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Is Graham Better than Rozier?

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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#41 » by predators » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:18 pm

LofJ wrote:
predators wrote:TBH the only thing Monk has going for him is he's the same age as Kemba was his rookie year. But he isn't going to suddenly grow longer arms to be better on the defensive end. He's shooting like .200 from 3 so he'll probably look better as his that % moves closer to his career average.

Graham is shooting an unsustainable .536 from 3 right now. It'll be interesting to see how he adjusts when he inevitably regresses to the mean.


Monk is 6'4 in shoes, he's bigger and more athletic than both Rozier and Graham.


I meant to be able to guard 2s. Monk's wingspan is also a 6'4" (same as Kemba). Roziers is 6'8" & Grahams is 6'6". Height is only important because taller people generally have longer arms/taller standing reach, but Monk has alligator arms for his height so it doesn't really matter.

He has to play point or learn to play positional defense/shoot like JJ Reddick to be a plus player.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#42 » by yosemiteben » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:21 pm

MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:You **** on him constantly. Let it go.

Then everyone here acknowledged that Kemba outplayed expectations. A LONG time ago Kemba had doubters / critics. Still a long time ago (like 4 seasons ago), Kemba changed their minds with his play.

Yes, you should let it go. It has no more to do with Monk than it does with your opinion of Bacon, Graham, the Martin twins, or any other young player.


I'm talking about Monk. The Kemba stuff was a **** show because it was constant. Fats, you don't like Monk but when a mod leads the charge against a player (as Slam did), it deteriorates and diminishes discourse. The frequency with which you bash Monk results in comments like the one above by Vanderbilt Grad. This isn't the year to annihilate a prospect.

The policy here is that all non-trolling opinions on players are welcome.

We don't scoreboard comments.

We're not going to rehash opinions shared five **** years ago.

Please move on.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#43 » by LofJ » Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:30 pm

predators wrote:
LofJ wrote:
predators wrote:TBH the only thing Monk has going for him is he's the same age as Kemba was his rookie year. But he isn't going to suddenly grow longer arms to be better on the defensive end. He's shooting like .200 from 3 so he'll probably look better as his that % moves closer to his career average.

Graham is shooting an unsustainable .536 from 3 right now. It'll be interesting to see how he adjusts when he inevitably regresses to the mean.


Monk is 6'4 in shoes, he's bigger and more athletic than both Rozier and Graham.


I meant to be able to guard 2s. Monk's wingspan is also a 6'4" (same as Kemba). Roziers is 6'8" & Grahams is 6'6". Height is only important because taller people generally have longer arms/taller standing reach, but Monk has alligator arms for his height so it doesn't really matter.

He has to play point or learn to play positional defense/shoot like JJ Reddick to be a plus player.


That 6'4 wingspan figure was inaccurate, Monk's wingspan is between 6'7 and 6'8.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#44 » by Liver_Pooty » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:35 pm

LofJ wrote:
predators wrote:
LofJ wrote:
Monk is 6'4 in shoes, he's bigger and more athletic than both Rozier and Graham.


I meant to be able to guard 2s. Monk's wingspan is also a 6'4" (same as Kemba). Roziers is 6'8" & Grahams is 6'6". Height is only important because taller people generally have longer arms/taller standing reach, but Monk has alligator arms for his height so it doesn't really matter.

He has to play point or learn to play positional defense/shoot like JJ Reddick to be a plus player.


That 6'4 wingspan figure was inaccurate, Monk's wingspan is between 6'7 and 6'8.


Draft Express had his wingspan at 6'4 during the draft process.
Balllin wrote:Zion Williamson is 6-5, with a 6-10 wingspan. I see him as a slightly better Kenneth Faried.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#45 » by LofJ » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:53 pm

Liver_Pooty wrote:
LofJ wrote:
predators wrote:
I meant to be able to guard 2s. Monk's wingspan is also a 6'4" (same as Kemba). Roziers is 6'8" & Grahams is 6'6". Height is only important because taller people generally have longer arms/taller standing reach, but Monk has alligator arms for his height so it doesn't really matter.

He has to play point or learn to play positional defense/shoot like JJ Reddick to be a plus player.


That 6'4 wingspan figure was inaccurate, Monk's wingspan is between 6'7 and 6'8.


Draft Express had his wingspan at 6'4 during the draft process.


That is the source of the inaccuracy. His wingspan was measured longer than that (6'7) back in 2014 BEFORE he was even in college while he was still growing. Draft Express never bothered to correct it.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#46 » by geraldwallace » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:31 pm

I think the problem with how fans see Monk is he had such huge expectations from us, when we drafted him the majority of Hornets fans thought we drafted a future All-Star and an electric scorer
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#47 » by MasterIchiro » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:05 pm

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:Then everyone here acknowledged that Kemba outplayed expectations. A LONG time ago Kemba had doubters / critics. Still a long time ago (like 4 seasons ago), Kemba changed their minds with his play.

Yes, you should let it go. It has no more to do with Monk than it does with your opinion of Bacon, Graham, the Martin twins, or any other young player.


I'm talking about Monk. The Kemba stuff was a **** show because it was constant. Fats, you don't like Monk but when a mod leads the charge against a player (as Slam did), it deteriorates and diminishes discourse. The frequency with which you bash Monk results in comments like the one above by Vanderbilt Grad. This isn't the year to annihilate a prospect.

The policy here is that all non-trolling opinions on players are welcome.

We don't scoreboard comments.

We're not going to rehash opinions shared five **** years ago.

Please move on.


My point stands on Monk. Mods moderate. They don't inflame and engulf a player with constant attack. Mods have a responsibility to the fans to model constructive criticism and healthy debate. Monk had his best game thus far yet Fats started in on him. Fresh off giving some of us hope by scoring 15, Vanderbilt says Monk sucks. I don't know what your policy is on singling out players, but I hope it doesn't happen with Fats and Monk. If you don't have a policy for it, I urge you to take greater care in moderation.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#48 » by yosemiteben » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:28 am

MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
I'm talking about Monk. The Kemba stuff was a **** show because it was constant. Fats, you don't like Monk but when a mod leads the charge against a player (as Slam did), it deteriorates and diminishes discourse. The frequency with which you bash Monk results in comments like the one above by Vanderbilt Grad. This isn't the year to annihilate a prospect.

The policy here is that all non-trolling opinions on players are welcome.

We don't scoreboard comments.

We're not going to rehash opinions shared five **** years ago.

Please move on.


My point stands on Monk. Mods moderate. They don't inflame and engulf a player with constant attack. Mods have a responsibility to the fans to model constructive criticism and healthy debate. Monk had his best game thus far yet Fats started in on him. Fresh off giving some of us hope by scoring 15, Vanderbilt says Monk sucks. I don't know what your policy is on singling out players, but I hope it doesn't happen with Fats and Monk. If you don't have a policy for it, I urge you to take greater care in moderation.

Two responses:

(1) I'm not super interested in your views on proper moderator posting habits. If you have concern that a mod is not fulfilling their duties, my suggestion is that you first re-read the rules and then, if you still think a mod is violating a rule, you should (a) PM that mod, (b) PM all the mods, or (c) PM Howard and discuss the conduct that you feel is inappropriate. Alternatively, you obviously can just stop posting. If you do not choose to stop posting and don't want to address issues with the mod team via PM, that's fine, but backseat moderating / lecturing mods on their responsibilities is not something that will be tolerated.

(2) You asked what our policy is on singling out players. That policy is in the post you responded to. To be clear: The policy here is that all non-trolling opinions on players are welcome. We don't scoreboard comments. We're not going to rehash old opinions shared years ago that are no longer held.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#49 » by BigSlam » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:48 am

I think it’s fair to say that Graham has been better than Rozier so far this regular season (small sample size though).

But which has the higher upside?

And, gun held to your head, who would you want to bank on as a long term solution (eg 3+ years)?


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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#50 » by Vanderbilt_Grad » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:51 am

BigSlam wrote:I think it’s fair to say that Graham has been better than Rozier so far this regular season (small sample size though).

But which has the higher upside?

And, gun held to your head, who would you want to bank on as a long term solution (eg 3+ years)?


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Duh. Felton. He should obvs be starting over Knight.

OK, seriously. Too early to tell, but based on small sample, Graham.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#51 » by MasterIchiro » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:41 am

yosemiteben wrote:
MasterIchiro wrote:
yosemiteben wrote:The policy here is that all non-trolling opinions on players are welcome.

We don't scoreboard comments.

We're not going to rehash opinions shared five **** years ago.

Please move on.


My point stands on Monk. Mods moderate. They don't inflame and engulf a player with constant attack. Mods have a responsibility to the fans to model constructive criticism and healthy debate. Monk had his best game thus far yet Fats started in on him. Fresh off giving some of us hope by scoring 15, Vanderbilt says Monk sucks. I don't know what your policy is on singling out players, but I hope it doesn't happen with Fats and Monk. If you don't have a policy for it, I urge you to take greater care in moderation.

Two responses:

(1) I'm not super interested in your views on proper moderator posting habits. If you have concern that a mod is not fulfilling their duties, my suggestion is that you first re-read the rules and then, if you still think a mod is violating a rule, you should (a) PM that mod, (b) PM all the mods, or (c) PM Howard and discuss the conduct that you feel is inappropriate. Alternatively, you obviously can just stop posting. If you do not choose to stop posting and don't want to address issues with the mod team via PM, that's fine, but backseat moderating / lecturing mods on their responsibilities is not something that will be tolerated.

(2) You asked what our policy is on singling out players. That policy is in the post you responded to. To be clear: The policy here is that all non-trolling opinions on players are welcome. We don't scoreboard comments. We're not going to rehash old opinions shared years ago that are no longer held.


That's what I thought. It's irresponsible. And why have you reposted the stuff about old opinions twice now while in my past 2 posts I've posted about the unnecessary Monk bashing?

No focus about Kemba in my past 2 posts. I'm done talking about Kemba. I'm calling out careless Monk bashing. I'm allowed to disagree with it.

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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#52 » by Liver_Pooty » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:36 am

BigSlam wrote:I think it’s fair to say that Graham has been better than Rozier so far this regular season (small sample size though).

But which has the higher upside?

And, gun held to your head, who would you want to bank on as a long term solution (eg 3+ years)?


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Rozier. I like his defense
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#53 » by predators » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:02 pm

LofJ wrote:
Liver_Pooty wrote:
LofJ wrote:
That 6'4 wingspan figure was inaccurate, Monk's wingspan is between 6'7 and 6'8.


Draft Express had his wingspan at 6'4 during the draft process.


That is the source of the inaccuracy. His wingspan was measured longer than that (6'7) back in 2014 BEFORE he was even in college while he was still growing. Draft Express never bothered to correct it.


I'm ashamed I looked this up but strap on your tin foil hat boys..

He measured at 6'3.5 at Kentucky but Ade & Fox measure 1-2 inches longer at the NBA combine then they did at Kentucky, so I'll concede it could be between 6'5" - 6'6". He measured 1 inch shorter than Fox at Kentucky, so my best estimate would be 1 inch shorter than Fox at the combine so 6'5.5. Oddly enough the other measurements like height matched up perfectly (within .25).

Tin Foil hat conspiracy opinion, Monk would have gone to the Combine and before 12 if he would have measured 6'7" - 6'8".

I also think AAU/Player camps/etc measurements are too pro-player to really be trusted ever.


Sauces:

Kentucky Combine
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2016-Kentucky-Combine-Measurements-and-Analysis-5687/

NBA Draft Combine

https://www.nbadraft.net/2017-nba-draft-combine-measurements
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#54 » by CatgutStitches » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:54 pm

Who cares if he's better than Terry, we have both! Let's look at this comparison, it's more fun! Obviously a SUPER small sample size, but still fun to look at!

Devonte KEMBA
MPG 29.0 34.8
FG% .455 .395
3P% .515 .378
2P% .364 .410
EFG% .609 .487
FT% .882 .889
TRB 3.0 4.8
AST 7.6 3.5
TOV 2.2 2.0
PTS 16.4 24.5
PER 21.5 21.8
TS% .656 .558
WS .6 .6
OBPM 5.3 7.2
DBPM -5.2 -1.6

I have to say... pretty damn impressive play from Graham so far, especially when considering the difference in the supporting casts (supposedly we have the worst roster in the league) and that Graham is coming off the bench. PER and WS are virtually identical, never mind Graham's clear edge in efficiency. Let's just hope he keeps it up... if so 6th man and/or Most Improved are certainly not out of the question. Love his development.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#55 » by Hornet Mania » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:05 pm

I think they're a nice complement to each other, I don't see any need to boost one at the other's expense. The fact they can play together helps, so on night both are playing well (last night for example) they can close it out as a tandem. Otherwise it's a nice luxury when you have a team full of young players to have two young PGs and ride the hot hand.

Their play styles are not really similar either which makes it tough to compare. The things I like about Rozier (very aggressive, awesome twitch athlete) are not the same things I like about Graham (plays at a deliberate pace, knock-down shooter thus far).
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#56 » by euphorbus » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:51 pm

One thing I noticed about Rozier last night is that his three-point shot has a nice arc, but absolutely no spin. His percentage would go up if he could spin it a little, since it means that a few shots that might otherwise just carom off will snuggle closer to the hoop and might fall.

Graham has a bit of spin on the three-pointers, with a really smooth and quick stroke.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#57 » by BigSlam » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:01 pm

euphorbus wrote:One thing I noticed about Rozier last night is that his three-point shot has a nice arc, but absolutely no spin. His percentage would go up if he could spin it a little, since it means that a few shots that might otherwise just carom off will snuggle closer to the hoop and might fall.

Graham has a bit of spin on the three-pointers, with a really smooth and quick stroke.

Great observation.

I also think that Rozier tends to “float” on a lot of his jump shots rather than going straight up and down (a problem Walker also had until he corrected it).


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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#58 » by fatlever » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:18 pm

its crazy how deep grahams range is this year. hes out in steph/dame/trae territory on some of his makes.
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Re: Is Graham Better than Rozier? 

Post#59 » by Rich4114 » Sat Nov 2, 2019 2:32 pm

The fact that this is even a legit question is remarkable. My take on it is this. We are still focusing on specific positions when the game is evolving into a broader set of positions or skill sets. Rozier, Monk, Graham are all ball handling guards. They’re all at their best handling the ball.

In terms of who has been better of the three (yes I know this is Devonte or Rozier but I’m adding Monk to this since he’s been part of the debate) it’s safe to say the best one so far has been Devonte. He has clearly picked up some things playing with Kemba the past two seasons and I think it’s great. It’s a idea for him to model his game after Kemba as well since they’re both undersized and limited in what kind of contact they can take. Devonte has definitely improved his shooting but I’ll also say his assisting is better than Kemba and Rozier.

What we need are playmakers and guys who can make shots. All three of them are and one can make the case that having guys who don’t need to dominate the ball and take all of our shots make everyone else around them better.

Someone else mentioned it, but Bacon is the guy whose spot should be taken by Devonte. Rozier is big enough to play SG mins and you end up having guys at 3-4 positions who can distribute and play make. That continues when Monk comes in off the bench.

However, you need someone to be the primary ball handler for the second unit if you do that and Devonte fits that extremely well. So I wouldn’t mind seeing Monk come in to start at SG and between him and Rozier, Rozier defends the tougher guy.

On the Monk topic, he obviously should have stayed an extra year in UK. That really hurt him more than anyone seems to realize. To compound that, he missed training camp and summer league time and was banished by Clifford who had something against him from the get go likely because he wanted Mitchell during the draft. And to that point, he will always be compared to Mitchell by us and local media because of the fact that it was leaked we wanted Mitchell but that was overruled when the projected top 5 pick Monk unexpectedly fell to us. However, he’s way young and bulked up over the summer. He’s made it a focal point to distribute and he’s not taking terrible shots anymore. He’s trending up.

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