump will tweet his warnings and maybe send some troops back when it'll be too late. It's a **** travesty of the highest degree. He betrayed vulnerable people dependent on US support and they will die because of it. I'm **** incensed. And blithering R followers who support him in every way are surprised at the turnabout despite their support when the only consistent action has been appeasing Russia since before his office began. Madness. It needs to end.

[Pointgod]

https://nypost.com/2019/10/08/eu-ambassador-gordon-sondland-barred-from-testifying-in-house-impeachment-inquiry/

Never saw that coming.

Same old Trump playbook, tell people you want the whole story to come out
then do everything on earth to prevent that from happening.

call me...

another example of why one should not assume just because someone is rich
that they are also smart. Hilarious his $1M donation to Trump is going to
cost him so much more than that.

Will it though? I haven't seen anyone held accountable and I don't see that happening anytime soon. If there's one thing I've learned over the past 3 years is that the much praised "Checks and Balances" was a laughable joke. The republican party is rotten to its core, the democratic party is fleckless and incompetent and half the population is frighteningly uneducated with fascist inclinations.

This country is f*cked.

I don’t think this gets talked about enough. The only thing keeping the US from turning into an autocracy was basically previous Presidents respect for the power of the office. The framers farsaw a corrupt President, but they didn’t foresee a completely corrupt party, judiciary branch, Congress, propaganda news etc. To think the only thing keeping guys like Bill Clinton, Bush and Obama from just doing whatever they want as President was a handshake agreement to play nice.

[queridiculo]

I don’t think this gets talked about enough. The only thing keeping the US from turning into an autocracy was basically previous Presidents respect for the power of the office. The framers farsaw a corrupt President, but they didn’t foresee a completely corrupt party, judiciary branch, Congress, propaganda news etc. To think the only thing keeping guys like Bill Clinton, Bush and Obama from just doing whatever they want as President was a handshake agreement to play nice.

At this point I think it's fair to ask, does the GOP believe in democracy?

Seems to me like their MO is to subvert every basic tenet of a democratic society whenever and wherever it interferes with their ideology or ability to stay in/or exert power.

What we are seeing right now is basically a culture war.

The republican party is not interested in governing, this is about a competing world view and setting the stage for making their distorted reality a real life nightmare for everybody.

[dckingsfan]

I don’t think this gets talked about enough. The only thing keeping the US from turning into an autocracy was basically previous Presidents respect for the power of the office. The framers farsaw a corrupt President, but they didn’t foresee a completely corrupt party, judiciary branch, Congress, propaganda news etc. To think the only thing keeping guys like Bill Clinton, Bush and Obama from just doing whatever they want as President was a handshake agreement to play nice.

At this point I think it's fair to ask, does the GOP believe in democracy?

Seems to me like their MO is to subvert every basic tenet of a democratic society whenever and wherever it interferes with their ideology or ability to stay in/or exert power.

What we are seeing right now is basically a culture war.

The republican party is not interested in governing, this is about a competing world view and setting the stage for making their distorted reality a real life nightmare for everybody.

At this point, what is the Republican Party and what are there stances?

It seems that there only stance right now is - we aren't the Democrats and don't support their positions.

[I_Like_Dirt]

At this point, what is the Republican Party and what are there stances?

It seems that there only stance right now is - we aren't the Democrats and don't support their positions.

They have loads of stances. They've just run out of ground to say them out loud. It's tough lumping everyone together, but as a collective, you have racism, isolationism, handouts for the wealthy, mocking people who care and try to change the world for the better, enriching regardless of the cost to anyone else, and lots and lots of branding. They just can't campaign on stuff like that (other than the branding) because even though they largely understand all that stuff comes part and parcel, they can't admit it publicly because then they'd have to own it so they devolve to not being the Democrats and attacking their positions.

It's also interesting to watch trade wars with China only to roll back the international presence essentially given China more wealth and power in the process for free. Chinese leadership has to be laughing about this internally. And I don't mean messing in war zones. I mean supporting peace zones to prevent war zones.

[dckingsfan]

At this point, what is the Republican Party and what are there stances?

It seems that there only stance right now is - we aren't the Democrats and don't support their positions.

They have loads of stances. They've just run out of ground to say them out loud. It's tough lumping everyone together, but as a collective, you have racism, isolationism, handouts for the wealthy, mocking people who care and try to change the world for the better, enriching regardless of the cost to anyone else, and lots and lots of branding. They just can't campaign on stuff like that (other than the branding) because even though they largely understand all that stuff comes part and parcel, they can't admit it publicly because then they'd have to own it so they devolve to not being the Democrats and attacking their positions.

It's also interesting to watch trade wars with China only to roll back the international presence essentially given China more wealth and power in the process for free. Chinese leadership has to be laughing about this internally. And I don't mean messing in war zones. I mean supporting peace zones to prevent war zones.

I don't think they even collectively stand for that... I don't think they have any well formed thoughts left other than SCOTUS and protectionism (and that used to be the Ds battleground - think unions).

I am not equating Trump = Rs in this description. He will go away and then what are their stances?

[I_Like_Dirt]

I am not equating Trump = Rs in this description. He will go away and then what are their stances?

Trump and Rs definitely have their differences but what is Trump doing exactly that the Rs weren't essentially already doing or already stand for? They play on fear to enrich themselves for the most part. At the state and local levels, it can be different sometimes on a case by case basis but even those are tricky (they don't get to ignore that stuff just because the Democrats have their own problems). The SCOTUS is really a two-fold value to them: politicizing it helps them play on fear (babies are dying, you'll lose your guys, and immigrants are going to take your money somehow) and buys them cover from the judicial branch as they enrich themselves.

Where the Rs have their differ, really, is how they go about trying to enrich themselves and that makes for a certain amount of crossover and potential for conflict at times. It's still the same general theory and practice, though. Play on fear and get rich. If their supporters aren't afraid of it, they aren't going to address it and if they can somehow get rich off an issue they'll take massive steps to see that their supporters aren't afraid of it - see climate change.

[dckingsfan]

Trump and anyone is different. He only looks out for himself. You can't equate him to a party or set of policies.

State and local Rs tend to have a plan. But those aren't overarching plans they are plans for their local communities or states. The current Rs have no overarching plan or philosophy other than SCOTUS and protectionism. And note, most of the Billionaire population is now D.

They get their votes primarily from three issues and very loyal but different groups:

1) Protectionism - don't take our jobs (used to be a D issue)
2) SCOTUS and abortion
3) Against the D expansion of social programs

But that isn't a philosophy/strategy or go forward plan. That is why they can't lead.

[I_Like_Dirt]

They get their votes primarily from three issues and very loyal but different groups:

1) Protectionism - don't take our jobs (used to be a D issue)
2) SCOTUS and abortion
3) Against the D expansion of social programs

But that isn't a philosophy/strategy or go forward plan. That is why they can't lead.

They don't lead this way because the theme behind all that is self-enrichment. That's the theme behind all of those points you listed and then some. Protectionism is only in part about labor insofar as it gets them votes but is playing out entirely differently in practice. Despite all the climate protests and such, oil is still booming but there aren't as many workers as automation starts taking over. There is still the on-again off-again pipeline issue as though just constantly building more pipelines is some sort of long-term economic strategy. SCOTUS for abortion is another great way to get votes but it also quietly allows them to guide the economic/tax perspective of the top court. Against D expansion of social programs? Well, tearing down social programs is a great way to support getting rid of those pesky taxes and such they fight tooth and nail to pay. Leave me alone to get rich seems harmless on the surface until a person digs a bit deeper into how they're getting rich. Likewise, some Rs are deeply racist, I'm sure, but it's often entirely beside the point beyond a political avenue to buy support from people who hate immigrants for whatever reason so they can fight to cut social spending. They don't need cheap labor as much anymore now that automation is starting to slowly creep forward. If he wasn't black, 50 Cent would basically be their ideal spokesperson. Get rich or die trying!

[pancakes3]

Trump and Rs definitely have their differences but what is Trump doing exactly that the Rs weren't essentially already doing or already stand for?

re: "stand for"

Health care is diametrically opposed to the well being of their constituents. Universal health care is anathema to their "values", but the insurance industry has so perversed the health services industry in the sense that insurance companies and then consequentially employers acting as primary and secondary gatekeepers to free market access to those services is *really* anathema to the alleged Republican ideals of personal choice. When the R's say "we want personal choice" they want you to think that you have autonomy to decide what services you want when in fact you have no autonomy at all; you're subject to the whims of an industry cartel.

Climate denying is completely opposite of free market principals so that an entrenched, obsolete industry can exert their established market power to erect artificial barriers of entry to new, innovated ideas - the very heart of capitalism. The fact that fossil fuel companies can reap record profits at the expense of the environment is literally a textbook example of an industry reaping an unearned economic windfall by excusing them to realize the cost of external costs.

Abortion: pro-choice is in the name itself, I don't know what else there is to say.

Tariffs/protectionism: Again, econ 101 where barriers to trade are bad, free trade good.

Immigration: Yet again, econ 101 where free flow of labor is a core component of free trade.

I think most obvious, and one that is going unreported is how Trump can simultaneously push for ever-increasing military budgets but at the same time promote military isolationism. If we're not going to be the world's police and arsenal of freedom, why do we need to keep paying like we are? We're scaling back military operations while at the same time doubling down on military spending?

None of it makes a lick of sense.

[I_Like_Dirt]

It pretty much all makes sense when viewed through the lens of:

(1) Get rich
(2) Get power
(3) Keep power
(4) Get richer

[Ruzious]

https://nypost.com/2019/10/08/eu-ambassador-gordon-sondland-barred-from-testifying-in-house-impeachment-inquiry/

Never saw that coming.

Same old Trump playbook, tell people you want the whole story to come out
then do everything on earth to prevent that from happening.

call me...

another example of why one should not assume just because someone is rich
that they are also smart. Hilarious his $1M donation to Trump is going to
cost him so much more than that.

Will it though? I haven't seen anyone held accountable and I don't see that happening anytime soon. If there's one thing I've learned over the past 3 years is that the much praised "Checks and Balances" was a laughable joke. The republican party is rotten to its core, the democratic party is fleckless and incompetent and half the population is frighteningly uneducated with fascist inclinations.

This country is f*cked.

I don't think we have any idea of the long-term damage he's done to the country. He went so far out of bounds in so many ways... we can't grasp yet anywhere near the entirety of his horrible reign. And we need a way to show that it can't happen again. Honestly, I'd like to see him publicly executed with his family required to watch.

[dckingsfan]

They get their votes primarily from three issues and very loyal but different groups:

1) Protectionism - don't take our jobs (used to be a D issue)
2) SCOTUS and abortion
3) Against the D expansion of social programs

But that isn't a philosophy/strategy or go forward plan. That is why they can't lead.

They don't lead this way because the theme behind all that is self-enrichment. That's the theme behind all of those points you listed and then some. Protectionism is only in part about labor insofar as it gets them votes but is playing out entirely differently in practice. Despite all the climate protests and such, oil is still booming but there aren't as many workers as automation starts taking over. There is still the on-again off-again pipeline issue as though just constantly building more pipelines is some sort of long-term economic strategy. SCOTUS for abortion is another great way to get votes but it also quietly allows them to guide the economic/tax perspective of the top court. Against D expansion of social programs? Well, tearing down social programs is a great way to support getting rid of those pesky taxes and such they fight tooth and nail to pay. Leave me alone to get rich seems harmless on the surface until a person digs a bit deeper into how they're getting rich. Likewise, some Rs are deeply racist, I'm sure, but it's often entirely beside the point beyond a political avenue to buy support from people who hate immigrants for whatever reason so they can fight to cut social spending. They don't need cheap labor as much anymore now that automation is starting to slowly creep forward. If he wasn't black, 50 Cent would basically be their ideal spokesperson. Get rich or die trying!

Assume that means you agree?

[dckingsfan]

None of it makes a lick of sense.

It does if you aren't trying to lead... If you don't have goals - then everything will seem ad hoc - which is what we see from the R party of today.

They look at a voting tent if you will. Who can I get in the tent and what do I have to do to get them there. It isn't value or goal based. SCOTUS - check, fear about competition for your job - check, fear about new government programs - check.

We keep trying to put them in a box and are then confused by the results. We shouldn't be...

[Kanyewest]

Trump says he won't pay $500K for MN rally. He still owes DC $9M.
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/dc/president-trump-wont-pay-for-minneapolis-rally-still-owes-dc-9million/65-012b6e66-8942-44fb-b4a1-6229b69afe18

[Zonkerbl]

The whole idea behind capitalism is not that Socialism is wrong. Socialism correctly states that the large majority of people are altruistic and care about others. Arguably less than 10% of people are empathyless sociopaths. But this is a key point. Socialism implemented with 100% altruist people will work just fine. Socialism with just 5% sociopaths becomes a totalitarian nightmare.

Capitalism's main assumption is that sociopaths must be appeased with permission to accumulate obscene amounts of wealth because the alternative is that they enslave/exterminate us all. It's not that greed is good. It's that greed is better than the alternative.

What we're seeing now is late stage capitalism where accumulating obscene amounts of wealth is not enough to appease the sociopaths. The sociopaths' power must be *unlimited.*

[gtn130]

Trump and Rs definitely have their differences but what is Trump doing exactly that the Rs weren't essentially already doing or already stand for?

re: "stand for"

Health care is diametrically opposed to the well being of their constituents. Universal health care is anathema to their "values", but the insurance industry has so perversed the health services industry in the sense that insurance companies and then consequentially employers acting as primary and secondary gatekeepers to free market access to those services is *really* anathema to the alleged Republican ideals of personal choice. When the R's say "we want personal choice" they want you to think that you have autonomy to decide what services you want when in fact you have no autonomy at all; you're subject to the whims of an industry cartel.

Climate denying is completely opposite of free market principals so that an entrenched, obsolete industry can exert their established market power to erect artificial barriers of entry to new, innovated ideas - the very heart of capitalism. The fact that fossil fuel companies can reap record profits at the expense of the environment is literally a textbook example of an industry reaping an unearned economic windfall by excusing them to realize the cost of external costs.

Abortion: pro-choice is in the name itself, I don't know what else there is to say.

Tariffs/protectionism: Again, econ 101 where barriers to trade are bad, free trade good.

Immigration: Yet again, econ 101 where free flow of labor is a core component of free trade.

I think most obvious, and one that is going unreported is how Trump can simultaneously push for ever-increasing military budgets but at the same time promote military isolationism. If we're not going to be the world's police and arsenal of freedom, why do we need to keep paying like we are? We're scaling back military operations while at the same time doubling down on military spending?

None of it makes a lick of sense.

privatize healthcare = more money for donors
climate denial = more money for donors
abortion = red meat for the base
immigration = red meat for the base
military spending = both! Defense contractors win and the base loves it

Tariffs are narrowly a Trump thing that the GOP would have nothing to do with if they weren't beholden to the God Emperor Trump. Otherwise their entire platform is about giving rich people money by getting dumb people to vote against themselves.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Assume that means you agree?

From some of your other posts, it seems that way. I just think what they're doing is entirely rational. They have a clear goal and they're achieving it. That they're leveraging the fears of others, however disparate, to achieve those goals doesn't really distract me from that. This is all about a kleptocracy, trying to establish capital rights above human rights, and everyone trying to get their piece along the way. Capitalism is like a nuclear reactor. It needs loads of layers of protections in order to harness its power. Those layers of protection are being stripped away so that additional power can be harnessed in the short term.

[dckingsfan]

Assume that means you agree?

...That they're leveraging the fears of others, however disparate, to achieve those goals doesn't really distract me from that. This is all about a kleptocracy, trying to establish capital rights above human rights, and everyone trying to get their piece along the way...

No question - a fear tent to achieve their goals. And that tent has been annoyingly and irrationally resilient.