All known blocked shot data of Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain:

[70sFan]

I'm surprised, actually, that the averages aren't HIGHER. I personally saw a game against the old Cincinnati Royals in the Oscar era where I stopped counting after Wilt's 14th block.

Have you seen it in person or in TV?

[kendogg]

There is no video of it as not all games were recorded back then, but apparently in '66 (I believe) against the Pistons, Wilt blocked 26 shots.

There is video footage of the game in 1969 against the Suns (Wilt was 32) where he blocked 23 shots.

There are several other games where he unofficially recorded 20+ blocks.

I don't think people realize how long Wilt was. In modern shoes, he had the same standing reach as Rudy Gobert, who is the longest player in the league today. That is in addition to being 50-100lbs stronger than every center in the league currently, as well as probably faster (run speed wise he ran a 4.4 40' which is the same as LeBron), better leaper (40+ vert). He would be the most athletic center in the league today and it wouldn't be close.

Wilt might have had more block opportunities back then than today, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be the most dominant rim protector in any era. He was so athletic he could block DUNKS and did regularly. People would literally go flying off a block from him. He could CATCH BLOCKS ONE HANDED IN THE AIR and did so on a number of occasions.

[SkyHookFTW]

There is no video of it as not all games were recorded back then, but apparently in '66 (I believe) against the Pistons, Wilt blocked 26 shots.

There is video footage of the game in 1969 against the Suns (Wilt was 32) where he blocked 23 shots.

There are several other games where he unofficially recorded 20+ blocks.

I don't think people realize how long Wilt was. In modern shoes, he had the same standing reach as Rudy Gobert, who is the longest player in the league today. That is in addition to being 50-100lbs stronger than every center in the league currently, as well as probably faster (run speed wise he ran a 4.4 40' which is the same as LeBron), better leaper (40+ vert). He would be the most athletic center in the league today and it wouldn't be close.

Wilt might have had more block opportunities back then than today, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be the most dominant rim protector in any era. He was so athletic he could block DUNKS and did regularly. People would literally go flying off a block from him. He could CATCH BLOCKS ONE HANDED IN THE AIR and did so on a number of occasions.

I could never find evidence that Wilt ran a 4.4 40, but we have definite proof that during a workout for the NFL (AFL), Wilt, at 280 pounds, ran a 4.6 40 in bare feet. The Kansas City Chiefs wanted to sign him after he had a private workout with then-Chiefs coach NFL HoFer Hank Stram. This is from Stram himself:

"I had him stand under the crossbar of the goal posts. I told him I was going to throw the football a little above the bar. The first throw touched the bar and bounced on over. Wilt asked me if I wanted him to start catching the ball. . . .

"I threw again and he leaped up, flat-footed, and caught it. I kept throwing. After a bit he was catching the ball with one hand like he was wearing a baseball glove.

"How could you possibly defense him? You'd have to have a 7-foot defensive back. . . . I was all ready to sign him for the Kansas City Chiefs, but his basketball club had other plans for him."


For the record, some crazy defensive back or LB would probably have taken out his knees, as the NFL was rather brutal back in those days. The tallest receiver to make an impact in NFL history was 6'8" Harold Carmichael of the Eagles. He only player WR because he couldn't keep on enough weight to play at his original position, TE, and he was easy to leverage in the ground game due to his height.

[kendogg]

Whether its 4.4 or not he's still very fast for a center and I don't think anyone in the league is faster (at center). Unless you count someone like Giannis who can play center, then maybe but that's not even a given. Someone like KAT is probably quicker laterally than Wilt, but faster sprinter? I'm pretty sure Wilt wins. Not that I think speed is more important than quickness, but just trying to frame his athletic ability in terms of where I think he would stand against guys today.

[trex_8063]

There is no video of it as not all games were recorded back then, but apparently in '66 (I believe) against the Pistons, Wilt blocked 26 shots.

There is video footage of the game in 1969 against the Suns (Wilt was 32) where he blocked 23 shots.

There are several other games where he unofficially recorded 20+ blocks.

I don't think people realize how long Wilt was. In modern shoes, he had the same standing reach as Rudy Gobert, who is the longest player in the league today. That is in addition to being 50-100lbs stronger than every center in the league currently, as well as probably faster (run speed wise he ran a 4.4 40' which is the same as LeBron), better leaper (40+ vert). He would be the most athletic center in the league today and it wouldn't be close.

Wilt might have had more block opportunities back then than today, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be the most dominant rim protector in any era. He was so athletic he could block DUNKS and did regularly. People would literally go flying off a block from him. He could CATCH BLOCKS ONE HANDED IN THE AIR and did so on a number of occasions.

I could never find evidence that Wilt ran a 4.4 40, but we have definite proof that during a workout for the NFL (AFL), Wilt, at 280 pounds, ran a 4.6 40 in bare feet. The Kansas City Chiefs wanted to sign him after he had a private workout with then-Chiefs coach NFL HoFer Hank Stram. This is from Stram himself:

"I had him stand under the crossbar of the goal posts. I told him I was going to throw the football a little above the bar. The first throw touched the bar and bounced on over. Wilt asked me if I wanted him to start catching the ball. . . .

"I threw again and he leaped up, flat-footed, and caught it. I kept throwing. After a bit he was catching the ball with one hand like he was wearing a baseball glove.

"How could you possibly defense him? You'd have to have a 7-foot defensive back. . . . I was all ready to sign him for the Kansas City Chiefs, but his basketball club had other plans for him."


For the record, some crazy defensive back or LB would probably have taken out his knees, as the NFL was rather brutal back in those days. The tallest receiver to make an impact in NFL history was 6'8" Harold Carmichael of the Eagles. He only player WR because he couldn't keep on enough weight to play at his original position, TE, and he was easy to leverage in the ground game due to his height.

What year was the Chiefs story? Based on the 280 lbs listed I’d guess in the neighborhood of ‘66. He didn’t weigh that much early on, and I think was closer on to 300 lbs by the early 70’s

[SkyHookFTW]

There is no video of it as not all games were recorded back then, but apparently in '66 (I believe) against the Pistons, Wilt blocked 26 shots.

There is video footage of the game in 1969 against the Suns (Wilt was 32) where he blocked 23 shots.

There are several other games where he unofficially recorded 20+ blocks.

I don't think people realize how long Wilt was. In modern shoes, he had the same standing reach as Rudy Gobert, who is the longest player in the league today. That is in addition to being 50-100lbs stronger than every center in the league currently, as well as probably faster (run speed wise he ran a 4.4 40' which is the same as LeBron), better leaper (40+ vert). He would be the most athletic center in the league today and it wouldn't be close.

Wilt might have had more block opportunities back then than today, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be the most dominant rim protector in any era. He was so athletic he could block DUNKS and did regularly. People would literally go flying off a block from him. He could CATCH BLOCKS ONE HANDED IN THE AIR and did so on a number of occasions.

I could never find evidence that Wilt ran a 4.4 40, but we have definite proof that during a workout for the NFL (AFL), Wilt, at 280 pounds, ran a 4.6 40 in bare feet. The Kansas City Chiefs wanted to sign him after he had a private workout with then-Chiefs coach NFL HoFer Hank Stram. This is from Stram himself:

"I had him stand under the crossbar of the goal posts. I told him I was going to throw the football a little above the bar. The first throw touched the bar and bounced on over. Wilt asked me if I wanted him to start catching the ball. . . .

"I threw again and he leaped up, flat-footed, and caught it. I kept throwing. After a bit he was catching the ball with one hand like he was wearing a baseball glove.

"How could you possibly defense him? You'd have to have a 7-foot defensive back. . . . I was all ready to sign him for the Kansas City Chiefs, but his basketball club had other plans for him."


For the record, some crazy defensive back or LB would probably have taken out his knees, as the NFL was rather brutal back in those days. The tallest receiver to make an impact in NFL history was 6'8" Harold Carmichael of the Eagles. He only player WR because he couldn't keep on enough weight to play at his original position, TE, and he was easy to leverage in the ground game due to his height.

What year was the Chiefs story? Based on the 280 lbs listed I’d guess in the neighborhood of ‘66. He didn’t weigh that much early on, and I think was closer on to 300 lbs by the early 70’s

1964. It's in Hank Stram's book. Wilt put on a few pounds during the offseason and dropped it when the NBA season kicked in. To my knowledge he played at 275 in 1966. No unusual for Wilt, as his last few years he hit 325-328 from lifting but dropped to 310-315 during the season. I asked Wilt how heavy he was at the end and he told me his playing weight in 73 was 315.

[mstat13shuh]

Thanks for responding countryboy667.

Pertaining to the Cincy game during the Oscar era when you stopped counting Wilt's blocks after 14, do you recall other details in that game? If so, perhaps I could narrow the dates down.

[mstat13shuh]

"There is no video of it as not all games were recorded back then, but apparently in '66 (I believe) against the Pistons, Wilt blocked 26 shots.

There is video footage of the game in 1969 against the Suns (Wilt was 32) where he blocked 23 shots."

Thanks for the observations kendogg.

Two follow-ups:

1) I may be wrong about the date of the 26 block game vs Detroit in '66, and if so please correct me, but I DO know the Phi. Daily News quoted in the Dec. 17, 1966 game vs Detroit that Wilt "played like a demon on defense." I also know that a youtube observer todl me a number of years ago that he saw Wilt block 23 vs Detroit, possibly in the 66-67 season as well, unfortunately he couldn't narrow it down any further. Perhaps this is the same 26 block game in '66 that you are referencing.

2) In regards to the '69 game at Phoenix, it was actually on Xmas day '68. If any of you have watched "Milestones: Record-Breakers of the NBA" video/DVD, Wilt actually references that game when the subject of blocks arises "I used to remember in Phoenix I blocked 25, 26 shots on Christmas day. And all the guys were saying like "Man Wilt, you just wouldn't let us shoot a ball."

Now to my question:

I was not alive in '68, so I wouldn't have been able to count the blocks during that particular game, unfortunately.
However, I DO know this was a nationally televised game, so if one tells me there is video footage of this game, I also need to know if there is COMPLETE game footage, as I have yet to determine this. What exactly do you know?

[countryboy667]

Thanks for responding countryboy667.

Pertaining to the Cincy game during the Oscar era when you stopped counting Wilt's blocks after 14, do you recall other details in that game? If so, perhaps I could narrow the dates down.

I remember that my hero back then (Oscar) had what even for him was a better than average night, and Wilt maybe didn't score as much as usual. This was when Wilt was with the Warriors, though oddly I don't remember seeing Thurmond, also a Warrior, which is odd because he had been the star along with Howie Komives at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, which was not that far from where I lived. My memory is still good (no 'old-timers' as of yet) but that was one hell of a long time ago (I'm now 74) and counting the blocked shots started out as a game which I got bored of after a while. But I do remember I stopped at 14.

That was the golden age of basketball in Ohio...players in Ohio colleges in that general era included Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, Wayne Embry, Nate Thurmond, and Howie Komives. The national championship for three straight years involved Ohio schools--Ohio State all three years, and matchups in the title game between Ohio State and the University of Cincinnati for two of those years.

I didn't like Wilt back then. He was always beating up on my Royals. It's only as I matured that I realized how incredibly special he was and learned to appreciate him. Reading his books made me realize he was not only a very special athlete, but a pretty damned decent human being as well. Anyone who wants to really understand Wilt needs to read those books, and also the recent biography of him. Yeah, he had an ego--but he also usually gave credit to opponents when it was warranted. And, oddly, considering he allegedly bedded 20,000 women, he was surprisingly respectful of women all throughout his life, and a major booster of women's sports.

It pisses me off when people here who never saw him play downrate how incredible he was. IMO, in his prime, he would still absolutely DESTROY the NBA today--he was THAT good. There's no-one in the league today--Durant, Lebron, the Greek Freak-no-one--in his class as an athlete. I'll say it again. NO-ONE.

[Mazter]

Relax, there is no need to get your blood pressure all worked up because some random strangers on the internet don't share the same opinion as you. Especially not at your age. You do realize that there are some games of the 60's on the internet to watch, right. And given expressions "I'm surprised actually..." and "I don't remember seeing Thurmond", how much value do we need to give the "I actually saw them play" card as 50+ years have passed?

I do think Wilt was a great player, he did things in his era no one did. But some things are being told extremely exaggerated. And context can be easily found. Take these blocks for example. I certainly believe 20 blocks in a game would be well possible in that era. I also believe that if they were officially counted Wilt and Russell would top the all time list. But there are 75 Lakers games on the list in which Wilt averaged 8.2 blocks. In 47 of them he had 7 or more blocks. I'm ready to believe that might be close to his average but would have liked to see some of that greatness. I found 5 Wilt matches with the Lakers on yt which are on that list. He averaged only 4 bpg in those games with none of them with more then 6. What are the odds of that.

Now there was this game 5 of the 1972 Finals I just watched. During the first quarter Wilt had 1 goal tending (announced at first as a block) and 1 (not called) which was annulled by a travelling call 1 second earlier. In the second quarter he had 2 blocks. To my surprise half way the third the commentator announced that Wilt had 5 blocks. He later has another block and shortly after the stat 20 points and 6 blocks pops up on the screen. During the 4th he has 2 more blocks before the footage's end with about 5 minutes left on the game clock. So I counted 5 blocks, the commentators announced only 5 blocks, the list says 6 blocks and according to the broadcast statistician he would have had 8, with 5 minutes left. This could have been me not paying full attention to the game 100% of the time. But what are the odds of the commentators not announcing 3 blocks or the list not reporting 2 of them.

Makes you wonder whether all those reported blocks would really have been official blocks.

[kendogg]

Thurmond didn't play much in '64 as a rookie despite being the 3rd pick and a future HoF because he was stuck behind Wilt who played 45 mins a game. So Thurmond played mostly PF for 1.5 seasons before Wilt was traded from the Warriors to the 76ers halfway through the '65 season.

Yes Wilt got a lot of blocks due to how many were available in his era and they weren't always consistently called. When you are as long and athletic as Wilt there are probably a lot of blocks that he can swat at the apex that are close calls to whether they are a goaltend or not.

The thing is, none of this counts for the presence he had as an interior player (the same reason I find myself constantly having to defend Shaq's rim protection skills). When you can block dunks, after a guy gets knocked to the ground hard once they probably think twice about driving again or maybe decide to go for a pull-up jumper instead. Guys would literally avoid the paint when he's in the game. That warps offenses to a huge degree and makes them easier to defend.

[liamliam1234]

Relax, there is no need to get your blood pressure all worked up because some random strangers on the internet don't share the same opinion as you. Especially not at your age.

Oh, yes, condescend more, that really helps your case against someone who followed the games in the moment.

You do realize that there are some games of the 60's on the internet to watch, right.

You do realise that does not remotely equal the viewing experience of being around watch games as they happened, right.

given expressions "I'm surprised actually..." and "I don't remember seeing Thurmond", how much value do we need to give the "I actually saw them play" card as 50+ years have passed?

Wow, his recollection was not literally perfect play for play. You sure showed him.

I do think Wilt was a great player, he did things in his era no one did. But some things are being told extremely exaggerated. And context can be easily found. Take these blocks for example. I certainly believe 20 blocks in a game would be well possible in that era. I also believe that if they were officially counted Wilt and Russell would top the all time list. But there are 75 Lakers games on the list in which Wilt averaged 8.2 blocks. In 47 of them he had 7 or more blocks. I'm ready to believe that might be close to his average but would have liked to see some of that greatness. I found 5 Wilt matches with the Lakers on yt which are on that list. He averaged only 4 bpg in those games with none of them with more then 6. What are the odds of that.

“Five random games I watched did not match this narrative, so now I doubt your entire decade of viewing experience.”

[mstat13shuh]

"I remember that my hero back then (Oscar) had what even for him was a better than average night, and Wilt maybe didn't score as much as usual. This was when Wilt was with the Warriors, though oddly I don't remember seeing Thurmond, also a Warrior, which is odd because he had been the star along with Howie Komives at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, which was not that far from where I lived. My memory is still good (no 'old-timers' as of yet) but that was one hell of a long time ago (I'm now 74) and counting the blocked shots started out as a game which I got bored of after a while. But I do remember I stopped at 14.

That was the golden age of basketball in Ohio...players in Ohio colleges in that general era included Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, Wayne Embry, Nate Thurmond, and Howie Komives. The national championship for three straight years involved Ohio schools--Ohio State all three years, and matchups in the title game between Ohio State and the University of Cincinnati for two of those years.

I didn't like Wilt back then. He was always beating up on my Royals. It's only as I matured that I realized how incredibly special he was and learned to appreciate him. Reading his books made me realize he was not only a very special athlete, but a pretty damned decent human being as well. Anyone who wants to really understand Wilt needs to read those books, and also the recent biography of him. Yeah, he had an ego--but he also usually gave credit to opponents when it was warranted. And, oddly, considering he allegedly bedded 20,000 women, he was surprisingly respectful of women all throughout his life, and a major booster of women's sports.

It pisses me off when people here who never saw him play downrate how incredible he was. IMO, in his prime, he would still absolutely DESTROY the NBA today--he was THAT good. There's no-one in the league today--Durant, Lebron, the Greek Freak-no-one--in his class as an athlete. I'll say it again. NO-ONE."

Based upon what I've read & heard from people like yourself whom saw him master various aspects of his craft(on AND off the court), particularly in your era, I would totally agree with you here.

I guess maybe I should've posed the following questions initially:

1)Which season was the 14 blk game?
2)Was Wilt a Philly Warrior or SF Warrior?
3)At what point in the game did you stop counting Wilt's blocks?
4)What do you recall the final score of the game maybe being(estimate)?
5)Was the game in Cincinnati Gardens, or at a neutral site, like Lima OH for instance?

Either way, thanks again countryboy667 for the response, much appreciated.

[countryboy667]

"I remember that my hero back then (Oscar) had what even for him was a better than average night, and Wilt maybe didn't score as much as usual. This was when Wilt was with the Warriors, though oddly I don't remember seeing Thurmond, also a Warrior, which is odd because he had been the star along with Howie Komives at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, which was not that far from where I lived. My memory is still good (no 'old-timers' as of yet) but that was one hell of a long time ago (I'm now 74) and counting the blocked shots started out as a game which I got bored of after a while. But I do remember I stopped at 14.

That was the golden age of basketball in Ohio...players in Ohio colleges in that general era included Jerry Lucas, John Havlicek, Wayne Embry, Nate Thurmond, and Howie Komives. The national championship for three straight years involved Ohio schools--Ohio State all three years, and matchups in the title game between Ohio State and the University of Cincinnati for two of those years.

I didn't like Wilt back then. He was always beating up on my Royals. It's only as I matured that I realized how incredibly special he was and learned to appreciate him. Reading his books made me realize he was not only a very special athlete, but a pretty damned decent human being as well. Anyone who wants to really understand Wilt needs to read those books, and also the recent biography of him. Yeah, he had an ego--but he also usually gave credit to opponents when it was warranted. And, oddly, considering he allegedly bedded 20,000 women, he was surprisingly respectful of women all throughout his life, and a major booster of women's sports.

It pisses me off when people here who never saw him play downrate how incredible he was. IMO, in his prime, he would still absolutely DESTROY the NBA today--he was THAT good. There's no-one in the league today--Durant, Lebron, the Greek Freak-no-one--in his class as an athlete. I'll say it again. NO-ONE."

Based upon what I've read & heard from people like yourself whom saw him master various aspects of his craft(on AND off the court), particularly in your era, I would totally agree with you here.

I guess maybe I should've posed the following questions initially:

1)Which season was the 14 blk game?
2)Was Wilt a Philly Warrior or SF Warrior?
3)At what point in the game did you stop counting Wilt's blocks?
4)What do you recall the final score of the game maybe being(estimate)?
5)Was the game in Cincinnati Gardens, or at a neutral site, like Lima OH for instance?

Either way, thanks again countryboy667 for the response, much appreciated.

It was when he was in SF. I think it was sometime after the half I stopped counting, because we were getting refreshments, and the game was in Cincinnati. I'm thinking it was the 63-64 season, Thurmond's rookie year. I was just out of HS and in college. I have no idea what the final score was, but Cincy lost.

[mstat13shuh]

"It was when he was in SF. I think it was sometime after the half I stopped counting, because we were getting refreshments, and the game was in Cincinnati. I'm thinking it was the 63-64 season, Thurmond's rookie year. I was just out of HS and in college. I have no idea what the final score was, but Cincy lost."

If the above game in question was in the 63-64 season, at Cincy, Cincy losing, maybe Wilt didn't score as much as usual, Oscar had for him was a better than average night, then I believe it was the following date:

Feb. 19, 1964

SFW 108 CIN 101

Wilt: 48min 32pts 19reb, 6ast(by old criteria)& like you said above, 14blk with a few minutes elapsed in 3rd qtr
Oscar: 48min 29pts 7reb, 14ast(by old criteria)

Hopefully the above details convince you with my assertion that this is the game in question you were referencing.

Thanks again countryboy667

[freethedevil]

Relax, there is no need to get your blood pressure all worked up because some random strangers on the internet don't share the same opinion as you. Especially not at your age.

Oh, yes, condescend more, that really helps your case against someone who followed the games in the moment.

You do realize that there are some games of the 60's on the internet to watch, right.

You do realise that does not remotely equal the viewing experience of being around watch games as they happened, right.

given expressions "I'm surprised actually..." and "I don't remember seeing Thurmond", how much value do we need to give the "I actually saw them play" card as 50+ years have passed?

Wow, his recollection was not literally perfect play for play. You sure showed him.

I do think Wilt was a great player, he did things in his era no one did. But some things are being told extremely exaggerated. And context can be easily found. Take these blocks for example. I certainly believe 20 blocks in a game would be well possible in that era. I also believe that if they were officially counted Wilt and Russell would top the all time list. But there are 75 Lakers games on the list in which Wilt averaged 8.2 blocks. In 47 of them he had 7 or more blocks. I'm ready to believe that might be close to his average but would have liked to see some of that greatness. I found 5 Wilt matches with the Lakers on yt which are on that list. He averaged only 4 bpg in those games with none of them with more then 6. What are the odds of that.

“Five random games I watched did not match this narrative, so now I doubt your entire decade of viewing experience.”

Saying you watched the games isn't a valid substitute for meeting the burden of proof, sorry.

[70sFan]

Relax, there is no need to get your blood pressure all worked up because some random strangers on the internet don't share the same opinion as you. Especially not at your age.

Oh, yes, condescend more, that really helps your case against someone who followed the games in the moment.

You do realize that there are some games of the 60's on the internet to watch, right.

You do realise that does not remotely equal the viewing experience of being around watch games as they happened, right.

given expressions "I'm surprised actually..." and "I don't remember seeing Thurmond", how much value do we need to give the "I actually saw them play" card as 50+ years have passed?

Wow, his recollection was not literally perfect play for play. You sure showed him.

I do think Wilt was a great player, he did things in his era no one did. But some things are being told extremely exaggerated. And context can be easily found. Take these blocks for example. I certainly believe 20 blocks in a game would be well possible in that era. I also believe that if they were officially counted Wilt and Russell would top the all time list. But there are 75 Lakers games on the list in which Wilt averaged 8.2 blocks. In 47 of them he had 7 or more blocks. I'm ready to believe that might be close to his average but would have liked to see some of that greatness. I found 5 Wilt matches with the Lakers on yt which are on that list. He averaged only 4 bpg in those games with none of them with more then 6. What are the odds of that.

“Five random games I watched did not match this narrative, so now I doubt your entire decade of viewing experience.”

Saying you watched the games isn't a valid substitute for meeting the burden of proof, sorry.

What burden of proof? We don't have any proofs in this aspect, we don't have enough tape or stats to call them "proof".

[freethedevil]

Oh, yes, condescend more, that really helps your case against someone who followed the games in the moment.



You do realise that does not remotely equal the viewing experience of being around watch games as they happened, right.



Wow, his recollection was not literally perfect play for play. You sure showed him.



“Five random games I watched did not match this narrative, so now I doubt your entire decade of viewing experience.”

Saying you watched the games isn't a valid substitute for meeting the burden of proof, sorry.

What burden of proof? We don't have any proofs in this aspect, we don't have enough tape or stats to call them "proof".

Correct. And if you lack the tape or stats to prove your argument, you should really refrain from treating yourself as an authority of the matter. Common sense, no?

Not saying you said this, but liam seems to imply "i watched them play" warrants being treated as an authority

[liamliam1234]

More of authority than someone who did not watch any footage, or in this case, watched five random games.

[Mazter]

More of authority than someone who did not watch any footage, or in this case, watched five random games.

It was actually only one game. But if you even didn't get that part, never mind the rest. You are better off believing someone who watched 100's of games but is surprised by the facts or couldn't even recall seeing rookie Thurmond.